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Old 07-08-2022, 02:07 AM   #1
Huinesoron
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Narya "Rings of Power" trailer analysis

With two trailers for Rings of Power out, and a third on the way in a week or so, I figured a dedicated thread was worthwhile. ^_^

(It may be useful to cross-reference the cast list, which links to the teaser posters for each revealed character.)

The first teaser trailer (not counting the one that was just gold pouring into a mould) was analysed by Galadriel55 and myself in another thread. That was the one with a voiceover by Nori Brandyfoot: "Haven't you ever wondered... what else is out there?"

Trailer 1.5 is an Amazon Prime-exclusive short teaser, dedicated to the cast's reactions to The Meteor flying past. It's possible that some of the scenes are actually reactions to something else that have been spliced in, but they're presented as Meteor reactions. It's 1 minute long, and Amazon link to the US version from this tweet (which also includes a 15-second version).

EDIT: Perfect timing... about six hours after I posted, they put the 'exclusive' teaser up on Twitter.

Unfortunately Amazon have set up their player so PrintScreen doesn't work, but here's a quick rundown of the shots:

1. A green, mountainous landscape with what look like lakes on top of the nearest mountain.

2. A solid looking (watch)tower and bridge in similar mountains. There might be a dam below the bridge, which could imply we're at the east gate of Moria.

3. Sadoc Burrows, in a woodland setting. He seems to be reading a book.

4. The book in question, complete with Sadoc's hands. It's written in a non-Tolkien pictographic script, and looks like some kind of star chart, especially since:

5. Sadoc, in woodland: "The skies - are strange." Looks up.

6. The Meteor shoots across the clouds.

7. Gil-Galad looks up. This is shot 8a from Teaser 1.

8. Gulls flock around a swan-ship, which is sailing towards a golden light.

9. White-robed elves on the ship watch the gulls. They're all sort of standing around, socially distanced, while the ship sails itself. It seems to be heading towards a wall of clouds - are we looking at a ship sailing to Aman? In which case:

10. Galadriel is on the ship, watching the gulls with a bewildered expression. Speculatively, could this sequence be Galadriel sailing West, and then jumping (or being knocked) overboard and that's how she ends up on Halbrand's raft? This is also the second shot in the Twitter version. so you can take a look yourself even if you don't have Prime.

11. The Meteor again. First and third shot in the Twitter version.

12. Durin IV looking up. Twitter shot four.

13. Elves walking under a tree. Mallorn?

14. Elrond and Celebrimbor track something across the sky.

15. Bronwyn and Arondir look up at something.

16. Bronwyn and Arondir, lit differently, stand on a slope and watch the Meteor. They hold hands. Aww.

17. Someone (Elrond?) atop the watchtower from shot 2, looking out over a green valley. There's roads and farmland, and what might be a city in the middle distance. Twitter shot five.

18. A woman we haven't seen before walking down a street as petals blow past her. She wears a golden circlet, and in the background there's an orange tree in a pot, and a guard in gold and blue sun-themed armour. This could plausibly by the woman in the Flower poster, who I've seen speculated as Tar-Miriel. She looks round at something. Twitter shot 6 and final.

19. The Meteor zooms over some trees. I believe this is scene 8 from Teaser 1, but with a big difference: three of those trees are moving, and one is much smaller than the other two. Ent, Entwife, and Enting?

20. Nori Brandyfoot tracks the Meteor across the sky.

21. Nori watches the Meteor crash behind some trees and a stone arch.

22. (After some title cards) A pan up over a steep valley. We start at a carved stone head, and get a glimpse of a white city set into a cliff. The architecture (and the ship down below) looks the same as the opening shot of Numenor from Teaser 1.

So there we have it! Mostly new shots, one new face, and the next trailer ("New Teaser") is on July 14th, so not long to wait!

hS
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Old 07-08-2022, 09:06 AM   #2
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And naturally, six hours after I post about not being able to screenshot, they put the whole thing up on Twitter... anyway, here's the Swanship sequence:



Looking back at the first trailer, I think Galadriel's dress here is the one she's wearing on the raft - you can just see her far shoulder when Halbrand lifts her hair, and it seems to be the same plain white style. So it certainly seems like she goes from the boat to the raft.

And here's maybe-possibly-Miriel:



hS
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Old 07-11-2022, 05:45 PM   #3
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Explain to me again what Miriel is doing alive at the same time as Celebrimbor?
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Old 07-12-2022, 01:48 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin View Post
Explain to me again what Miriel is doing alive at the same time as Celebrimbor?
The show-runners (whom, I am informed by "experts" and "Professors", are intimately familiar with all of Tolkien's writings) are doing a little tiny insignificant bit of time compression (ca. 2000 years into something where various of their mortal main characters wont grow old and die, as best I understand it).
So *Durin III is the living father of *Durin IV, *Celebrimbor is alive at the same time as *Tar-Miriel (the ruling Queen of *Numenor, who seems have Far Harad heritage (though the Royal House, particularly after Aldarion and Erendis, married within the bloodline of Elros)), and her advisor *Pharazon (with whom she has a son).
There must be some other insignificant time compression as well, as the nomadic agriculturalist *Harfoots seem to be literate (though Hobbits did not start learning their letters until TA 1300, and even after that were still primarily relying on oral tradition until the end of the Third Age).

I have also been informed that time compression is proper and acceptable because Jackson, or something...
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Old 07-12-2022, 01:51 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin View Post
Explain to me again what Miriel is doing alive at the same time as Celebrimbor?
In one of the articles they talked about compressing the timeline: basically taking the two* stories of the Second Age (the falls of Eregion and Numenor) and running them simultaneously.

(*Excluding Aldarion and Erendis.)

I don't particularly like it, but I understand why they've done it. If you want any non-immortal characters at all, having your story jump forward far enough that the first half is as long ago as the Western Roman Empire means killing them all off and creating a whole new batch. You can do that (it's basically a distant sequel, like the Hobbit to LotR jump which also replaces most of the cast), but I understand them not wanting to.

Caveat: I don't remember whether it was the showrunners or Vanity Fair who said that. We've not seen anything in the trailers to fix the Numenorean timeframe, so it's possible she's actually Ancalime or Erendis, and Vanity Fair just got the wrong end of the stick. But I suspect she's Miriel.

hS
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Old 07-15-2022, 07:39 AM   #6
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Trailer release! I've gone through this with a fine-toothed comb, and at two and a half minutes it's taken me long enough. A few pictures in here to break up the long, long list of shots.

1. Flythrough of a river canyon to a Numenorean city. This is the same as shot #22 in the mini-teaser. Galadriel: "There was a time when the world was so young."

2. Morfydd Clark as Galadriel, looking very Cate Blanchett. I think the music here is the Rivendell theme from Fellowship too.

