WWLXXI: Something in the Night

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Hm... good point, Izzy. I've been assuiming anyone could bE PairEd with anyone, but Gwath's original post does say ordos and wolves. Still, it could just be that he didn't spell it out. Gwath?

Having wolves be Lovers with one another would seem to be pointless, since they're already able to communicate! The only way I could see that happening is if Gwath assigned the Lovers completely at random.

x/d with Wilwa

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Rikae

I think if the wolves are smart, they're going to do their best to cover their tracks when talking to their lovers (assuming the lovers are innocent). After all, the rules are there in the admin thread for all to see. Actually, I'd expect them to try and trick the ordos into giving away their gifted/ordo status, too. Everyone, remember, lovers don't win together in this game, and be cautious (or even better, clever) in your dealings with lovers, please.
I don't see why it should be easy, or cheating, to play the roles we were given to the best of our ability - wolves have the potential to use the lover relationships to their advantage too, after all. I actually find it a bit suspicious that you're arguing this way, Wilwa.

I agree with this. It was pretty clear in the rules that wolves could be paired with people that weren't wolves.

Also, let's not forget that there is one traditional Lover pair. I wonder if they actually know they're the real Lovers, though?

Speaking of lovers... mine needs to empty their PM box.

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Having wolves be Lovers with one another would seem to be pointless, since they're already able to communicate! The only way I could see that happening is if Gwath assigned the Lovers completely at random.

Wolves can't communicate during the Day though, Lovers can. So it is possible. 2 Gifteds paired up though I think makes more sense, since they don't as commonly communicate. Could really go either way...

And I double checked, Gwath said in his original post that ordos and wolves may be paired together. So it isn't a guarantee, even though I see it as being the most likely scenario.

Ok, really going to stop now. Be back later for some suspicions.

x'ed with Shasta, who thinks like me (regarding the real Lovers)

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

Wolves can't communicate during the Day though, Lovers can. So it is possible. 2 Gifteds paired up though I think makes more sense, since they don't as commonly communicate. Could really go either way...

Hadn't thought of that. That raises the idea of two wolves being able to talk privately during the Day; not a good notion. Two Gifteds paired that way would be helpful, though.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Izzy

Had just realized the/a advantage the wolves could use. Tsk tsk!

I think we have thought of the same thing. So I was not the only one... Let's cross our fingers then... And heh, chew that wolves! (if that speculation is possible in the first place, that is - chew even more of it!)

What comes to this general discussion over the lovers' roles I'd say that those saying it was clear from the start are trying to look better than they are eg. are probably hiding something, as I think it wasn't so clear in the beginning and I don't consider myself the dummiest rule-reader there is on this planet.

It is quite clear now after Gwath's clarification though. And it's good that way.

But we really could talk of other things but just speculate on the roles, really. I need to vote early everyDay as the DL is early morning (well, basically night) to me. I'll take a look back and then vote pretty soon... as odd as it feels to vote at this time of the Day (have I ever been the first to cast a vote?).

[satansaloser2005]

Hey I have to be offline for a while to deal with some personal stuff. Hopefully I'll be back but if not I'll catch up and at least let my lover know my thoughts come Nightfall. Hopefully be back soon.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Inzil

Hadn't thought of that. That raises the idea of two wolves being able to talk privately during the Day; not a good notion. Two Gifteds paired that way would be helpful, though.

I don't really like this post. It has a whiff of "look at me, I'm rooting for the right side (and otherwise completely stating the obvious)" about it.

Nor do I like this, for that matter:

Originally Posted by Inzil

What comes to this general discussion over the lovers' roles I'd say that those saying it was clear from the start are trying to look better than they are eg. are probably hiding something, as I think it wasn't so clear in the beginning and I don't consider myself the dummiest rule-reader there is on this planet.

That "those" would be me, and I don't know what sort of "good" I would be making myself look, except as a savvy reader of admin threads (though easily confused by Noggins). A wolf can read them as well as an innocent can, after all, so I'm certainly not saying it to make myself look good=innocent.
Explaination: I read the thread a while ago and vaguely remembered it, and then Nog came along with his crazy talk and I was all like "whoa" and Wilwa was all "whoa" and then Gwath was like "DUDE" and then I was all like "duh".
(Quotes are paraphrased)

Conclusion regarding Inzil:
...stare...
...stare...
...stare...

