Immortality - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Dwarin Thunderhammer · 12-06-2001, 01:01 PM

I have been reading the silmarillion for the second time recently and a question has beeen growing in my mind recently. Namely this: Was the immortality of the elves their bane? The reason I ask this is because it seems that many of the griefs of the Elves were caused by their long lives.

Firstly because of their long lives they had time to think about the hurts that haven been done to them. Maeglin, Feanor, etc. Their anger eventually got the better of them and they caused great hurt, when a mortal man would have died long ago.

Secondly it seems like the elves got too attached to the objects and places. Feanor and the Silmarils, Thingol and Doraiath, all the Elves and all Middle Earth. Once again their greed had time to brood and fester into something that was hurtfull. Either that or when they lost it they were extremely sorrowfull

Well, that's my point, I know there are many advantages to being immortal and I desire to hear everybody's opinion.

***Mithadan*** · 12-06-2001, 04:50 PM

Good post Dwarin. I need to ponder this one a bit. To give others some cannon fodder, you may be mixing cause and effect.

***Mithadan*** · 12-07-2001, 02:01 PM

I would really like to take a crack at this one but I'm running a raging fever and don't want to be incoherent..... the walls ..... they're moving!

***Mister Underhill*** · 12-07-2001, 02:21 PM

I concur that this is quite an intriguing topic, but I've been focused elsewhere the past few days. Good work Dwarin! I'm sure we'll see some interesting discussion soon.

Feel better, Mith!

***Sharkû*** · 12-07-2001, 03:32 PM

I would disagree that the greed of the Elves was caused by their long lives. Of course the prolonged life compared to Man in fact furthered the grief some certain Elves caused to others and themselves endured. But the reason for this lies not in the nature of immortality; I think this would be a wrong assumption within the cosmology, too.

Such deeds as fueled by the desire for the Silmarils, for example, were just that; and Man proved no more able to resist such cravings than Elves.

As for the other great part, we have the important circumstance of the coming of the Elves to Middle-Earth, even if it originally only means the Noldor:

"And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after."

As for the others, this unfulfilled longing for the Realm of Bliss may be so deeply rooted in the nature of the Elves that it affects even those who have never been to Valinor at all.
Mith (get well, you hear!) probably summed it up quite well with his provisionarily concise statement of 'mixing cause and effect'.

Eol · 12-18-2001, 11:33 AM

I would agree with that time does fester the wound...However I think what Tolkien had made aim to do in his writings was to make the elves to seem real, as real are you and me. He also wanted to indicate there is little difference between an elf and a man. If you take away their bondage to the earth, they would be as human as you and me.

12-06-2001, 01:01 PM	#1
Dwarin Thunderhammer Khazad-Doomed Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: The Green Dragon Posts: 182	Immortality I have been reading the silmarillion for the second time recently and a question has beeen growing in my mind recently. Namely this: Was the immortality of the elves their bane? The reason I ask this is because it seems that many of the griefs of the Elves were caused by their long lives. Firstly because of their long lives they had time to think about the hurts that haven been done to them. Maeglin, Feanor, etc. Their anger eventually got the better of them and they caused great hurt, when a mortal man would have died long ago. Secondly it seems like the elves got too attached to the objects and places. Feanor and the Silmarils, Thingol and Doraiath, all the Elves and all Middle Earth. Once again their greed had time to brood and fester into something that was hurtfull. Either that or when they lost it they were extremely sorrowfull Well, that's my point, I know there are many advantages to being immortal and I desire to hear everybody's opinion. __________________ “Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd aimênu!” Come visit The Rohan RPG! The only RPG to fanfic on the downs! Without law there can be no freedom. Without justice there can be no law.

12-06-2001, 04:50 PM	#2
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,314	Good post Dwarin. I need to ponder this one a bit. To give others some cannon fodder, you may be mixing cause and effect. __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.

12-07-2001, 02:01 PM	#3
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,314	I would really like to take a crack at this one but I'm running a raging fever and don't want to be incoherent..... the walls ..... they're moving! __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.

12-18-2001, 11:33 AM	#6
Eol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The Pacific Northwest - Tir Nan Og Posts: 306	I would agree with that time does fester the wound...However I think what Tolkien had made aim to do in his writings was to make the elves to seem real, as real are you and me. He also wanted to indicate there is little difference between an elf and a man. If you take away their bondage to the earth, they would be as human as you and me. __________________ Mes sana in corpec sano- (lt.) A sound mind in a sound body

12-07-2001, 02:21 PM	#4
*Mister Underhill* Dread Horseman Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Behind you! Posts: 2,743	I concur that this is quite an intriguing topic, but I've been focused elsewhere the past few days. Good work Dwarin! I'm sure we'll see some interesting discussion soon. Feel better, Mith!

12-07-2001, 03:32 PM	#5
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,719	I would disagree that the greed of the Elves was caused by their long lives. Of course the prolonged life compared to Man in fact furthered the grief some certain Elves caused to others and themselves endured. But the reason for this lies not in the nature of immortality; I think this would be a wrong assumption within the cosmology, too. Such deeds as fueled by the desire for the Silmarils, for example, were just that; and Man proved no more able to resist such cravings than Elves. As for the other great part, we have the important circumstance of the coming of the Elves to Middle-Earth, even if it originally only means the Noldor: "And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after." As for the others, this unfulfilled longing for the Realm of Bliss may be so deeply rooted in the nature of the Elves that it affects even those who have never been to Valinor at all. Mith (get well, you hear!) probably summed it up quite well with his provisionarily concise statement of 'mixing cause and effect'.