3. Galadriel: "There had not yet been a sunrise." Cloaked figure walks up a hill, overwhich a white/gold city and a bright light come into view. This shot appeared in the very first image we saw from the series, back in August '21, and it revealed...

3a. ... the Two Trees of Valinor in all their glory, with a city (Tirion? Valmar?) in the foreground. Galadriel: "But even then, there was light."



Fade out to white.

4. Flyover of an unidentified group of ~20 running through a wintry-looking, possibly marshy valley.

5. Similar flyover of 10 figures trudging over a snowy mountain. Over the landscape beyond a Great Eagle soars, beating its wings only once. Song: "Come to me, come to me, lands far away..."

6. Harfoot: "Elves have forests to protect..." Flypast of an elvish city on a forested hillside. Style is like FotR!Rivendell.

7. Harfoot: "... Dwarves their mines..." A beautifully well-lit interior shot of Khazad-dum, including vines hanging from the ceiling and mirrors to fill the space with sunlight.

8. Harfoot: "... Men their fields of grain." A village of thatched wooden houses, with farmers out the front. All very Anglo-Saxon.

9. Harfoot: "But we Harfoots have each other." Shot of the Meeples on a hillside, and then, surprise! The foreground grass is actually a Harfoot in camoflague. She lifts a whistle(?) to her lips.

10. A forest, with Harfoots ("HarFEET!") dancing between the trees. Song: "For I must now wander this wandering day..."

11. Closeup of the Harfoot speaker from the last few shots as she shrugs: "We're safe." I think this is Poppy Proudfellow, but I'm not great with faces.

12a/b. Nori Brandyfoot watches the Meteor fly over and crash. Shots 20 & 21 from the mini-teaser.

13. The waterfall from shot 4 of the first trailer. Elrond: "You have fought long enough, Galadriel." I love the way he says her name here.

14a/b/c. Galadriel and Elrond standing in the snow. She glowers at him, stabs her sword into the ground, and then there's a wide shot of them both.

15. Elrond in a forest setting: "Put up your sword."

16. Galadriel looking at Elrond in the same scene. She is wearing the simple white dress from her swanship scene in the mini-teaser.

17. Group of torch-bearing figures in a blizzard. Galadriel: "The enemy is still out there."

18. Galadriel in sunlight: "The question now is where?"

19. Torch-figures in a ruined underground city.

20. A long shot of a white city built into a cliff. Could be Numenor, or maybe Tirion again.

21a/b/c. Elrond and Galadriel, in the forest setting from a few shots ago. E: "It is over." G: "You have not seen what I have seen." E: "I have seen my share."

22. Galadriel on red, with sparks flying past. She looks to be covered with mud or something else. Galadriel: "You have not seen..."

23. This:



There is water above the figures and buildings, which probably makes this either a flashback to Alqualonde, or her vision of the fall of Numenor.

24. Galadriel looking very pointed: "... what I have seen."

25. A Numenorean ship sailing into harbour. Its sails evoke stylised wings.

26. The harbour in Numenor and grand statue; I think we've seen this shot before but I'm not sure where.

27. Elves under a tree at night. Gil-Galad: "Darkness will march..."

28. Gil-Galad close-up: "... over the face of the Earth."

29. Elrond turns in alarm.

30. Torchbearing Orcs - an army of them. They may be led by a black-haired elvish-styled figure.

31a/b. The swanship, and Galadriel on it. Shots 8 & 10 from the mini-teaser. Gil-Galad: "It will be the end not just of our people..."

32a/b. Gil-Galad: "... but all peoples." Miriel walks down a street as petals/snow fly past, then looks up at the fall. The first half is shot 18 from the mini-teaser.

33. Nori and another Harfoot with sparks around them.

34. The Stranger, very out of focus, looking at his hands in a similar setting.

35a/b. Elrond with Dwarf escort looking around as they walk through Khazad-dum. Dwarf: "I am sorry."

36. Dwarf: "But their time has come." Durin III [sic] talking to someone.

37. Durin IV smashes a rock. Shot 17 of the original trailer.

38a/b. Elrond hanging off the icy waterfall, just like Galadriel in the first trailer. I guess they were in it together!

39. Viggo??! No, wait, it's Elendil, in a grand audience chamber, looking like a mess. Arondir: "The past is with us all."

40. Arondir (finishing his line), in what looks like a mortal house, complete with aging peasant.

41a/b. The ride of the Rohirrim... er, no, of Galadriel's cavalry from original trailer shot 9. Elendil: "The past is dead."

42. Two Harfeet hugging. One is Nori.

43a/b. Flashes of the raft in a storm.

44a/b. Numenorean ship on the high seas. Isildur on its deck. Elendil: "We either move forward..."

45a/b. Elendil and Galadriel riding along a beach.

46. Elendil, by a fire, looking at someone who might be Isildur. Elendil: "... or we die with it."

47a/b. Numenoreans cheering Pharazon.

48. One of the cavalry grabs a spear. Is it Elendil?

49. Durin IV holding up a jewel. Durin IV: "This could be the beginning-"

50. "-of a new era." At least four elf-men in Noldorin armour draw swords in a ritual manner under a dome and a starry sky:



Speculation says "Oath of Feanor" and honestly I'm convinced and also aaaaaaa.

51. Arondir(?) fighting a wolf. At least one of them is chained.

52a/b. Galadriel fighting a troll. Might be the same ruined city from earlier.

53a/b/c. The Stranger in the Meteor crater. The fire whooshes into him, and looks very Eye of Sauron-y while it does so.

54. Four Harfeet walk across the landscape. Song: "Away I must wander, this wandering day."

Oof, I'm exhausted! Thoughts will come later.

hS
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Old 07-15-2022, 09:28 AM   #7
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"3. Galadriel: "There had not yet been a sunrise.""

A contradiction to The Hobbit (rev.) and Lord of the Rings.

"Though their [the Wood-elves] magic was strong, even in those days they were wary. They differed from the High Elves of the West, and were more dangerous and less wise. For most of them (together with their scattered relations in the hills and mountains) were descended from the ancient tribes that never went to Faerie in the West. There the Light-elves and the Deep-elves and the Sea-elves went and lived for ages, and grew fairer and wiser and more learned, and invented their magic and their cunning craft, in the making of beautiful and marvellous things, before some came back into the Wide World. In the Wide World the Wood-elves lingered in the twilight of our Sun and Moon but loved best the stars; and they wandered in the great forests that grew tall in lands that are now lost."
The Hobbit, Flies and Spiders
Wood-elves linger in the twilight of the sun and moon before the High Elves return to Middle-earth.
Note that Tolkien deliberately revised this passage to have an extant sun and moon (see Anderson's The Annotated Hobbit).