WOLF!

Well, maybe.

EDIT: Oh jeez - I just quoted Nog as Inzil! Ok... Inzil is only half a wolf now. What do you want... you both have white icons with a dark picture in the center, and I have 20/200 vision...

[Shastanis Althreduin]

A note - even if two gifted ARE paired up, it doesn't follow that they're going to know each other's identities, so don't bank on that, people.

[Isabellkya]

I had inferred that only ordos could be paired with wolves; because all it said was that ordos may be paired with wolves. It didn't say anything in relation to gifteds being paired with wolves.

If we had arrived at the same conclusion, holy crap is what came to my mind when I realized it. But I don't believe that conclusion to be correct... anymore - thank goodness!

I think in regards to lovers - treat them as another player, just that.
Trust is a luxury in these games, and it isn't given implicitly; even with role reveals. So to go above a step in this situation could prove to be folly.

[Nogrod]

Okay. I went back the thread to see who were the multitude who rushed to say it was clear from the beginning which the rules were and to my surprise I only found Rikae repeating the point multiple times - and Shasta actually just agreeing on the fact that it was clear there could be wolf-innocent lover-pairs... So interesting how fact beats feeling...


But even more interestingly Rikae first says:

Originally Posted by Rikae on #21

I'm a bit confused about the lover roles myself - in fact, I'm going to take another look at the admin thread, since as I understand it the setup seems a bit lopsided in the wolves' favor, but maybe I'm misunderstanding it.

Then on her next post she says:

Originally Posted by Rikae on #22

Just went to the admin thread - so, lover roles don't mean much in game terms, then. That's what I thought, before Nog confused matters above.

And soon she's able to say:

Originally Posted by Rikae on #31

the admin thread indicates these lovers are different...

And finally:

Originally Posted by Rikae on #34

After all, the rules are there in the admin thread for all to see.

So from self-admitted confusion to underlining how the rules are out there loud and clear? It's not something I'd vote for Rikae on Day1 but a reason for caution with her already this early in the game. At least to me the rule was cleared only after Gwath's clarification in the discussion thread a few hours ago and not in the rules themselves when we started.


Anyway.


Now where's Lari?

Also Lottie and Morsul have only posted some banter - and interestingly both have posted lists of suspicions like no one else I think - and on the first hours of the game. Now that might have been for fun, it might have been to encourage discussion (as Lottie actually says explicitly). But I think it is a case to be noticed anyway - at least at this stage of D1.

I think Alonariel, Inzil and Izzy have been openly confused and inquisitive trying to find out things and I'd thus not vote anyone of them toDay as to me they feel the fairest.

I might count Wilwa among them as well, but her post #33 strikes me as something that one could interpret in different ways; the one where she talks of it being unfair against the wolves if the lovers just gave up their mates - like if they knew... or does her lover know she is a wolf? But that would be too clumsy for Wilwa - and as I agree with sportiveness in every role it makes me feel appreciating her general line of thought and thus I would hate to vote for her on that on D1.

What to say about Sally, Glirdy (may I still call you that Glirdan?) and Shasta then?

I'd hate to see Glirdy gone on D1 after he has come back to play after so many years. And actually I think he has been one of the really few who has been making a point on some people (even if an uneducated one concerning me, but anyway) while most others have just concetrated on covering their backs and not making any points on any one person in particular.

Shasta seems to end up being my usual suspect and thus I'm very reluctant to vote him just because I'm having suspicions; I could be wrong once again. Not that he has contributed a lot - but neither have most others.

Sally then is like her playful self which might indicate innocence... but what she says in here makes me a bit worried because of the insight it seems to bear with it:

Originally Posted by Sally on #29

This lover discussion could get out of hand pretty quickly. My theory is that you want your lover to live and they give you extra insight, but if you're on the opposite side from your lover you might be in deep trouble, so it's smart to be careful what you say. The lovers are just for PMing purposes and to make the game a bit more fun. At least that's my opinion.

