Ulmo

[Secret Fire]

I have recently begun re-reading the unfinished tales, adn coupled withmy UT and LOTR, along with the Silmarillion, I have come to realize three major points:
Eru Lluvatar closely instructed Ulmo in the art of singing before the beginning of the world, giving him more power and foresight than even Manwe.
Ulmo has power over all the waters of the world [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] , what a shock, and therefore able to "control" and perceive many of the movements in the world and his knowledge was deep, aiding his foresight, may I say a rival to Manwe's eagles. Although he did remove himself to the outer waters, he was still able to have impact on the movements if the world in the second age.
In the second and third ages, Ulmo was the most loyal vala to the plights of men and elves, aiding them in their quests, from tuor to , may I bravely state Aragorn with the favorable conditions for the ship trek and giving news to Faramir of Boromir (yes, perhaps a stretch)
Because of these realizations, I see Ulmo as the vala most true to his original intention, to protect Middle Earth and the like. If any of you have any ideas, just tell me, this is completely open, so any ideas on Ulmo are desired. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

That's a fairly comprehensive summary of this god, yes. In fact I've not really got anything more to add =).
Enjoy the site, hope you stick around.

[Secret Fire]

Thanks, well, actually I have been a member for quite a while, but decided to change user names because when I changed computers, I lost my old password. Hopefully we can spark some discussion with this topic. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[Legolas]

Eru Lluvatar closely instructed Ulmo in the art of singing before the beginning of the world, giving him more power and foresight than even Manwe.

I see Ulmo as the vala most true to his original intention, to protect Middle Earth and the like.

I'm not sure where to start - most of this seems to be misconception. Ulmo is my favourite Vala and definitely most actively involved aiding the Children (so far as we are aware), but Ulmo was not more powerful than Manwe. Together they were closest to Eru's will, but Manwe more so than Ulmo. He is not mentioned nearly as much because of his detached role from the histories; it is important to keep in mind that the history of Middle-earth as we know it is not written from the perspective of some omniscient outsider, but [mostly] elves [who had much direct contact with Ulmo in their first years of Arda]. Under such circumstances, the actions of Manwe remain very unknown to us. It's also important to note that Manwe was so in tune with Eru's will and consequently good that he could not percieve evil; being bound to Eru's will, he was forced to believe things stated as fact (so long as he did not know of proof against). This is what seemed "weak" and "stupid" to many when Melkor was let loose... I encourage to read Tolkien's essay Ósanwe-kenta. Also, the chief mission of the Valar was not to "protect" Middle-earth, but govern it. The only protection Middle-earth needed was against itself (except for Melkor's doings); who then is to fight this war?

Here are some of the passages that led me to the above conclusions.

From The Silmarillion:

And Manwë and Ulmo have from the beginning been allied, and in all things have served most faithfully the purpose of Ilúvatar.

Manwë and Melkor were brethren in the thought of Ilúvatar. The mightiest of those Ainur who came into the World was in his beginning Melkor; but Manwë is dearest to Ilúvatar and understands most clearly his purposes.

Ulmo is the Lord of Waters. He is alone. [...] He is next in might to Manwë, [/b]

But Manwë Súlimo, highest and holiest of the Valar, sat upon the borders of Aman, forsaking not in his thought the Outer Lands. For his throne was set in majesty upon the pinnacle of Taniquetil, the highest of the mountains of the world, standing upon the margin of the sea. Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world. [...] Manwë has no thought for his own honour, and is not jealous of his power, but rules all to peace.

Just one of the many notes of the elves-Ulmo link:

The Teleri learned much of Ulmo, and for this reason their music has both sadness and enchantment.

---

In the second and third ages, Ulmo was the most loyal vala to the plights of men and elves, aiding them in their quests, from tuor to ,

Tuor and the Fall of Gondoin were part of the First Age.

[ October 08, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Secret Fire]

Yes, thy were in the first age, sorry, brain fart. Anyway, you do raise some interesting points on this subject, but

Know then that water was for the most part the dream andinvention of Ulmo, an Ainu whom Lluvatar had instructed deeper than all others in the depths of music...

and also

Aforetime had Ulmo loved the Solosimpi dearly, yet when he heard of their slaughter by the Gnomes he grieved indeed but anger hardened not his heart, for Ulmo was foreknowing more than all the Gods, en=ven than great Manwe...

The fact that I was mistaken in the timing of Tuor and his aid in Gondolin has no bearing, however, in that it still happened, (truly, I am sorry that I crossed my ages) I am not trying to place Ulmo as closer to the will of Lluvatar as

yet more, to Manwe alone, knowing the purity and glory of his heart, did Lluvatar give the privelege of visiting the uttermost heights...

So, I believe we would agree that Manwe was closest in intention with Lluvatar, but

Ulmo and Manwe have been great friends and allies in almost all matters...