"The world was young, the mountains green,
No stain yet on the Moon was seen,
No words were laid on stream or stone
When Durin woke and walked alone.
[...]
A king he was on carven throne
In many-pillared halls of stone
With golden roof and silver floor,
And runes of power upon the door.
The light of sun and star and moon
In shining lamps of crystal hewn
Undimmed by cloud or shade of night
There shone for ever fair and bright."
LotR, A Journey in the Dark

Durin wakes with a moon present, and is able to capture the light of sun, star and moon in crystal lamps.

Galadriel's song:
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew:
Of wind I sang, a wind there came and in the branches blew.
Beyond the Sun, beyond the Moon, the foam was on the Sea,
And by the strand of Ilmarin there grew a golden Tree.
Beneath the stars of Ever-eve in Eldamar it shone,
In Eldamar beside the walls of Elven Tirion."
LotR, Farewell to Lorien

Gandalf's Ent riddle:
"Ere iron was found or tree was hewn,
When young was mountain under moon;
Ere ring was made, or wrought was woe,
It walked the forests long ago."
LotR, The Road to Isengard
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Old 07-15-2022, 11:01 AM   #8
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Not sure what you mean about the contradiction. Galadriel seems to be referencing the time of the Two Trees, before the sun and moon. Third Age songs may say what they will, but there was no sun or moon during the Oath or Alqualonde, if these are the scenes she is referencing.
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Old 07-15-2022, 11:27 AM   #9
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The mythological creation of the Sun and Moon from the Two Trees is not present in LotR or the Hobbit.
Tolkien deliberately revised the Hobbit to have an extant sun and moon while the High Elves were dwelling in Aman, before the return of the Noldor.
Durin wakes with a moon, and is able to capture moonlight and sunlight in lamps.
Galadriel sings of her time in Valinor, beyond the sun and moon (not before the sun and moon). Beyond is probably a reference to the Dome of Varda.
Gandalf says the Ents were walking in forests, with a moon overhead, before any tree was cut down, or iron found.
In the mythological tale:
Durin woke thousands of years before the Sun and Moon.
Galadriel could not have sung of leaves in Valinor, beyond a sun and moon (which did not exist until after she left).
Iron was found and trees cut down long before the Sun and Moon were created, in the myth version.
These are consistent with the (so called) 'round-world cosmology' (deliberately so in the case of the Hobbit).

Hence a contradiction to LotR and The Hobbit.
(As Amazon only has rights to the Hobbit and LotR, I do wonder if they had to get permission from the Estate to refer to the 'Sun and Moon creation myth', or if the show-runners are ignorant of the fact that the creation of the sun and moon myth is contradicted by LotR and, quite deliberately, The Hobbit.)
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Old 07-15-2022, 08:10 PM   #10
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Hence a contradiction to LotR and The Hobbit.
(As Amazon only has rights to the Hobbit and LotR, I do wonder if they had to get permission from the Estate to refer to the 'Sun and Moon creation myth', or if the show-runners are ignorant of the fact that the creation of the sun and moon myth is contradicted by LotR and, quite deliberately, The Hobbit.)
So the issue is more that the showrunners are technically using something they don't have rights to? Because it seems like the real problem you're underlining is not that the show is discrepant from the legendarium, but that there are discrepancies in Tolkien's own materials. And frankly, this one I would give to the show - imagine if they followed your scenario, what the reaction would be then. People would be shouting from rooftops that the show has no respect for Tolkien if they never heard about the Trees and how the sun and moon were created. I would much rather they stick to The Sil cosmology and Sun&Moon creation myths. And at the very least Telperion makes a brief cameo in LOTR, so while the creation myth is not there (and, in-world, probably long forgotten by anyone who is not an Elf and perhaps a few very keen scholars of history and Elf lore), the Trees are. Well, one Tree.
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Old 07-15-2022, 08:38 PM   #11
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So the issue is more that the showrunners are technically using something they don't have rights to? Because it seems like the real problem you're underlining is not that the show is discrepant from the legendarium, but that there are discrepancies in Tolkien's own materials. And frankly, this one I would give to the show - imagine if they followed your scenario, what the reaction would be then. People would be shouting from rooftops that the show has no respect for Tolkien if they never heard about the Trees and how the sun and moon were created. I would much rather they stick to The Sil cosmology and Sun&Moon creation myths. And at the very least Telperion makes a brief cameo in LOTR, so while the creation myth is not there (and, in-world, probably long forgotten by anyone who is not an Elf and perhaps a few very keen scholars of history and Elf lore), the Trees are. Well, one Tree.
Correct, the show-runners are using something they don't have the rights to, and I am curious if it is due to ignorance on their part, or if they actually realize it and had to get permission from the Estate.
(Both Telperion and Laurelin are mentioned in LotR, App. A)

I rather doubt that they are that concerned with 'people shouting from the roof-tops', considering all the bending and twisting done.
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Old 07-15-2022, 11:43 PM   #12
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I rather doubt that they are that concerned with 'people shouting from the roof-tops', considering all the bending and twisting done.
My argument though is that their choice accomplishes less twisting. If you are portraying the FA directly, then do it FA style. Don't make 3rd Age rhymes and riddles into a reality no one will recognize. Of course, we might rather that they did not touch the FA at all. But assuming they do anyways... would you really rather they depicted Valinor without the Two Trees cosmology? In my mind that would have been the much greater evil.

As for rights, wasn't there a clause somewhere that they couldn't contradict published material?
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Old 07-16-2022, 04:46 AM   #13
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My argument though is that their choice accomplishes less twisting. If you are portraying the FA directly, then do it FA style. Don't make 3rd Age rhymes and riddles into a reality no one will recognize. Of course, we might rather that they did not touch the FA at all. But assuming they do anyways... would you really rather they depicted Valinor without the Two Trees cosmology? In my mind that would have been the much greater evil.
Yes. I would rather they depicted the sun and moon in existence at the same time as the Two Trees as per LotR and The Hobbit.
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As for rights, wasn't there a clause somewhere that they couldn't contradict published material?
Not having seen the contract, I don't know for sure.
My understanding is that they can, on a case by case basis, get permission to use some items from the posthumously published works (e.g. the Numenor map), as long as it does not contradict what they have the rights to (Hobbit, LotR).
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Old 07-16-2022, 06:03 AM   #14
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I'd take issue with the claim that LotR has the Sun coexisting with the Trees; for example on the basis that Gildor's party's song has a reference to Varda's creation of the Stars in "the Sunless year". Unless you can give a reference that establishes otherwise, there seems no reason to suppose that the cosmology of LotR, as presented in the book and the book only, is any different to that of the published Silmarillion.