Like it was something she had actually needed to mull over for a while? Not that I'd say Sally wouldn't be able to think that as an ordo but as that has been the only "serious" thing she has said apart from general banter and fun... well that makes me think. So is that too close for her?


Okay. Needs to think for a moment and then vote. (and read the latest meanwhile)

[Nogrod]

Excuse me Rikae. That latter quote you made inferences on wolfdom was me, not Inzil... Feel free to change your target.

EDIT: heh, I saw you had edited your post already... *Tells self: "Dont be hasty, read everything first..."*

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Rikae

I don't really like this post. It has a whiff of "look at me, I'm rooting for the right side (and otherwise completely stating the obvious)" about it.

Come on, it wasn't that obvious. Speaking of 'obvious', I hope you don't really think I'd be that careless, do you? Aren't you reaching a bit? I really don't want to suspect you this early, though. You and I always seem to react to one another the same way (like someone else I think you know) and I don't want to make the mistake of getting tunnel-vision where you're concerned.

And Nog and I aren't really that similar, are we?

x/d with His Nogginess himself

[Rikae]

Nog -
from the first post of the admin thread:

Originally Posted by Gwathamod

Lovers: All players will have a lover counterpart with whom they can correspond via PM at all times. Ordos and wolves may be paired up. Unlike normal lovers, the lovers in this game will be able to survive if their counterpart is killed.

I guess you'll have to take it on faith that I read that before signing up, and that I thought that was the case before becoming confused by you. Yes, I actually said "as I thought" without having expressed the thought previously in the thread... clearly a wolf slip, better lynch me.

EDIT: Added bolding in quote (bolding mine, of course).

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Isabellkya

I had inferred that only ordos could be paired with wolves; because all it said was that ordos may be paired with wolves. It didn't say anything in relation to gifteds being paired with wolves.

This makes sense.

Has everyone posted? I feel like everyone has.

So I am sitting on my usual Day 1 dilema of not having any suspicions of anyone. Because everyone to me is acting the way they would normally act. This is very frustrating.

Like, I think it's even possible that some people came into Day 1 thinking that their role as Lover took precedence over their role as whatever else (I did, because that's what I thought Lovers were supposed to be like) and are then told that that is not actually the case. Now that could potentially change how some people play. So basically everything said before Gwath clarified the lover roles I'm not taking as strongly, atleast not regarding suspiciousness, because at that time some people could have been focused on their Lover role, and are now focused on their actual role like they should be from now on, which could potentially have changed how they play. I know this probably doesn't apply to everyone, but just incase it is I'm keeping it in mind to avoid my own confusion. Am I making any sense at all?

Wow, I'm just thinking myself in circles now with all these hypotheticals, whenever there's some new dynamic I get crazy about every angle of the game. brain hurts....

gah, I'm supposed to be thinking about who looks suspicious...be back in a while

x'ed with Rikae

[Rikae]

I'll also add that, in regard to wolves being able to read the admin thread, I was replying to Wilwa who implied an innocent should conceal a suspected wolf lover and to do otherwise would be unfair... although I might not refresh my memory of the rules before the game, I can't imagine a wolf would actually say something incriminating to his/her non-wolf lover without checking the rules on that point first. That would be suicide, and the wolf who did it wouldn't deserve any special consideration because xe decided to do something so foolish. That's all I'm saying. I can't believe everyone is so eager to protect a hypothetical slipping wolf - am I in a village of cobblers again, or what?

EDIT: X'd with Wilwa

[Nogrod]

Well then; with D1 standards.


I'm not going to vote:

Izzy & Alonariel feel like concerned people trying to figure out the situation. I feel good about them right now.

Inzil dropped a bit farther away from that company because of his latest post which looks a bit over-reactive. But anyway, looking at his contributions toDay - and the possibility he's arguing with a wolf-Rikae - I'd say I'd not like to lose him on D1 for that.

