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Old 07-05-2020, 04:35 PM   #1
Victariongreyjoy
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Would the remaining elvish strongholds help Eomer and his exile riders?

In the movie he gets banished from Rohan. Would the Woodland Realm, Rivendell or Lothlorien give him and the exiles shelter and protection if he travelled there?
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Old 07-05-2020, 05:52 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Victariongreyjoy View Post
In the movie he gets banished from Rohan. Would the Woodland Realm, Rivendell or Lothlorien give him and the exiles shelter and protection if he travelled there?
I have not watched the movie in ages but here is a Books-based answer: until Eomer met Aragorn, Gimli, Legolas, and later some other Elves, he firmly believed, like most of the Men of his time, that Elves are in some ways even more dangerous than Orcs, and it is deadly to have dealings with them. Therefore, it would not even occur to him to seek refuge in an Elven abode.

If he somehow did plead his case in some Elven kingdom, I feel like they would turn a sympathetic ear - I feel that Elves do that whenever a mortal is brave enough to seek them out and speak their case. However, that also requires Eomer to speak to the Elves in the manner of, say, Aragorn in Lorien or Beren in Nargothrond - or even Frodo with Gildor. And he is more likely to take after Boromir in his attitude towards Elves, which would not bode well for him. *cue to notch*

So, in a books-based answer, pre-War Eomer would be highly unlikely to seek aid with Elves, but if he had done it - and properly - they would probably hear him out. As for assistance, well, that's a different question, and depends on what exactly that entails in that alternate reality.
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Old 07-05-2020, 06:38 PM   #3
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I have not watched the movie in ages but here is a Books-based answer: until Eomer met Aragorn, Gimli, Legolas, and later some other Elves, he firmly believed, like most of the Men of his time, that Elves are in some ways even more dangerous than Orcs, and it is deadly to have dealings with them. Therefore, it would not even occur to him to seek refuge in an Elven abode.

If he somehow did plead his case in some Elven kingdom, I feel like they would turn a sympathetic ear - I feel that Elves do that whenever a mortal is brave enough to seek them out and speak their case. However, that also requires Eomer to speak to the Elves in the manner of, say, Aragorn in Lorien or Beren in Nargothrond - or even Frodo with Gildor. And he is more likely to take after Boromir in his attitude towards Elves, which would not bode well for him. *cue to notch*

So, in a books-based answer, pre-War Eomer would be highly unlikely to seek aid with Elves, but if he had done it - and properly - they would probably hear him out. As for assistance, well, that's a different question, and depends on what exactly that entails in that alternate reality.
Do you think a person like Theoden is more suitable negotiator than Eomer? Or even his forefather Eorl the Young?
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Old 07-05-2020, 07:53 PM   #4
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Do you think a person like Theoden is more suitable negotiator than Eomer? Or even his forefather Eorl the Young?
I don't think Theoden's view of Elves is much different than Eomer's - or any of the Rohirrim of their time, before the events of LOTR. It comes down to their cultural attitude towards Elves: we see it exemplified in Eomer, but he just voices the superstition of their people. Besides, being Wormtongue's puppet is a score against Theoden.

As for Eorl, he seemed like a guy willing to try weird and different things, who wasn't content to play it safe. In UT he seems less trustful of Lorien's good intentions than Borondir when he passed its mist, but he was also not particularly convinced that it should be evil. So perhaps if he were to turn into Lorien he would have kept a more open mind, or at least a more courteous manner, than would Eomer.

May I ask you a question in turn: why do you imagine these characters seeking aid in Lorien and other Elven Kingdoms? What would be driving these characters to the situation you describe? Why Elves - as opposed to other Men, who are much more familiar to the Rohirrim? And what would Eomer (Theoden, Eorl) be seeking with these people?
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Old 07-06-2020, 04:03 PM   #5
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I don't think Theoden's view of Elves is much different than Eomer's - or any of the Rohirrim of their time, before the events of LOTR. It comes down to their cultural attitude towards Elves: we see it exemplified in Eomer, but he just voices the superstition of their people. Besides, being Wormtongue's puppet is a score against Theoden.