Nonetheless LotR doesn't include any explicit references to the myth of the Sun and Moon, so far more interesting to me is the fact that the trailer references it. That's information the show is not supposed to have, and must surely be a knowing wink for us to pick up on.
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Old 07-16-2022, 07:17 AM   #15
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I did already give references. See my post with the quotes.
Tie that in with Tolkien's deliberate revision of the Hobbit.
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Old 07-21-2022, 09:52 AM   #16
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Yes. I would rather they depicted the sun and moon in existence at the same time as the Two Trees as per LotR and The Hobbit.
This would mean pulling material not just from the Silmarillion, but from HoME texts - the Appendices are crystal clear that the Two Trees "gave light to the land of the Valar", so they would have to use the Dome(s) of Varda to make sense of it, and it/they isn't/aren't in Silm or UT.

Without invoking the idea that the Valar just shoved a giant lid on Valinor because, by golly, they'd had this idea for shiny trees and didn't want to let a ball of flaming gas ruin it, it's perfectly possible to reconcile the LotR and Hobbit texts you reference with the "young Sun" worldview:

- The Hobbit is written in Bilbo's editorial voice, and was written before he read the Elvish tales; Hobbit folk-tales make no mention of the creation of the Sun and Moon. (It is clear that Tolkien was thinking of the Dome of Varda/Melkor's smokes cover the Sun story here, but that doesn't mean it's the only possible interpretation.)

- Durin: there was no stain on the Moon because there was no Moon. The "light of sun and star and moon" is either a later metaphor (like the Winged Sun on Finwe's heraldic device), or an indication that Durin ruled until after the Sunrise.

- Galadriel says "beyond" and means in time.

- Gandalf is explicitly covering a broad timeline in his riddle - he mentions rings, which is the mid-Second Age! Or: he's referring to mountains that are now under the Moon. Or: he's saying that Treebeard and the Ents came to Fangorn after the Moonrise, leaving the lands where iron and hewing and woe were found. (Heck, Woe Was Wrought by Melkor before the land was even solid!) Or even: 'when young was mountain under moon' is a Rohirric idiom not otherwise attested.

And there are references which imply (but again do not state) the Silmarillion cosmology:

- The "stain on the moon" from the Durin rhyme is only ever explained in terms of Tilion and his ship, not a giant orbiting rock.

- There are explicit references to a Man in the Moon throughout Hobbit lore (and indeed a woman in the Sun).

- The "Sunless Years" reference from Gildor's song.

- Tom Bombadil talks of "the young Sun" shining down on battles on the Barrow-Downs.

- Bilbo's song tells of Earendil flying behind the sun; for a Silmaril to be visible at that distance the Sun must be pretty close (or the Silmarils once lit the entirety of Beleriand!).

- Haldir mentions that the light of the Sun is not as it was aforetimes, which actually sounds most like one of the very old legends about the death of Arien. It definitely doesn't make sense with an Old Sun model, unless Haldir is complaining that the sun isn't washed-out and obscured enough. (Perhaps he is English and longing for grey summers?)

And that's only from Fellowship! I'm sure you could find more in the other volumes. This isn't an obvious "the Sun always existed" situation by any means.

hS
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Old 07-21-2022, 11:15 AM   #17
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"The sun always existed" was the "destructive idea" that CJRT referenced in a number of places in HoME. It's certainly not as simplistic as saying "the sun always existed, get over it, move on" - and it's incredibly disingenuous to imply so.


If nothing else, consider everything that would need to be rewritten to support it:
  • The Myth of the Lamps
  • The Sleep of Yavanna
  • The Myth of the Trees
  • The first reckoning of Time
  • The Darkening of Valinor
  • The Myth of the Sun and the Moon
  • Remind me what's so special about these Silmaril things again, anyway?
  • Etc.
  • Oh, and the Change of the World at the end of the Second Age; including everything about the Straight Path to Valinor.
And these were never rewritten.


Whichever way you slice it, you're going to need to handwave away something.


So which is easier to handwave away? Some oblique references, some of which came in via subsequent edits or editions, and most of which can be easily explained away? Or the entire first half of the Silmarillion? And so much other important stuff?


Nope, not buying it. Tolkien may have had intentions towards rewriting everything, but the key thing is: he never did. Ultimately all that we're left with is the latest completed cosmology, and, despite some offhand references and subsequent edits, that is the Cosmology.
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Old 07-21-2022, 12:40 PM   #18
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This would mean pulling material not just from the Silmarillion, but from HoME texts - the Appendices are crystal clear that the Two Trees "gave light to the land of the Valar", so they would have to use the Dome(s) of Varda to make sense of it, and it/they isn't/aren't in Silm or UT.
No more than pulling materials to invoke the sun and moon not in existence.

Quote:
Without invoking the idea that the Valar just shoved a giant lid on Valinor because, by golly, they'd had this idea for shiny trees and didn't want to let a ball of flaming gas ruin it, it's perfectly possible to reconcile the LotR and Hobbit texts you reference with the "young Sun" worldview:

- The Hobbit is written in Bilbo's editorial voice, and was written before he read the Elvish tales; Hobbit folk-tales make no mention of the creation of the Sun and Moon. (It is clear that Tolkien was thinking of the Dome of Varda/Melkor's smokes cover the Sun story here, but that doesn't mean it's the only possible interpretation.)
It is clear that Tolkien deliberately revised the passage to have an extant sun and moon.

Quote:
- Durin: there was no stain on the Moon because there was no Moon. The "light of sun and star and moon" is either a later metaphor (like the Winged Sun on Finwe's heraldic device), or an indication that Durin ruled until after the Sunrise.
Then it would have been 'before' the moon.

Quote:
- Galadriel says "beyond" and means in time.
In time would be 'before'.

Quote:
- Gandalf is explicitly covering a broad timeline in his riddle - he mentions rings, which is the mid-Second Age! Or: he's referring to mountains that are now under the Moon. Or: he's saying that Treebeard and the Ents came to Fangorn after the Moonrise, leaving the lands where iron and hewing and woe were found. (Heck, Woe Was Wrought by Melkor before the land was even solid!) Or even: 'when young was mountain under moon' is a Rohirric idiom not otherwise attested.
The semicolon indicates a distinct separation between the two parts of the riddle.

Quote:
And there are references which imply (but again do not state) the Silmarillion cosmology:

- The "stain on the moon" from the Durin rhyme is only ever explained in terms of Tilion and his ship, not a giant orbiting rock.

- There are explicit references to a Man in the Moon throughout Hobbit lore (and indeed a woman in the Sun).

- The "Sunless Years" reference from Gildor's song.
It is "Sunless Year". Which was when?

Quote:
- Tom Bombadil talks of "the young Sun" shining down on battles on the Barrow-Downs.
Perhaps the only possible one. The sun young compared to what?

Quote:
- Bilbo's song tells of Earendil flying behind the sun; for a Silmaril to be visible at that distance the Sun must be pretty close (or the Silmarils once lit the entirety of Beleriand!).

