Was it mean by Elrond?

[Mlo]

I'm sorry if anyone has posted anything like this before, but I couldn't find anything, so...

Does anyone more than me think it was quite mean by Elrond to tell Aragorn to be king before he was allowed to marry Arwen? Ok, I understand, Arwen was precious to him and that, but Aragorn had lived at Rivendell for a long while, and was probably like a son to him, and could easily have been killed while trying to get king.

And Thingol made the same thing when he told Beren to get the silmarills from the crown of Morgoth, before he could marry Luthien. Was it mean by them to do that? It just doesn't seem so nice to me... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[GildorInglorion]

Both Elrong and Thingol were very wise and saw far ahead.

Maybe the reason that Aragorn succeded with all that he did was Elrond's promise of a great reward.

My interpretation is thatn it was not evil, it was out of deep concern for ME.

With Thingol I'm not so sure, he was a bit selfish and suspicious. Maybe a subconscious concern.

[Mlo]

Yes, Arwen was precious to ME, I know, I know. But they loved eachother, and so did Beren and Luthien, and Elrond was actually not so nice...

Many years of trial lie before you. You shall neither have a wife, nor bind any woman to you in your troth, until your time comes and you are found worthy it -Elrond

So if I have gotten this right, Aragorn wasn't allowed to marry ANY woman. Now that isn't right. Ok, he loved Arwen, but what if he had loved someone else, ehrm...

[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: Mlo ]

[Gayalondiel]

aside from all the deep issues of foresight and such, it's not the easiest decision in the world to lose your daughter like that. Both fathers were expecting their children to live forever, but here come these men and inflict mortal death on them. And its not like they get a long time to deal before it happens - the life span of a mortal, even a long-lived one like Aragorn, is basically peanuts to an Elf. So yes, they probably are a bit bitter about it, but that's pretty undersatndable really.

[Raefindel]

I know it's hard for us modern thinikers to understand. I can just hear it "Dad! I'm 2800 years old! I can make my own decisions!" But Mlo I think you hit on the key to Elrond's decision in your original post;

but Aragorn had lived at Rivendell for a long while, and was probably like a son to him, and could easily have been killed while trying to get king.

Consider that possibility from Elrond's point of view; Your daughter marries a mortal and gives up her immortality. Then next month or next year her husband is killed in a quest to gain his rightful throne. What kind of life would have been left to Arwen then? Married a year or two to a wanna-be and then she'd die of a broken heart. Elrond definately had her best interests at heart.

[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: Raefindel ]

[akhtene]

As for Beren&Luthien, I don't remember that in their time it was known that an elf could give up his/her immortality. It was after Beren's death that she sang before Mandos, and then Manwe gave her the choice.
So imho Thingol was simply trying to get rid of an unworthy in-law-to-be (in case he refuses or gets killed). I can't imagine he believed that an unhappy mortal could stand up to a Vala.

As for Elrond, the quest he set for Aragorn was more realizable - with Elrond's advice and his sons' assistance - and besides, it had to be done. Elrond showed his wisdom, securing the future of his only daughter (as well as he could) and perhaps motivating the greatest Man of the time to claim and win what was his by right.

[hobbitlass]

I think another reason us modern people are forgetting, Raefindel was on the right track, is the fact that the women were taken care of by the men. First the father than the husband.
I know there are examples where women took care of themselves, but that would not be the norm. So, as Raefindel pointed out, can you imagine marrying Aragorn THEN he leaves you for a quest that he might not come back from.

I think Elrond was not only thinking about his own daughter but women in general, maybe even Eowyn. I do not think Elrond was mean.

[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: hobbitlass ]

[Evenstar1]

To further the thoughts of Raefindel and hobbitlass: Even if Aragorn died soon after becoming King, at least that would leave Arwen well-off, as the Queen.

But I think there was more to it, from Elrond's point of view. I think he knew that Aragorn was a decent man, but that he had not yet been "tested" -- in deep and challenging ways -- in his life yet. But by the time he had accomplished all of his Herculean Tasks, so to speak, he was an even better person: truly worthy of Elrond's daughter.

Note: I read somewhere that Elrond in some ways represented the priest who raised JRRT and his younger brother after their mother died. The priest, Fr. Francis, sternly opposed Tolkien's romance with Edith (future Mrs. Tolkien) because she wasn't Catholic. So Tolkien went to great lengths to convert the girl with whom he was madly in love so that he could marry the woman who was the inspiration for Luthien.

[Scapegoat]

One should keep in mind that the concept of 'marrying for love' hasn't always been the norm in human history. Even in some cultures today marriages are arranged by the family with the bride and groom having little if any imput. Tolkien grew up in a time when parents still had a great deal to say over such things. He himself was commanded not to even see Edith Bratt (his future bride) until he was 21 and fending for himself. He was 16 at the time.
Now days a parent isn't expected to do much more than pay for the wedding.

[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: Scapegoat ]

[Tirned Tinnu]

Oh, my, Evenstar1 and Scapegoat!
I did not consider that Elrond could have been symbolic of someone in Tolkien's life! Well done. Thank you for posting that.

Now, getting on towards Elrond's relationship with Aragorn and his requirements of Aragorn before allowing marriage:

I have always believed that Elrond had the power to see much of the future. Perhaps his view was a bit hazy, though, and he desired to firm it up a bit by making sure the time was right before giving his daughter away - even to his trusted foster-son.