If I was voting like an hour before the DL or later I would be more than happy to vote for Lari as she hasn't posted a single post. But as there are like four hours left (?) I think it would be unfair to vote for her and not giving her a chance to post - looking at the timezones and all that stuff... But that means D1 only. Being sloppy in the future she would easily gain my vote before the going gets tough as then we can not afford any blind trials. It is in these first stages we can afford them if we ever can.

I will not vote for Glirdy (long time no see & actually trying to make a point on someone and not just babble about generalities) or Shasta (I'd hate to vote him again and be wrong).


Less easy with:

Wilwa: her thoughts on the unfairness of the situation on behalf of the wolves trouble me a bit, but I could see myself thinking along the same lines. So how hypocritical could one become voting for someone because of thinking like you do yourself? So probably not. She has been contributing a host of ideas and that's what we need here anyway.

Rikae: Her protests notwithstanding - or probably because of them - I do actually suspect her somewhat (and not so much on the issue, mind you Rikae, but on the way you first acted like you were confused and then suddenly turned to be the prime champion of the rules' self-evidency; four times already, five... isn't that a bit overdoing it? Now why do you do it? I see no reason an innocdnt might do that). But I'm afraid a bandwagon on an innocent Rikae on D1 would be the jackpot the wolves would love so dearly. So probably not, toDay. She needs to be looked closely (hint-hint). She can be a real asset when the going gets tough if innocent.

Of Lottie and Morsul it's hard to say. Thay have actually behaved in a lot of similar ways - and neither has shown themselves after the very first hours. It might be timezones once again and I'm quite insecure with voting them as especially Morsul seems to be the "usual suspect" - although he tends to slip as a wolf just because of that. Possible candidates, though.

Sally then... Well I think it weird the only serious thought she gives is to the issue of oneself being in deep trouble with the lover being on the opposite team... After all that speculation that might have been just a bit too honest a thought - as you didn't care to ponder on any other "serious issues" before or after that?


So I'm inclined to vote for Sally but I'll take a pause for a cigarette and read anything that has come in meanwhile before voting.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Rikae

I can't imagine a wolf would actually say something incriminating to his/her non-wolf lover without checking the rules on that point first. That would be suicide, and the wolf who did it wouldn't deserve any special consideration because xe decided to do something so foolish.

How come this doesn't sound like an innocent speculation but something someone says out of personal experience? A frustration with your partners perhaps? Add to this the way you make the 180 degree turn on the issue of the self-evidence of the rules?

But even if the rules look like clear now, with Gwath's clarification, why then, if any wolf-lovers knew their mates to be wolves and would know they would win by revealing that, why haven't they stepped forwards already? What are you grasping at Rikae? Why such an intense stance?

Okay. We have a long history of differences and we have gotten each other lynched a host of times for the bad of the village. So I'm not going to vote you toDay, on D1. But if we're around toMorrow I will look at you more closely.

So

++ Sally

I hope to see you toMorrow but if not, I hope I have left thoughts enough to read.

Good n/Night!

[wilwarin538]

So I need to vote now, I might not have the chance to come back on, and since I honestly can't find anything wrong with anyone at this point, I'm going to vote for

++Lariren

I should be able to come on fairly frequently next Day. Good luck!

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

But even if the rules look like clear now, with Gwath's clarification, why then, if any wolf-lovers knew their mates to be wolves and would know they would win by revealing that, why haven't they stepped forwards already?

Oh, I don't know... maybe for the reasons Wilwa gave, and you agreed with? And you accuse me of being inconsistent!

I'm going to have to vote soon, as I have other things to do and don't want to miss the deadline. I'm considering voting for Nog for his nonsensical harping on my supposed 180 turn, ignoring the fact that I went and looked at the admin thread between those posts. The fact is, what I said - which amounts to "I'm not sure about the roles, a wolf would have checked the roles" - would only be inconsistent if I were a wolf, so he's basically arguing from that assumption, which doesn't look very kosher. Trouble is I have a history of going after Nog for saying something that looks bizarre/illogical at the time, and then finding out he's just an ordo... perhaps I'll vote for the other defender of HSW*s, Wilwa... or maybe go for a quiet one after all, though not Lari, since missing Day 1 totally probably has a RL explanation; perhaps Morsul, whose earlier posts unnerved me already.