- Haldir mentions that the light of the Sun is not as it was aforetimes, which actually sounds most like one of the very old legends about the death of Arien. It definitely doesn't make sense with an Old Sun model, unless Haldir is complaining that the sun isn't washed-out and obscured enough. (Perhaps he is English and longing for grey summers?)

And that's only from Fellowship! I'm sure you could find more in the other volumes. This isn't an obvious "the Sun always existed" situation by any means.

hS
None of seem these have any relevance to the existence of the sun and moon.

And it all fails on Tolkien's deliberate revision.
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Old 07-21-2022, 02:16 PM   #19
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"The sun always existed" was the "destructive idea" that CJRT referenced in a number of places in HoME. It's certainly not as simplistic as saying "the sun always existed, get over it, move on" - and it's incredibly disingenuous to imply so.
I did not say that. And it is disingenuous to imply that I did. Is that what you are attempting?
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Old 07-22-2022, 07:59 PM   #20
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So the issue is more that the showrunners are technically using something they don't have rights to?

I haven't read this entire thread, but I have a feeling that lawsuits will come out of this show.

I think, visually, the RoP series looks great. I am tentative about the story. In my head, I'm thinking of this entire Amazon series as a giant myth, which makes it a little better and easier to ignore any inconsistencies. I actually enjoy reading different myths when told by different cultures.

You know, I've been trying to get a copy of the Sil as an eBook. I have access to 3 libraries and NONE of them have it. I am 21 on a waiting list in OR, ? in Hawaii (their website is crap and doesn't even tell you what you've requested), and 6 in AZ. I have a physical copy in AZ but I'm in HI right now I just wanna read some Sil again darn it!!

Edit: libgen has the Sil! WAHOO!
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Old 07-22-2022, 08:19 PM   #21
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Good to see you Blind Guardian.

Pretending that RoP is a myth or tale independent of (or unreported by) Tolkien may be an option available to some here. However, the series is using characters, places and a general mythological setting familiar to me. The Hobbit movies almost lost me at the depiction of Radagast, and did lose me in goblin town. Tauriel was simply annoying to me, though perhaps I would have enjoyed her character in a non-Tolkien setting.

Attempting to view RoP as if it were unrelated to or independent of Middle Earth is not an option for me. For this reason, I hope that its quality and faithfulness to at least the spirit of the Legendarium is enough to let me enjoy it. There are gaps in the "history," particularly in the Second Age, broad enough to craft a believable effort to fill in the empty spaces so long as some creditable attempt at consistency is made.
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Old 07-23-2022, 10:59 AM   #22
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I think Tolkien's recharacterization of The Silmarillion as a mostly Mannish work solved his problem.

The revision to The Hobbit was, in my opinion, done in order to take out an explicit mention of a time before a sun. . . although that said, I think we can add what I'll call the Treebeard Tradition* from The Lord of the Rings, which to my mind, agrees with the Western Elvish traditon of a pre-existing Sun.

*Treebeard's story of the Entwives read in consideration of his chronology regarding both the Great Darkness and his reference to the Elves passing over Sea.
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Old 07-23-2022, 12:46 PM   #23
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( . . . ) And these were never rewritten.
I argue that Tolkien eventually realized that they didn't have to be, although interestingly, if I recall correctly, he did add a reference to the Dome of Varda to LQ2 -- but again, there's no explicit-ness there (on purpose I would say).

The reference is there to be picked up on, but it doesn't have to hit the reader over the head. I read the "Death of Ambarussa" text (as no one calls it), as a Western Elvish tradition of a pre-existing sun . . .

. . . and I see no reason why it can't stand in the fuller Legendarium alongside the Quenta Silmarillion tradition with its time without a sun, and see no reason why it can't stand alongside the reference to the "Sunless Year" in The Lord of the Rings, or alongside Appendix F (Trolls): "Unlike the older race of the Twilight they could endure the Sun . . ."

Okay, so what exactly is the Twilight here, when not informed by the tradition of The Silmarillion?

Also in my opinion, the "natural default interpretation" of the world and its sun -- when considering everything Tolkien himself published -- is that the world was always round, and the Sun pre-existing -- and all I mean by that is that it's just a natural thing for modern readers to think* without anything explicit to necessarily think otherwise.

Or if I'm wrong, I'll speak for myself at least: I don't think I ever imagined Tolkien's world as "once flat" or "once sunless" until the constructed Silmarillion was published.

Or maybe I'm just too thick headed


_______

*I note A Guide To Middle-Earth by Robert Foster, the edition published before the constructed Silmarillion was published:


Twilight: "Figurative name for the Undying Lands, derived from their darkened state after the Rebellions of Morgoth and the Noldor.

Twilight: "A period early in the First Age of Middle-earth, perhaps the domination of Morgoth."


But in Foster's revised, post-Silmarillion Guide, the two entries for Twilight are quite different of course!

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Old 07-24-2022, 06:08 PM   #24
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Do you really think this show is going t deal in complex metaphysics and sophisticated cosmology?

These are people who still think bearded Dwarf women were a Peter Jackson joke (as stated just yesterday at Comicon)

So it will be really interesting - in the way reconstructing an air disaster is “interesting “ - to see hoe these hacks try to build a “second age” out of the Appendices alone without violating copyright. My guess? They will do it with nonstop Hollywood and pulp-fantasy cliches.

PS They claim to be advised in this project by “Tolkien scholars.” To which my reaction is similar to that of Indiana Jones when told the Ark would be examined by “top men”….

Who?

Which Tolkien scholars? I know who pretty much all if the reputable ones are, and to my knowledge none of them has touched this thing - except Shippey, who quit or was fired within just a few weeks.
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Old 07-24-2022, 09:17 PM   #25
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Question

I agree with William. This is going to be a "poop emoji"-show. I expect nothing less than "Fate: The Winx Saga" level of bad. Except "Fate" is based off of an increasingly terrible show and can only go up from here.

RoP is based off of pure magic, that I never thought would be tarnished. At least it will give me a visual of what people look like, and, hopefully (!!) help me pronounce the names. And it did get me to reread the Sil after like 2 years.

You guys are debating twilight and stuff, and while I appreciate it and enjoy the discussion, I don't think it's realistic. These story writers are clearly not following the established lore. I mean, didn't Elrond already know about Sauron being evil and doesn't need Galadriel to tell him about it?

I would like to start a betting pool of how much money Amazon is going to lose because of this show. Anyone want in?