, and as the two most powerful vala, this was an excellent arrangement. Perhaps Lluvatar chose to endow Manwe with kingship over Arda is because

good though the heart of that mighty one [Ulmo] he thought ever deep thoughts alone, and was silent and aloof and haughty even to the Ainur.

However, he was most vocal to the elves of all the Ainur and perhaps this was because of the superior foresight granted him by Lluvatar when he taught Ulmo the art of music.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Hmm, Legolas is right. I hadn't noticed that; Ulmo was by no means more powerful than Manwe, although he can be said to have followed 'Illuvatar's purpose' rather better, for the First Age, in that he never forsook the people of Middle-Earth as did Valinor.

But then remember, Secret Fire, that they all had their part to play in the events of the world. This sort of concept is one that I stand by, and thus I would not say at all that Manwe was somewhat distanced from Eru's designs in this period. Ulmo's job here was to provide a means of not closing Middle-Earth to the Valar completely, but think of Manwe as well.

Manwe had the strongest link to Illuvatar, and understood the most of his purposes, out of all the Ainur. In terms of power he was said to be mightiest -- apart from Melkor, for

Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor... and of old they were brethren in the mind of Illuvatar.

Manwe and Melkor represent opposites, the two extreme powers. Manwe percieves and falls in with Eru's design to the fullest, and works there; Melkor is outside it, or so he and others think (although indeed 'he that ateempteth this shall find that he is but mine instrument in the end'), and works utterly for evil and moves away from the plan of perfection.

But Manwe is the closest to Illuvatar, a concept that is there from the beginning of the Valar's conception by Tolkien. With him in this is Ulmo, to repeat Legolas's quote

And Manwë and Ulmo have from the beginning been allied, and in all things have served most faithfully the purpose of Ilúvatar.

They are different though. Manwe appears to see the further into, and be more unified with, the mind of Illuvatar than Ulmo; although both are true to his designs.

From the Lost Tales there is a valuable passage (Book one provides much insight into the Valar that was largely never lost, although omitted). It goes something like this.

And Manwe walks the upper paths of Ilwe, and sees Arda from above, at which height not a trace of its sound can be heard... and at these times he is very close to Illuvatar.

Manwe seems the closest to Eru. Ulmo is rather different, but just as loyal.

I probably should have made this post before instead of welcoming you, eh, especially if you've already been welcomed a time ago [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. But there you are. That seems like the way it is.

[ October 09, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

[Osse]

It seems to me that Gwaihir has just posted a masterpiece!
That is how i percieved the two exactly. Sadly i'd say that ends the Manwe-Ulmo part of this discussion.

Veering slightly off the Vala themselves, lets discuss what parts (if any) they may have played in bringing about the outcome of the War or the Ring.
Was Ulmo responsible for Boromirs boat reaching Faramir? Was Manwe responsible for the eagles timely arrival in front of the Black Gate? Why were the winds and waters favourable to Aragorn and the captured black fleet? Were Manwe and Ulmo directly responsible?

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts,
Osse

[Finwe]

I don't think that any of the Valar were directly responsible for any of the events in Middle-earth, but they could have guided the characters to act in certain ways. The same "force" that enabled Bilbo to find the Ring, and Frodo to inherit it, could have also sent Boromir's boat to Faramir and enable the Grey Company to travel with the speed that it did. That "force" is purposefully left vague to make readers wonder whether or not the Valar truly "let go" of Middle-earth when they gave up their Guardianship.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

You're welcome if you did find it enlightening in any way [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img], Osse. In reply to your post, I should say that the Valar may well have been responsible for these things and others. As Finwe says, they seem to have still guided Middle-Earth after their land was removed from the phyiscal dimension.

What about the Istari?

And remember the Eagles.

[Eurytus]

I do not have the books on me at present but I believe that in one of his letters Tolkien refers to the fact that there may have been at least one action by the Valar in the LOTR. Strangely in this letter he does not mention the seemingly more obvious things like the Ring being found by Bilbo or the Eagles rescuing Frodo and Sam from the destruction of Mount Doom. In fact, the incident that Tolkien mentions is one that he felt could have come from Ulmo and so is relevant to this thread.
When Frodo and Sam enter Mordor there is a moment when a stream of water, pure and unsullied, runs down to them allowing them to replenish their supplies. From the content of this letter it would seem that Tolkien felt this was a very subtle intervention from Ulmo.

[Sharkû]

You might or might not be interested in Ulmo and the Ring War.

[drigel]

eurytus has laid out what has always been my thesis on Ulmo (like legolas - he is my favorite vala). Although i too agree with gwaihir - in the hierarchy of the Vala, Ulmo is where he is - he has his ranking and his areas of responsibilities - and JRRT has structurally laid this out. But I feel that Ulmo represents JRRT's sentiments, if that makes sense.

Indirect divine intervention - primarily through the use of symbology . If you have that frame of mind you can see it throughout LOTR. The sea, the Great River, Sam and Frodo in Mordor, the Phial... etc. I just see it as JRRT's way of putting it out there, via Ulmo and his devices, that the Vala, by the 3rd age, were still concerned in the affairs of the goodly peoples of ME, and (wink wink) had many other activities in ME other than sending the Istari, that (although debatable)had only 1 major player out of the 5 they sent.