*Hypothetical Slipping Wolves

EDIT: X'd with Wilwa, whose vote I don't like for the reasons I said I wouldn't vote Lari.

[Nogrod]

I was actually going to sleep but while brushing my teeth I actually came to think about this and thought I'd better share it before logging out.

Now there was something that bothered me with Rikae's stance on the issue, but it was also that something on the whole issue didn't seem like right. And now I think I found the reason for it.

So the rules say this (bolding mine):

Originally Posted by The rules

Lovers: All players will have a lover counterpart with whom they can correspond via PM at all times. Ordos and wolves may be paired up. Unlike normal lovers, the lovers in this game will be able to survive if their counterpart is killed.

So it actually says that the thing that is different from a normal lovers' role is solely the fact that the other part to the relationship can outlive the other - and that is actually nothing unheard of as we've had that kind of games before - and it might have interesting follow-up's depending on how the innocents are able to guess on their lover or how the wolves work with their lovers respectively. And how the allegiances work in the first place - of these I'm quite optimistic.

But that would actually mean also that the winning conditions for lovers will be the same as they always have been, eg. that the lovers only win together as there is no mention about a new ruling where a lover can win without her/his mate. The only difference to the rule is that they can outlive one another (and of course after that freed from the relationship and able to be what they wish). There is no mention of a possible new victory-condition for one lover without another (and what kind of lovers' roles would those be in the first place?).

So I can see now why no-one has come forwards to betray their mate - if they knew the identity of their lover in the first place. And the wolves have probably checked this out already a long time ago and just smile at us trying to figure it out.

So were you not thinking of this Rikae while you boasted on being on top of the issues or did you try to achieve something with your polemics on the issue while knowing it and still trying to look like you didn't?

Well, do not forget that angle to the issue toMorrow.

And good luck!

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Loslote making what look like random accusations,

They were random. I made them up on the spot. Really, I have no idea about any of them. (Except EvilWolfNerwen, of course. )

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Of Lottie and Morsul it's hard to say. Thay have actually behaved in a lot of similar ways - and neither has shown themselves after the very first hours. It might be timezones once again and I'm quite insecure with voting them as especially Morsul seems to be the "usual suspect" - although he tends to slip as a wolf just because of that. Possible candidates, though.

Timezones and the fact that I have had no power for fifteen hours - no heat, no electricity, no running water, and worst of all, no Internet.

[Loslote]

About the lover issue:

I of course don't trust mine completely. They could be a wolf for all I know. But I'm certainly not going to vote them or suspect them. Even if I think they're a wolf, what would be the point of saying "ooh! ooh! lynch x! I think they're a wolf and want to seriously hurt our chances of winning by giving up the power to pm with a wolf and maybe get xem to reveal their packmates!"? Plus, what they say in private is private. No one should be lynched based on what their lover says.

In any case, there would be no reason for someone to think thier lover slipped and revealed that they're a wolf. Wolves are smarter than that. More likely they were an ordo trying to get you to slip and reveal that you're a wolf.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

So it actually says that the thing that is different from a normal lovers' role is solely the fact that the other part to the relationship can outlive the other - and that is actually nothing unheard of as we've had that kind of games before

Really? I only recall a lover who lived a day for a revenge kill and the mod's amusement... or else lover-like roles who still retained their own side's normal allegiances and conditions of winning. Actually, I remember lovers who *did* die together, but were on opposite sides and won with their respective teams, too.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

But that would actually mean also that the winning conditions for lovers will be the same as they always have been, eg. that the lovers only win together as there is no mention about a new ruling where a lover can win without her/his mate. The only difference to the rule is that they can outlive one another (and of course after that freed from the relationship and able to be what they wish.