Edit: I made a meme, but I don't know how to upload it. https://imgur.com/a/cPuPkIQ

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Old 07-25-2022, 07:54 AM   #26
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So it will be really interesting - in the way reconstructing an air disaster is “interesting “ - to see hoe these hacks try to build a “second age” out of the Appendices alone without violating copyright. My guess? They will do it with nonstop Hollywood and pulp-fantasy cliches.
My guess is they don't really need to worry too much about copyright violations, as there is some sort of 'case by case' agreement with the Estate. And Simon 'Jackson was too faithful to the books' Tolkien is some sort of 'advisor', (isn't he basically in charge of the Estate since CT's death?).

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PS They claim to be advised in this project by “Tolkien scholars.” To which my reaction is similar to that of Indiana Jones when told the Ark would be examined by “top men”….

Who?

Which Tolkien scholars? I know who pretty much all if the reputable ones are, and to my knowledge none of them has touched this thing - except Shippey, who quit or was fired within just a few weeks.
Top secret Tolkien scholars. Probably intimately familiar with all the materials in:
Appendix BS
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Old 07-25-2022, 10:58 AM   #27
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You guys are debating twilight and stuff, and while I appreciate it and enjoy the discussion, I don't think it's realistic.

Well, for my part, I'm mostly commenting on the Tolkienian stuff . . . aside from what is realistic or not with respect to a show (any show). I mean I'm not unaware of the context of the thread, but I don't get to post on this subject that often.

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Old 07-25-2022, 06:25 PM   #28
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PS They claim to be advised in this project by “Tolkien scholars.” To which my reaction is similar to that of Indiana Jones when told the Ark would be examined by “top men”….

Who?

Which Tolkien scholars? I know who pretty much all if the reputable ones are, and to my knowledge none of them has touched this thing - except Shippey, who quit or was fired within just a few weeks.
I was going to say, Shippey leaving (or being fired, depending on whether you believe he kept complaining the show runners were "polluting the lore") is certainly an ominous tell as to the nature of this cluster****. Of course, one only has to watch a few minutes of the trailers to see the inanity already bubbling over.
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Old 07-25-2022, 08:46 PM   #29
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I made my meme better: https://imgur.com/a/pFZ5M49

I'm not good at making memes, but I think you guys get the point. Do you hear that noise? It's Melkor laughing.
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Old 07-27-2022, 03:44 PM   #30
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About five days ago a new trailer dropped. It feels like it goes a lot deeper into the plot than the previous ones, so let's take a look!

I'm not going to do a scene/shot count this time, because now they're this long I don't see much value in it. I'd rather do an overall impression and specific responses.

GALADRIEL: We thought the war, at last, was ended.

Galadriel, in a dress (not armour), places a Noldorin helmet on a ginormous pile of such helmets. The battlefield is an utter wreck - dead trees and swamplike mists. Very clearly part of the end of the First Age.

ELROND: Today, our days of peace begin.

A flash of Elrond looking somewhat smug, implied to be watching as Gil-Galad crowns Galadriel with a wreath of leaves. She, and a handful of other elves around her, looks to be in armour with a white cloak. The setting is that stone slab under a very pretty tree that seems to be the main set for Lindon.

GALADRIEL: We thought our joys would be unending.

A quick flash of a banquet in a forest. It's hard to see, but the guests are elves - Elrond, I think Celebrimbor, some dude with long black hair - except for one: Durin IV, raising a glass to the table. There are some very lovely lanterns hanging over the table.

GALADRIEL: We thought our light would never dim.

Pastoral flashes: children in white run along a river, something happens with boats on a beach, and Galadriel on the Swanship apparently sailing west.

SADOC BURROWS: The skies are strange.

Shot of him saying that. Shot of Arondir and Bronwyn watching the meteor; we've seen these before.

Here's something new: a tall tower next to a vast domed building. Apparently this is Numenor, because now we see inside: it's Miriel, and Galadriel, and a Palantir.

Yes, the Palantiri were supposedly given to the Faithful. Given that they're literally named after her dad, I'm going to give Miriel a pass on having one.

MIRIEL: It is here, Galadriel - the moment we feared.

Galadriel puts her hand on the Palantir, and in a series of quick flashes we see: a huge dark battlefield, with Orcs and that one blond elf from the first trailer that I still hope isn't Finrod; the red underwater vision from the last trailer; and Galadriel crying over a body that might be Blond Elf lying in state. It's certainly cut like we're seeing the end of the First Age - "things that were", I suppose.

Now we're back outside, and discover that the shot of Miriel under falling white stuff actually shows either petals or leaves from the White Tree, blowing in the wind.

MIRIEL: Evil does not sleep.

New character alert! A pale, creepy chappie who has been compared to rapper Eminem, hanging out on a rock with two other characters, all dressed in flowing white. I feel like he has a bit of a "priest of Evil" vibe about him; also some very big eyebrows.

MIRIEL: It waits.

Now we see Elrond being led into Moria by a nondescript dwarf, leading to Durin III talking to Durin IV:

DURIN III: Beyond the darkness - tempting shadow - to bury us all beneath the mountain.

I'm... not sure that makes sense. Is Daddy Durin going a bit gaga in his old age? Durin IV is not impressed.

Back to Galadriel, coated in ash, standing up against a red sky. There are burning houses around her; they look mortal, thatched.

MIRIEL: He has not one name, but many.

A dark fortress - or maybe a Dark Tower - lit by lightning gives way to a eye-like rune, growing like frost on rock. We've seen this rune before: it's on the Broken Sword poster, which is now known to be:

THEO: [Gasps]

A creepy old man grabs Theo's arm and looms at him.

CREEPY OLD MAN: Have you heard of him, lad? Have you heard of Sauron?

Cut to Bronwyn hiding in a closet, as someone wearing long, spiky fingered gloves creepily enters the house.

Now we see Theo with the sword, which grows back to full length in a shower of fire and shadow. I'm sure that'll end well!

GALADRIEL: If the evil rising is left unchecked, it will take us all.

Some characters in a frozen, underground location; not sure who. A flash of an anvil-shaped rock with the rune on it, and then, surprise! A giant rock hits several of those present.

Cut to burning ships, and then Bronwyn hugs Theo.

BRONWYN: Find the light, and the shadow will not find you.

Creepy fingers guy walks through a pack of... uh... people in animal-skull hats, maybe? Could be orcs. And then it's another series of rapid images as Bronwyn declares:

BRONWYN: Together we can survive this!

Viggo... um, Elendil (or is that Halbrand?) strides through a Numenorean doorway. Bronwyn says that line to a crowd, one of whom holds up a sword. The possible Oath of Feanor again. Galadriel climbs onto a Numenorean warship.

MIRIEL?: Fight with me.

Galadriel clasps hands with someone; maybe Miriel. Arondir drops onto a bridge for some Legolas-style action. Miriel steps forward holding what certainly seems to be a baby. Disa and a choir of dwarves sing.

Miriel?: Each of us must decide who we shall be.