As for Eorl, he seemed like a guy willing to try weird and different things, who wasn't content to play it safe. In UT he seems less trustful of Lorien's good intentions than Borondir when he passed its mist, but he was also not particularly convinced that it should be evil. So perhaps if he were to turn into Lorien he would have kept a more open mind, or at least a more courteous manner, than would Eomer.

May I ask you a question in turn: why do you imagine these characters seeking aid in Lorien and other Elven Kingdoms? What would be driving these characters to the situation you describe? Why Elves - as opposed to other Men, who are much more familiar to the Rohirrim? And what would Eomer (Theoden, Eorl) be seeking with these people?
Because I think a interaction between Rohan and the elves would be interesting. In the movie, the Rohirrim are being depicted as braver and strong willed than Gondor(unfortunately) Maybe skeptic like Elrond would be more encourage to help Rohan if they came to Rivendell and pleading for their cause. The elves who lived during the first age, when elves fought with the Edain side by side, might see a bit of that strength in the Rohirrim.

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Old 07-06-2020, 04:16 PM   #6
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Because I think a interaction between Rohan and the elves would be interesting. In the movie, the Rohirrim are being depicted as braver and strong willed than Gondor(unfortunately) Maybe skeptic like Elrond would be more encourage to help Rohan if they came to Rivendell and pleading for their cause. The elves who lived during the first age, when elves fought with the Edain side by side, might see a bit of that strength in the Rohirrim.
My issue with that is it seems like wishful thinking reasoning. Eomer will interact with Elves because you want the interaction to happen - but not because Eomer himself has any reason to seek it out. Do you know what I mean? Is there a way the story could have gone differently, in the would of alternate universes and wannabe scenarios, that would make Eomer likely to seek Elves before Gimli turned his head on the right way? Does he end up in Lorien by accident? Does he meet a passing Elf (but who? Legolas is the first in his time that we know to pass through Rohan). He might end up in the neighbouring Lorien by a twist of fortune, and we can hope that he has the sense to speak politely and not wave his sword around while shouting Eorling counter-jinxes. But a trip to Rivendell or Mirkwood requires more backstory. If you were to reinvent the story, what would you have happen to make him undertake such a long journey to a fey land?
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Old 07-06-2020, 04:58 PM   #7
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I agree with G55, at the time you're referring to, whether it's book-Eomer or movie-Eomer, I don't think there's a reason Eomer would seek out the Elves for aid.

Granted, I can't think of a movie reason, because it's not something that's addressed. Even though it's a pretty big plot hole, because after meeting with Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli near Fangorn (I believe that's where it is in the movies), Eomer says "We ride north." So, presumably they passed Lorien, considering Haldir's elves show up to Helm's Deep before Eomer's Rohirrim? Trying to unravel Jackson's plot holes will give me a headache though.

As for more book reasons, why it would most likely be Gondor, Eomer would go. Eomer mentions having seen Boromir once before and was saddened to learn of his death. Also his mother, Theodwyn (Theoden's sister) had ties to Gondor. Their parents were Thengel, who for a time lived in Gondor and married Morwen of Lossarnach.
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Old 07-07-2020, 09:17 AM   #8
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Someone said "if", and my ears pricked up...

The premise is that Eomer is banished from Rohan, and doesn't run into Aragorn et al on his way out. Perhaps Boromir tripped and fell off the Bridge of Khazad-Dum, so the entire Fellowship has headed east. Doesn't matter - all that matters is that they're not in Rohan.

If we're going to send him to meet the Elves, he's going to need a reason - and 'shelter and protection' doesn't cut it. Eomer isn't the type to run scared, so if he's leaving Rohan at all, it's either because a) he feels honour-bound to obey even an unjust command, or b) he has a plan to take the country back.