That doesn't mean any such thing. He didn't say anything about the lovers' winning conditions in the beginning, only that they don't die together; but it makes little sense for lovers who don't die together to win only together. If one dies, the other is alive, but has no role, no motivation. Like I said, I've only seen that once, and that only involved living for a day to make silly random posts.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

So I can see now why no-one has come forwards to betray their mate - if they knew the identity of their lover in the first place

Really? Why? Misguided concern for fairness to wolves? As if I believe that... anyone with a question can always PM the mod. The game is fair... that is, until people (like Wilwa's lover, maybe? Or Wilwa herself?) start working for the other team for meta-game reasons. If it's not part of your role, it's not fair, and if the wolves win because innocents are letting them win, I'm going to be royally ticked off.

EDIT: X'd with Loslote's 2nd post.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Loslote

Even if I think they're a wolf, what would be the point of saying "ooh! ooh! lynch x! I think they're a wolf and want to seriously hurt our chances of winning by giving up the power to pm with a wolf and maybe get xem to reveal their packmates!"?

And if you die, this would be so incredibly helpful to the village.

Originally Posted by Loslote

Plus, what they say in private is private. No one should be lynched based on what their lover says.

Where does it say that in the admin thread? Stop making up rules. Just because it seems nice and romantic doesn't mean it's good WW. Plus, if this were true it would be bad form for gifteds to reveal, too.

Originally Posted by Loslote

In any case, there would be no reason for someone to think thier lover slipped and revealed that they're a wolf. Wolves are smarter than that. More likely they were an ordo trying to get you to slip and reveal that you're a wolf.

Unless I missed something, these wolves, like most wolves, know each other's roles anyway... so a lover going "ooh, I'm a wolf, are you one too?" isn't going to accomplish much.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Rikae

And if you die, this would be so incredibly helpful to the village.

Where does it say that in the admin thread? Stop making up rules. Just because it seems nice and romantic doesn't mean it's good WW. Plus, if this were true it would be bad form for gifteds to reveal, too.


Unless I missed something, these wolves, like most wolves, know each other's roles anyway... so a lover going "ooh, I'm a wolf, are you one too?" isn't going to accomplish much.

Oh, but I like things to be nice and romantic, plus no one ever can quote pms. Isn't that one of the basic foundation rules of WW? Unless Gwath says he's changing that, I'm assuming we can't use pm reasoning, because it would be basically meta.

And how does that link to gifteds??

[wilwarin538]

What Nog said makes sense, and is honestly exactly what was going through my head until Gwath's clarification.

During Night 1 I was distinctly under the impression that the only thing that made us different from traditional Lovers was that we don't die together, I assumed everything else was the same, therefore assumed that our main goal (as long as our love was alive) was to survive til the end with our lover, no matter what side won. Rikae, this may not be how you understood it, but it's clearly how some others understood it (including at least me and my lover).

Aswell my lover and I were under the impression that we could tell each other our roles. So we did. Because we thought our Lover role was priority over our other role, and therefore believed that knowing each other's role would help us achieve a win as Lovers (since at the time that's what we thought the goal was).

So if we don't restart and we continue as is, any information I gained from my private PMs with my partner will remain between him and I, at least as long as both of us are alive. You may not agree with that, but it doesn't seem fair to me for either of us to use any information we may have gained from each other in private, when that information was collected when we had a different understanding of the dynamics of the game. It's not fair to anyone.

[Rikae]

You don't need to quote PMs to reveal things. Gifteds reveal their roles without posting their role PMs from the mod, after all! This doesn't mean you can't say "I know so-and-so is such-and-such because xe is my lover and told me". Any more than "I know xe is such-and-such because I'm the seer and dreamt of xem". Yes, either way, we don't know whether the person is telling the truth, but if they aren't, they'll be caught soon enough.

EDIT: X'd with Wilwa, in reply to Loslote.

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Loslote

plus no one ever can quote pms. Isn't that one of the basic foundation rules of WW? Unless Gwath says he's changing that, I'm assuming we can't use pm reasoning, because it would be basically meta.

This is true.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Rikae

You don't need to quote PMs to reveal things. Gifteds reveal their roles without posting their role PMs from the mod, after all! This doesn't mean you can't say "I know so-and-so is such-and-such because xe is my lover and told me". Any more than "I know xe is such-and-such because I'm the seer and dreamt of xem". Yes, either way, we don't know whether the person is telling the truth, but if they aren't, they'll be caught soon enough.