Durin IV with his special crystal. Bronwyn and Arondir look angsty. Galadriel, Miriel, and the Numenorean cavalry charge. The skull-heads run through a forest. Galadriel swims away from a wrecked ship / the raft as a giant sea-monster leaps over it (looks like a mosasaur to me).

DURIN IV: There can be no trust between hammer and rock.

The Numenorean army marches out. Quite why they need to be running about in full armour on their island is beyond me; maybe it's the easiest way to make sure it all gets to the ships. Durin IV does a kind of fist-salute, and then we're back with the Stranger in the meteor crater, meeting Nori.

DURIN IV: Eventually, one or the other... must surely break.

Arondir fights the skull-heads, who are definitely orcs. There's a quick flash of what looks like the Stranger collapsing in the woods in here, too. Then we cut to the mortal village, probably Tirharad, for our biggest cast roundup yet: Bronwyn, Arondir, Miriel, and Galadriel('s shoulder) are all visible as a shockwave shakes the village. A quick flash of Galadriel in armour with sparks around her.

Fade through black to Priest Guy blowing shadow and sparks from his hand, looking about as evil as anyone can look.

CREEPY VOICE: You have been told many lies of Middle-earth.

An autumn leaf blows through a cave system and comes to rest on the ground - then burns up. I think this is one of the longest continuous shots in the trailer.

Arondor gasps for breath in front of a wall of roots, before something grabs him and pulls him into it. I've seen speculation that the grabbing hands could be branch-like, ie Ents, but the shot is so blurred it's hard to tell.

TITLE: The Lord of the Rings - The Rings of Power

Black, black... rumble... Balrog.

BALROG: [Roars like a T. rex in Jurassic Park]

~

I know, of course, the number one question in all your minds, and the answer is: I can't tell if it has physical wings, but the smoke billowing about it takes on a winglike shape. Hope that helps.

hS
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Old 07-27-2022, 04:05 PM   #31
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Attempting to view RoP as if it were unrelated to or independent of Middle Earth is not an option for me. For this reason, I hope that its quality and faithfulness to at least the spirit of the Legendarium is enough to let me enjoy it. There are gaps in the "history," particularly in the Second Age, broad enough to craft a believable effort to fill in the empty spaces so long as some creditable attempt at consistency is made.
This will continue to be my mantra for now, and I resist the impulse to pick at apparently errant threads. But they do tickle at me a bit...
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Old 07-27-2022, 05:26 PM   #32
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This article is certainly stilted toward a certain position; however, beyond the slanted hyperbole, the sobering commentary of the actors themselves should give some pause regarding the blatant revisionism and modernity being forced into Tolkien's work:

https://boundingintocomics.com/2022/...-of-modernity/

And why does Sauron look like Eminem? Will the real Slim Sauron please stand up, please stand up, please stand up.
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Old 07-27-2022, 06:55 PM   #33
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This article is certainly stilted toward a certain position; however, beyond the slanted hyperbole, the sobering commentary of the actors themselves should give some pause regarding the blatant revisionism and modernity being forced into Tolkien's work:

https://boundingintocomics.com/2022/...-of-modernity/

And why does Sauron look like Eminem? Will the real Slim Sauron please stand up, please stand up, please stand up.
Well that's just terrifying. I hate it when there's a nice fantasy show and then they throw their modern BS opinions in the middle of it. I have quit shows because of it. Do these script writers not realize that people watch their show for escapism? I do not want to be reminded MORE about politics (especially ONE COUNTRIES politics *cough* America *cough*).

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Nomvete then made it abundantly clear this show has nothing to do with Tolkien’s work other than the name of the series and characters.
Kill me now.

Like...I knew it wouldn't be faithful, but...ugh...

I don't believe that Tolkien ever mentioned skin color unless it was actually relevant ie: Orcs are black and their blood is black and they are corrupted. Elves are described as "fair". Dwarves are described as "rock-like" or "hewn of stone" or whatever. Rocks come in a large variety of colors so where's my green Dwarf, huh?

Their whole concept of "modern" appears to be based on skin color.

Now Ismael (Arondir) says that they are trying to modernize Jackson's work, which is more like it. Nomvete needs to read a book by Tolkien and separate Jackson and Tolkien's visions.

Also, don't Elves have long hair? Shouldn't Sauron have long hair? Shadow of Mordor Sauron looks more like what I imagine a "nice" Sauron to look like.
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Old 07-28-2022, 03:16 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Morthoron View Post
This article is certainly stilted toward a certain position; however, beyond the slanted hyperbole, the sobering commentary of the actors themselves should give some pause regarding the blatant revisionism and modernity being forced into Tolkien's work:

https://boundingintocomics.com/2022/...-of-modernity/
That article is genuinely vile. I read it all last night and felt unclean after. I was dreading having to look at it again to respond to it, but luckily Blind Guardian has provided all the quotes I need.

The quotes from the actors/showrunners used by the article make it clear that:

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Their whole concept of "modern" appears to be based on skin color.
(Though the projection of "modern" onto all of those quotes is, I think, the article's doing, not directly from every quote.)

But of course:

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I don't believe that Tolkien ever mentioned skin color unless it was actually relevant...
So when the article says:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vile article
Nomvete then made it abundantly clear this show has nothing to do with Tolkien’s work other than the name of the series and characters.
What it means by 'nothing to do with Tolkien's work' is that it shows non-white characters. Which, as Blind Guardian correctly points out, is something Tolkien said very little on (dude wrote a whole letter to an actual artist and still couldn't be bothered to describe his characters!).

Isn't there a word for declaring that something is being ruined by the very presence of non-white people in it?

HINT: It's racism. It's just racism.

Tolkien created a world - quite possibly the most beautiful secondary world in existence - and he wrote about only tiny slices in space and time. Middle-earth is vast enough - it is grand enough - to include adaptations that don't look like Jackson or Nasmith or Baynes' interpretations of the characters.

There is room in Middle-earth for non-white people to see characters who look like them.

And there is definitely room for people who are white to see characters who don't look like them.

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Also, don't Elves have long hair? Shouldn't Sauron have long hair? Shadow of Mordor Sauron looks more like what I imagine a "nice" Sauron to look like.
I'm not sure why people are so convinced this character is Sauron? He looks like an evil priest to me. Given that Sauron's name is spoken like it's a rumour and a mystery, and the eye-rune seems to be appearing in multiple hidden places, I just figure Eminem is more of the same: a figurehead for Sauronic influence, not Sauron himself.