With that in mind, let's see if we can take him to see the Elves?

-Mirkwood: The easiest way to get Eomer into proximity with Mirkwood is to send him up Anduin to the old Éothéod. He's utterly convinced that he's failed his king, so he's straight-up leaving it all behind. He heads all the way to northern Mirkwood to reclaim the ancient capital of Framsburg and found a new kingdom.

If we assume the West doesn't fall in this scenario, and the Ring is still destroyed, then Eomer's new kingdom will be perfectly positioned to tap into the Mirkwood-Esgaroth-Dale trade route come the Fourth Age. All of those settlements were afflicted by the war, so a new, unbattered economy (especially one that may be able to supply dragon gold from the cold-wyrms of the Withered Heath, a la Fram) is going to do well. So he'll have a nice trade relationship with Thranduil.

He probably feels a bit guilty about the way Rohan was destroyed by Uruks, though. And I doubt War-Queen Eowyn will ever forgive him.

-Rivendell: This is the tricky one. How do we get Eomer to the House of Elrond? Well... let's send him earlier! While Boromir is riding through Rohan on his mission to take Faramir's dream to Imladris, his horse trips on a rock. Poor Boromir breaks both his legs, and Eomer (who was on rock-clearing duty that week) feels honour-bound to take up his quest on his behalf. Off he goes, and winds up at the Council of Elrond.

Let's say he joins the Fellowship, but ducks out before they enter Moria; we know he's kind of spooked by haunted caves. He probably justifies it as taking word to Theoden and Denethor. Unfortunately, by the time he arrives, Theoden is already well under Saruman's influence, and kicks him out.

Would he go all the way back to Rivendell? I think maybe - if he knew Saruman was involved. Taking word to the Wise that Saruman was in full Evil Overlord mode might have seemed like a good idea, especially if the Riders now believe Eomer abandoned them and so won't follow him anyway. Elrond, needless to say, would be happy to take him in, but wouldn't really do anything to help.

-Lorien: Far and away the easiest. "If the Wizard of the Ironstone Tower has ensorcelled our uncle," says Eowyn as Eomer prepares to leave, "then might not the Witch of Dwimordene restore him to his mind?"

Would Galadriel help? I think she'd be up for feeding and watering Eomer's band of adventurers, but she's not one to offer direct military aid. More likely she'd give him some words of wisdom, like "The voice of Saruman is a WORM that the TONGUES of Men should not repeat", in the hopes that he'd get the hint and go throw Grima off a cliff.

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Old 07-07-2020, 04:59 PM   #9
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I agree with G55, at the time you're referring to, whether it's book-Eomer or movie-Eomer, I don't think there's a reason Eomer would seek out the Elves for aid.

Granted, I can't think of a movie reason, because it's not something that's addressed. Even though it's a pretty big plot hole, because after meeting with Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli near Fangorn (I believe that's where it is in the movies), Eomer says "We ride north." So, presumably they passed Lorien, considering Haldir's elves show up to Helm's Deep before Eomer's Rohirrim? Trying to unravel Jackson's plot holes will give me a headache though.

As for more book reasons, why it would most likely be Gondor, Eomer would go. Eomer mentions having seen Boromir once before and was saddened to learn of his death. Also his mother, Theodwyn (Theoden's sister) had ties to Gondor. Their parents were Thengel, who for a time lived in Gondor and married Morwen of Lossarnach.
Why didn't Rohan and Gondor in the very late T.A have any contact with the elves, except for Lake Town with Thranduil.

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Old 07-08-2020, 07:47 AM   #10
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Elves and Men had drifted apart in the three millennia since the Last Alliance. The Elves kept to themselves and thought it best that mortals and immortals not mingle (save in the house of the half-Elf Elrond); and Lorien in particular valued armed secrecy, a latter-day Doriath. Not that other Elves were much more outgoing; the behavior of the Wood-elves in The Hobbit would have been normal, not something specially cooked up for Thorin & Co. While the interests of commerce did generate contact (the raft-Elves' trade with Lake-town), note that the Elves visited Esgaroth but not, apparently, vice-versa; Men were not welcome within Thranduil's borders.