EDIT: X'd with Wilwa, in reply to Loslote.

The quoting pms was the only thing I was talking about. If you think your lover is a wolf, by all means find reasons in their posts to suspect them. Just don't use the argument "they said x to me, therefore they are evil." What they say to you in private should stay there. What they say in public is another matter entirely, and that is fair game.

And what would be the point of faking that you think your lover is a wolf? A fake seer reveal can be faked well and last for a few Days. A fake lover reveal, where you say your lover is a wolf and they aren't, can only last one.

EDIT: xed with Wilwa

[Rikae]

*shakes head*

So, Wilwa, either you're a wolf or an ordo protecting a wolf. Knowing the rules before acting on them is each player's responsibility, and we can all PM Gwath if unsure. I can see how you're trying to do the honorable thing (if you're innocent) but there's also a good chance you're making this argument for your lover, or your packmate's lover to follow... I'm not trying to be mean here, but this is my best lead at this point and I really can't stay at the computer longer toDay, so:

++Wilwa

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Also Lottie and Morsul have only posted some banter - and interestingly both have posted lists of suspicions like no one else I think - and on the first hours of the game. Now that might have been for fun, it might have been to encourage discussion (as Lottie actually says explicitly). But I think it is a case to be noticed anyway - at least at this stage of D1.

Okay. Needs to think for a moment and then vote. (and read the latest meanwhile)

reread my list let me quote the bottom bit;

This list is not a guilty/not guilty list merely what I'm expecting to see...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Loslote

In any case, there would be no reason for someone to think thier lover slipped and revealed that they're a wolf. Wolves are smarter than that. More likely they were an ordo trying to get you to slip and reveal that you're a wolf.

Ahh, are we still on about this? If someone had good information on a wolf, I would expect them to reveal it. If that doesn't occur, I have to conclude nothing of the sort is available. There's no way to know if someone is holding out or not, is there? I don't get what you mean by the last part, Lottie. Would the real wolves not be fully aware who their packmates were?

So. Voting-time isn't too far away. What have we?

I'm reluctant to vote for Rikae, despite a general feeling of misgiving. It's pretty standard for me to suspect her, as I said, so I'd like to have something more concrete to go on.

Sally is..Sally. Rather odd and not around too much (the first bit's a compliment) . I don't think it should be her toDay.

Morsul... not a great deal to work with, but probably the brightest ping on the radar. His early response to Lottie's joking suspicion on him seemed strange. Like I said, it admittedly isn't much, but it may be the best shot I see for toDay.

Wilwa...well, lots of talk about the Lover roles, and a vote for Lari. It's the latter that I dislike more, since I generally don't like going for someone who hasn't been around on Day 1, especially when there could have been RL reasons for it. She said she couldn't find anyone else, which is plausible for Day 1, I guess. Still one to watch.

Nog goes after a semi-submarine, which seems fairly in-character for him. But I don't recall him really giving a reason to vote her. Hmm.

Shasta: Who's that? Is he playing?

Alon: don't really recall much from her except IC stuff and references to some decadent soiree in Boston...

I feel like I'm missing someone.

x/d with the last 5 posts or so

[Loslote]

Okay, so unless we start over, I have to vote pretty soon.

I'm not voting Glirdan or Izzy because I've never played with them before. I'm not voting Morsul because I always want to when he's not evil. I'm not voting Shasta because what I've seen so far makes sense. I'm not voting Rikae because she doesn't seem evil, even if we disagree about the pm thing. I'm not voting Lottie 'cause I'm not Nilp.

I'd perfer not to vote for Inzil, Sally, Lari, or Alona.

I might vote for either Nogrod or Wilwa. So far it's just a gut feeling, but I'll look more closely at them.

EDIT: xed with Rikae, Morsul, and Inzil.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Loslote

The quoting pms was the only thing I was talking about. If you think your lover is a wolf, by all means find reasons in their posts to suspect them. Just don't use the argument "they said x to me, therefore they are evil." What they say to you in private should stay there. What they say in public is another matter entirely, and that is fair game.