[Secret Fire]

Some very good points. Ulmo, to me is very similar to Mithrandir, also on many points, however. Ulmo did not give up on ME, nor did he forsake the noldor after their rejection of the Valar. Only he, Manwe, and Varda still had love for the errant children of Lluvatar because their foresight ran deeper, but Ulmo, alone, was sadder at the flight of the Noldor than at rthe kinslaying because his knowledge ran deeper. Anyway, he is more similar to Mithrandir because although he hadgreat power, he kept mostly to himself and desired neither praise nor superiority but quietly moved his designs foreward. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

[drigel]

Mithrander/Ulmo - never thought of that! Nice parallels. 2 different sides of the creator's face...

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Interesting observation.

[Secret Fire]

Thankyou.

[Angry Hill Troll]

In "Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin" in the Unfinished Tales Ulmo says the following to Tuor regarding his role in the affairs of Middle-earth and his relationship to the other Valar

...in the armour of Fate (as the Children of Earth name it) there is ever a rift, and in the walls of Doom a breach, until the full-making, which ye call the End. So it shall be while I endure, a secret voice that gainsayeth, and a light where darkness was decreed. Therefore, though in the days of this darkness I seem to oppose the will of my brethren, the Lords of the West, that is my part among them, to which I was appointed ere the making of the World.

As others have observed, Manwë and Ulmo collaborate on most matters. Who is the greatest between them? Well, Manwë in the sense that he is concerned with the most "noble" subject matter (physically represented by his being in charge of the air) and has the most insight into the will of Eru. However, he is limited in being unable to see through Melkor's deceits, and Tolkien states that

he has become engrossed (partly out of sheer fear of Melkor, partly out of desire to control him) in amendment, healing, re-ordering - even 'keeping the status quo' - to the loss of all creative power and even to weakness in dealing with difficult and perilous situations.

Morgoth's Ring, Myths transformed

Also Manwë doesn't get out much these days. So there has to be some intermediary to give helpful advice, guidance, etc. to people who aren't able to go to the mountain themselves. Ulmo plays this role at certain times, as does Gandalf.

More generally though, it seems to me that Tolkien presents all the Valar (including Melkor) as being distinct but indespensable parts needed to fulfill Eru's design for the world. In looking at it this way, it's kind of like asking "which of the Valar is more essential?" when they are all necessary. Ulmo's words to Tuor underscore this.

Another example (?) of Ulmo's influence is perhaps the finding of the Ring by Déagol. Note that the Ring was lost in a river, and that very close to the time the Ring was actually found, if not before, both Saruman and Sauron were looking for it in the same location. But fortuitously it ended up in the hands of the one race of creatures who could keep it safe without attracting anyone's attention.

[ October 13, 2003: Message edited by: Angry Hill Troll ]

[ October 13, 2003: Message edited by: Angry Hill Troll ]

[Osse]

I had always thought that it was Saurons will that had stirred the ring, both his and Saruman's forces were searching for it in the area, Sauron's will was bent on finding it and the ring wished to be found, it was just 'luck' or 'fate' that caused Deagal to find it. Of course, Ulmo may have had influence on where the good fishing spot was etc. so that the two friends fished in the right spot. Does Ulmo have sway over the animals that inhabit water? Because if so he could have made sure that the fish dragged Deagol into the water.

An interesting possibility!

Osse

[Secret Fire]

That is a possibility. However, Ulmo does state that the "seas" on the earth are but a splash compared to the vastness of his seas of vai, but they were the only ones thick enough for the inhabitants of Middle Earth to float in and that only he, the ainur and his creatures whom he had spoken the word given to him by Lluvatar before the making of the world could inhabit. Thed ring being found could be affected by many workings of Ulmo, he could have created the correct conditions for it to be found, moved it with his currents, or whatever else he deemed necessary to make sure it was kept out of the hands of evil. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Angry Hill Troll]

I looked up the chronology again [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] The conjectured date of Deagol finding the One Ring, TA 2463, is three years after Sauron's return to Dol Guldor, ending the Watchful Peace. Also, it is the same year that the White Council was formed, with Saruman as its head. Probably by this time Saruman had begun his study of the Rings of Power. Given all this, it was virtually assured that the One Ring was going to be found, and sooner rather than later. So actually there was a very narrow window of opportunity for the Ring to be spirited away before it fell into either set of the wrong hands. So Ulmo may have "arranged" for someone else to find it first.

Very fortuitous...for everyone except poor Deagol [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[ October 15, 2003: Message edited by: Angry Hill Troll ]

[Secret Fire]

A very good point Troll. Also Ulmo has to have been teh way that the Elves were allowed to return to Valinor. The finding of the ring, however, may have been more in Osse's territory that in Ulmo's as Ulmo had given the rule of the rivers unto him.