And Men, naturally, were suspicious of that which they did not understand and thought alien, hence the superstitious dread exhibited by the Rohirrim. Men of Gondor, or at least the upper classes, would not have been so narrow-minded; but it's clear from Boromir's dream/mission and Denethor's advice that neither knew anything even of Rivendell save as a legendary Shangri-la somewhere in the North. It's fair to say that their attitude would have been one of superstitious awe rather than superstitious dread.
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Old 07-08-2020, 08:41 AM   #11
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Why didn't Rohan and Gondor in the very late T.A have any contacts with the elves, except for Lake Town with Thranduil.
William Cloud Hicklin has covered the main reason, but I think another is that we all tend to think of Gondor in terms of Minas Tirith. That's actually almost completely wrong: Gondor really consists of a wide country with multiple cities south of the White Mountains, plus a couple of forts north of them. It's only the fact that one of those forts is the City of the Kings that makes them relevant at all. They don't trade north, because their whole kingdom is oriented to the south.

Tolkien understandably didn't talk much about trade routes, but the main commercial highway for Gondor has to be Anduin. Goods from the countryside are shipped down the Seven Rivers to Anduin, then up or down to Pelargir, Dol Amroth, or Minas Tirith. Goods from Harad (in the days when those trade routes were open) arrive by ship to Dol Amroth or Pelargir. Goods from Rohan come in to Minas Tirith, and are then sent south by river (and I would bet the Rohirrim travel to Mundburg, rather than Gondor sending traders to the Riddermark). Everything is focussed on Anduin. There simply isn't the capacity to send trade caravans north overland to Mirkwood - nor much need, since as far as we know the only thing Thranduil imported was food and drink, and he could get those cheaper from the Lake-Men.

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Old 07-08-2020, 10:10 AM   #12
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Elves and Men had drifted apart in the three millennia since the Last Alliance. The Elves kept to themselves and thought it best that mortals and immortals not mingle (save in the house of the half-Elf Elrond); and Lorien in particular valued armed secrecy, a latter-day Doriath. Not that other Elves were much more outgoing; the behavior of the Wood-elves in The Hobbit would have been normal, not something specially cooked up for Thorin & Co. While the interests of commerce did generate contact (the raft-Elves' trade with Lake-town), note that the Elves visited Esgaroth but not, apparently, vice-versa; Men were not welcome within Thranduil's borders.

And Men, naturally, were suspicious of that which they did not understand and thought alien, hence the superstitious dread exhibited by the Rohirrim. Men of Gondor, or at least the upper classes, would not have been so narrow-minded; but it's clear from Boromir's dream/mission and Denethor's advice that neither knew anything even of Rivendell save as a legendary Shangri-la somewhere in the North. It's fair to say that their attitude would have been one of superstitious awe rather than superstitious dread.
Could the loss of the king of Gondor, Earnur and the destruction of Arnor, be one of the main reasons why men and elves drifted away from each other?
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Old 07-08-2020, 10:24 AM   #13
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Northmen of Rhovanion

I read that Rohan's ancestor, the Northmen of Rhovanion, helped the host of the west against the final assault of Angmar. So in the early period of the third age, middle-men were used to seeing elves I suppose?
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Old 07-08-2020, 12:55 PM   #14
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Could the loss of the king of Gondor, Earnur and the destruction of Arnor, be one of the main reasons why men and elves drifted away from each other?
Definitely, it's a related topic if not definitively--and the last recorded Elf/Gondorian encounter was Eärnur's conversation with Glorfindel when Gondor's fleet showed up too late save Arthedain.