He's definitely not "nice Sauron"/Annatar, given that he spends his time scowling evilly and blowing sparks and shadow from his hand. You think anyone imagines Celebrimbor would be fooled by that? "Oh, hey Annatar my best buddy, I see you've been building dark citadels filled with the screams of the damned in my garden again. Having trouble sleeping?"

hS
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Old 07-28-2022, 10:01 AM   #35
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That article is genuinely vile.
I've stopped following the news for this show, but this description made me curious. So I skimmed it now during my work break. There are so many things wrong with both the actor quotes and the article itself, and so many levels of misguided criticism in all directions, that there's not even a point in going through them all. But one question I do want to ask: was Tolkien not "for everyone" before this show? Were people not able to "relate" to Tolkien before? They make it sound like they're playing benefactor, cleaning up a gargabe heap to look presentable.

Dependong on what they mean though, this can be a good thing: "everyone sort of has their frame of reference in terms of their culture, their heritage, what it means to them, their language".
It's a comon trend in recent years, to define the quality of a story by certain characteristics of diversity. Certain characteristics only, because some aren't popular topics of contention. Diversity complaints about language haven't made it to the front pages yet, or else Tolkien would be hailed as the great promoter of inclusivity. And the idea that a story NEEDS to meet a diversity checklist to be a good story - sorry, it does not. Diversity in a story is neither bad nor good, but needs to realistically reflect and enrich the setting, the place and the time. Sometimes more is more, but sometimes less is more, deoending on your setting. I don't hear anyone complaining that all the characters in Moana are Polynesian, or Asian in Mulan - because it makes sense, what else would they be. But have a story set in Medieval Europe, and how dare they only depict ethnic Europeans. But that's beside the point, that's just me ranting on the general state of affairs. If RoP actually makes their diversity about more than just skin colour - language, culture, heritage, belief systems - I think it could be a big redeeming factor. Do something with it, make it more than just a checkbox to tick off. I think Lommy picked up on this before at some point. But how much faith do I have in them doing something good with it? Meh, hope dies last, they say. I'm making an effort of seeing the positives.
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Old 07-29-2022, 04:27 AM   #36
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Images from the latest trailer:

Opening shot: Galadriel and the pile of helmets. Looks like a Battle of Beleriand to me.



My favourite shot: Galadriel, Miriel, and a Palantir. The Seeing-Stone is covered here, but it's absolutely gorgeous when they take the cloth off.



And two shots in one: Cultist Eminem, in closeup and with his buddies.



He's definitely designed to look like a priest/cultist - check out that staff! It looks like a human woman on the right of the image, holding what I'm parsing as a drum (she has a hand on top of it, so I don't think shield). On the left could be an armoured human; could be a Numenorean soldier without the helmet plume; could also be an animal-skull orc. I can't really tell.

hS
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Old 07-29-2022, 10:40 PM   #37
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The costume designs are gorgeous. The locations and details to buildings and objects is amazing. I'll give them that. It's definitely visually appealing.
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Old 07-31-2022, 04:01 PM   #38
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Forced "diversity" of melanin levels is just part of the faddish silliness of the age, and gets a lot of people very exercised about trivialities. I am more concerned about the writing- and what I have seen of it suggests that this thing will make the MCU look like Shakespeare.
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Old 08-01-2022, 04:45 AM   #39
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I am more concerned about the writing- and what I have seen of it suggests that this thing will make the MCU look like Shakespeare.
Me too. I think the visuals are stunning. I'm happy with the casting and the characters - sure, short-haired elves look a bit funny, but I can see their Elrond as the young heir of Earendil who will eventually mature into the Master of Rivendell, just as I can believe Arondir as a Wood-elf of some stripe. I'm not super happy about the names in Tirharad and with the Harfeet, but I can cope with them.

Even on the writing side... the dialogue we've heard is decent enough, allowing for the fact that it's been clipped for trailer lines. The overarching plot is fundamentally time-compressed Tolkien - I can accept that for narrative reasons. But the show is going to stand or fall on the in-between stages of the writing - the plot beats, the character decisions, the coincidences and dei ex machina which need to be invoked to get it all to hang together.

And we've seen... basically nothing of that. Galadriel thinks there's baddies around; Elrond apparently doesn't. Galadriel goes on a boat, maybe to Valinor, maybe gets shipwrecked. The dwarves don't like Elrond. Orcs are bad. Miriel has an army, a Palantir, and apparently a baby.

We have no idea how all that hangs together. I feel like we've seen the most out of Galadriel, but I could still write a dozen plots that would fit with her known scenes. It could be terrible! It could be awesome! We could have the entire sequence of events backwards, and the trailers and interviews could have been carefully cut to make us believe the opposite of what's actually in the show!

It's not going to be Tolkien. It can't be - he's dead, and he didn't leave us a novel of the Fall of Numenor, just an array of very brief summaries and some very old drafts. What I, personally, am hoping for is something that feels like an adaptation of the novel Tolkien didn't write - something as close to the hypothetical Numenor book as, say, the Jackson films were to LotR. Yes, there will be Osgiliations and random Haldirs, and "By Elbereth and Luthien the fair" will be replaced by "If you want him, come and claim him" - but I hope it will feel like I can see the book behind it, and imagine that I could reach in and pull a copy out to read.

(The Fall of Numenor doesn't count, though I fully intend to give it a place on my shelf alongside the Great Tales.)

hS
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Old 08-23-2022, 10:51 AM   #40
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There's a brand new trailer out on Amazon Prime. The modern pop song is...blah...What were they thinking?

Also Galadriel is called "Commander" in it and is literally leading a team of people, it looks like, across the ice wastes (Helcaraxë?) in the North. I forget what those are called.

In the first shot, there is a guy screaming that looks laughably fake. Is that supposed to be Feanor? I thought Feanor and the Noldor had black hair? Also didn't he turn to ash when he died? Edit: somehow I completely missed, through my many read throughs of the Sil, that Galadriel is Feanor's niece and not sister. I feel pretty stupid right now.

(Oh no, that song is bad...that song is SO BAD and I like Epic style music be it pop or metal or rock. I can honestly say that I have listened to enough Epic music to say that this song is terrible. The first line is literally "Speak your truth" barf.)

[One person falls over in the snow, ice, and wind]

Person: Commander wait!

Galad: No we keep moving!

Oh sure, just abandon your people instead of giving them a hand. It's not like they were injured or bleeding!


Person: Why do you keep fighting?

Galad [screaming]: There is a tempest in me.

Galadriel doing a video game style flip and slicing at a monster, but she rolls ON HER HAIR. Ouch!

People using a chain attached to horses to knock down Orcs.

An Elf running on chains and jumping impossibly high while swinging an ax.

Galadriel's shoes are literally metal plates and she's in the snow. RIP frost bitten feet.

Lots of shots of Galadriel fighting. It seemed to be her goal and a re-occuring theme as the last line is "You have fought long enough Galadriel, put up your sword" to which she replies "Without it what am I to be?"

This trailer is underwhelming and kind of goofy. At least they fixed the CGI on Galadriel hanging from the cliff.

Here's the link
https://watch.amazon.com/detail?gti=...are_seas&r=web
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