"Quote", in my understanding of werewolf (after three years of playing), means a direct quote. Mentioning something one learned through PMing, as long as one doesn't quote, is certainly not forbidden. Gifted pairs have done it, lovers have done it... I've absolutely seen a ranger who could PM with a seer say, after the seer's death "he told me X". There is nothing wrong with it.

Originally Posted by Loslote

And what would be the point of faking that you think your lover is a wolf? A fake seer reveal can be faked well and last for a few Days. A fake lover reveal, where you say your lover is a wolf and they aren't, can only last one.

Did I say it would last longer? One day can mean a lot sometimes.

EDIT: X'd with Morsul, Inzil, Loslote.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Ahh, are we still on about this? If someone had good information on a wolf, I would expect them to reveal it. If that doesn't occur, I have to conclude nothing of the sort is available. There's no way to know if someone is holding out or not, is there? I don't get what you mean by the last part, Lottie. Would the real wolves not be fully aware who their packmates were?

I feel like I'm missing someone.

Sorry. Never been a wolf. That should have been obvious...

Glirdan, Izzy, me, and Lari.

EDIT: xed with Rikae.

[Morsul the Dark]

wilwa and Lari voted each other nog voted sally I have to read more...

Lottie you're right! right now I am confused

[Glirdan]

And I have returned....too more posting about the topics of the Lovers.....Why are we still debating this?? I thought everything was cleared up yet a certain butterfly of ours keeps bringing it up.....Maybe her wings are actually more furry then they appear?? That is what I am inclined to believe at this current moment, but there is still a couple of more hours for me to vote. So I shall go back and thoroughly re-read Wilwa's posts and see if I can find anything.

Oh and:

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I'd hate to see Glirdy gone on D1 after he has come back to play after so many years. And actually I think he has been one of the really few who has been making a point on some people (even if an uneducated one concerning me, but anyway) while most others have just concetrated on covering their backs and not making any points on any one person in particular.

Thank you!! Although I am not entirely without reasoning behind suspecting you. You're usual Day 1 ranting has not been brought up! That was a shock. Instead, you and Wilwa began the debates on the Lovers topic! That's really all the suspicions I have for you and definitely not near enough to vote for you at this time. As I said, I am more concerned about Wilwa and have had suspicions since earlier toDay.

I am off now to go do some homework (aka read Wilwa's posts thoroughly) and will be back shortly!

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Rikae

"Quote", in my understanding of werewolf (after three years of playing), means a direct quote. Mentioning something one learned through PMing, as long as one doesn't quote, is certainly not forbidden. Gifted pairs have done it, lovers have done it... I've absolutely seen a ranger who could PM with a seer say, after the seer's death "he told me X". There is nothing wrong with it.


Did I say it would last longer? One day can mean a lot sometimes.

EDIT: X'd with Morsul, Inzil, Loslote.

Yes, after their death. Before that there are reasons why they told you one thing and everyone else the other. Personally, I'm too "nice" (as in infuriatingly so, not that anyone else isn't) to consider doing that. Probably this is another occasion of my acting silly, but I still wouldn't. After their death, of course, it's all fine and dandy, they can't be affected by it anymore. But what they pmed was in confidence, trusting that you would treat it that way, and as long as they're alive and could be harmed by it...

Also, you wouldn't get the whole story. Maybe someone pmed "Grr I hate seers" in the context of "I wonder who they'll dream they'd better not dream me because that would be a waste grr I hate seers because they only get one dream per night" (yes, lame example, but you get the point). Just because they say something, if you can't see the whole thing you're bound to make a mistake.

EDIT: xed with Morsul and Glirdan

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

Lottie you're right! right now I am confused

Um...about what, exactly, was I right about and you are confused about?

[Morsul the Dark]

Ok.... so Lottie seems to be leaving me alone...it's odd for her.

Sally randomness and such nothing surprising there

Wilwa...sadly you are on my radar...
Rikae...
Nogrod...

Wolf on Wolf on Wolf??

Lari however doesn't seem suspicious at all adding to Wilwa...

so...

++Wilwa