Eriador, far more so than the lands about the Bay of Belfalas, had some intermingling of Elves and Men. We don't know for sure how much intercourse the Elves and Arnor had, but we know there was SOME--and after the fall of Arthedain, the Rangers continue it (and it's possible this was an increase from before). Rivendell, Eregion, and Lindon all directly border Arnor and Gildor's company is proof of Elves tromping around in the heart of Arnor.

Gondor, on the other hand, was never much populated in Calenardhon, its closest land bordering Lórien or Mirkwood, and there is a gap even there. It DID have Elves still using the havens of Dol Amroth at least until its titular king sailed from there, but all these Elves--Mirkwood, Lórien, and Amroth--are Silvan Elves, while the Elves of Eriador were chiefly a Beleriandic mix of Noldor/Sindar. As much as we talk about the superstitions of Men regarding the Elves, there does seem to be a bit of a reverse case amongst the Elves: if the Dúnedain are the Men who lean closest to the Elves, the Noldor/Sindar equally lean closer to involvement with Men than the Silvan Elves, whose attitude is to ignore them more completely.
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Old 07-09-2020, 09:59 AM   #15
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Rivendell, Eregion, and Lindon all directly border Arnor
Eregion was long, long gone by the time Arnor was founded. Destroyed ca. SA 1600.
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Old 07-09-2020, 10:01 AM   #16
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In the movie he gets banished from Rohan. Would the Woodland Realm....
Just one of my poet curmudgeonly peeves, but "Woodland Realm" is a movie-ism like "Fell Beasts."
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Old 07-09-2020, 11:07 AM   #17
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Just one of my poet curmudgeonly peeves, but "Woodland Realm" is a movie-ism like "Fell Beasts."
Whaaaat. No. Whaaaat?

Okay, I went trawling, and the term is used: Aragorn says it in TTT2 "The Riders of Rohan". "One only of us is an Elf, Legolas from the Woodland Realm in distant Mirkwood." I don't have a hardcopy of the books right now, so I can't check if the capitalisation appears in print, but it is in this version.

You may well be right that the movie is responsible for its prominence, though; Northern Mirkwood is also used (at the Council of Elrond), and seems a more obvious country name.

Interestingly, The Hobbit is kind of vague on whether N. Mirkwood is even a country. Thranduil's Halls are introduced with "In a great cave... there lived at this time their greatest king", which implies not only other Kings of the Wood-Elves, but also that Thranduil may move around.

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Old 07-09-2020, 11:45 AM   #18
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Well, Tolkien used the term, as he did "fell beast," but in both cases without capitals and as a mere descriptive phrase. A realm, which was in woodlands, rather like a beast, which was fell (deadly, fearsome). It was the screenwriters who somehow converted them into proper names.

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"Greatest" king is interesting, since it implies there were others. This makes little sense in the developed post-LR history, but did make some more sense when TH was written, and was kinda-sorta-maybe set in First Age Beleriand, and Thingol (whom the Elvenking more or less was) could be considered the "greatest" (given that this was post Beren and Luthien and thus after Fingolfin and Finrod were dead). Remember that at this early stage in the legendarium, the people of Beleriand or Ilkorins were not Eldar; nor were the Wood-elves even after TH was published until their later promotion from Avari to Nandor.
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Old 07-09-2020, 05:09 PM   #19
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Eregion was long, long gone by the time Arnor was founded. Destroyed ca. SA 1600.
Okay, fair enough in terms of Eregion having a direct impact on Arnor--there obviously wasn't time travelling commerce between the two. But even desolate, Hollin *is* one of the countries that directly bordered Arnor, and it's not as if anyone else lived there in the 3rd Age to displace the Elvish associations of the region (as could be argued with the Silvan colony on the Bay of Belfalas)--and though Eregion by itself proves pretty much nothing, it is a bit of extra weight in the bucket of the argument I was making: Eriador was Elf country (and Elves who would interact with humans) in a ways the lands about the White Mountains were not.
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