I still wonder if Aragorn argued with Elrond, or if Elrond laid down the law and Aragorn accepted it like the noble fellow that we know him to be. I don't expect that Aragorn whined. I know that he was schooled in his future and what was ahead of him. The fear of the unknown was what he grappled with, and what worried Elrond.
When I finally understood the scene (where the party is about to leave Rivendell) I was left with many questions. Did Aragorn speak with Arwen and Elrond at the same time, or was she only allowed to see him once? I thought that she was a bit stiff, not getting up from the table at the feast (earlier in the book) and introducing herself to Frodo, and speaking with no-one for that matter. Perhaps she had already been given the news. I think that she might have been mourning Aragorn's plight, or attempting to hatch a plan herself. After all, it's at that point in the story of Beren and Luthien that Luthien is imprisoned. She ran away after that, through much effort. Perhaps Arwen was brooding on the possibility of following Aragorn into the wild rather than being held in Rivendell, to await the news of his success or defeat.

When Frodo mentions to Aragorn that he has seen Arwen, and asks Aragorn why he did not attend the feast, Aragorn chides him and reminds him that there were other things to be attended to, such as scouting and planning for their trip. His attitude is business until he runs off to see Arwen. Perhaps it was then that he got the news of Elronds plans for him.

Now that I think about it, if my father (a man whom I respected to no end) had asked the same of me, I would have had faith in his forecasting and done exactly as he bade me. That's right, no questions asked. Such might have been the love Aragorn had for his foster-father. (And the love Tolkien had for the priest who was his mentor?) [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I must stop typing. I'm beginning to babble.
[img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[Diamond18]

I really have no trouble agreeing with Elrond's methods of going about things in the book. (I find him a bit different in the movie!) He doesn't forbid Arwen from ever marrying Aragorn. You have all discussed his reasons for putting the King stipulation on the match. All well and good. I have nothing to add on that.

Elrond realized something that Thingol did not, I think. In both cases, Arwen and Lúthien were already in love. Will a marriage vow alter their feelings? I don't think so. Point: their hearts were doomed to be broken anyway. Either they would be broken by the deaths of their husbands, or by being forbidden to marry them. It was really a lose lose situation.

So Thingol really couldn't do anything to save his daughter. What I'm getting around to it the old saying, "It is better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all." Thingol and Elrond did not have control of their daughters' emotions...they could not tell them who or who not to love. They could only let them marry the men they loved and deal with the pain that would incur, or cause them pain by sundering them from the men they loved while the men still lived!

That is why Elrond let his daughter go. Thingol ended up letting his daughter go as well, but only after a lot of kicking and screaming. In the end, they both lost a daughter, but if you consider that even had Arwen and Lúthien stayed with them, they would have been broken versions of their former selves, and therefore would have caused their fathers sorrow.

[Evisse the Blue]

I've always kinda disliked Elrond, for reasons i cannot quite name. Yes, he's wise and all, but...he has something selfish about him - and that is very transparent when he tells Aragorn that unless he's king he cannot marry Arwen.

That sounds to me like a petty and 'unelvish' thing to say.

I know most of you disagree, especially in the light that Elrond was inspired by the priest whom Tolkien obviously cared a lot for. But - you can care a lot for someone and still be selfish in your actions. Elrond obviously didn't consider that Arwen would have been miserable without Aragorn. He just thought about how miserable he would be if he lost her.

[Eowyn of Ithilien]

Surely Arwen was a major inspiration to Aragorn in his quest...if Aragorn hadn't hunted for Gollum and been a major force behind the War, would "good" have triumphed?
Perhaps Elrond is even wiser than we think.

[Mlo]

Yes, perhaps he was, maybe without the thought of being able to marry Arwen when getting king, Aragorn wouldn't have tried so hard. But Elrond still seems a little, hmm, well, don't know what to call it...

But I also kinda dislike him, and Thingol too... When I read the Silmarillion, I got that "mean" feeling from him... Elrond is a little better than Thingol, less mean...

And what really disturbs me is Elrond's talk about Aragorn nothing being worthy Arwen and all that... It's just not right of him to say so... ok, I'm probably babbling jibberish right now...... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[ October 19, 2002: Message edited by: Mlo ]

[GildorInglorion]

I have been thinking of Thingol and Elrond. The more I think about it, Elrond is extremely good and wise, and Thingol (hm... my english is not the best, but opposite of Elrond)

What Thingol asked of Beren was something close to completely impossible. A great army, lead by Fëanor, greatest of all Noldor, couldn't accomplish it.

And Thingol must have known that if Beren succeded (which was not impossible, n enormous fate lay upon him), it would not be good for ME. When thinking abouT the oath of Fëanor, the best place for the silmarills may have been Morgoth's crown!

Thingols decission was made out of selfishnes. Also, Luthien opposed him several times, even fled him, Arwen didn't do anything like that i think.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

I think in pondering Elrond issues, it is important to remember that he is really the common link among all books. So, even though we never really get a sense of his personality like we do even of Galadriel, he is not merely a supporting character. Although at the time of writing the "Hobbit", JRRT may have had other notions for the Peredhil, that is perhaps the most meaningful description of him. The fact is that Elrond is Half-Elven, but with the life of an Elf.

Arwen and her brothers are the same until Elrond leaves for Eldamar, at which time they must choose to join him, or have the fate of Men (although perhaps not on the exact same boat, such that we cannot be sure about Elladan or Elrohir)

So, Elrond has personal and valid issues for not wanting to be separated from Arwen for all time and to see her relinguish her gift for less than a supreme coupling.

For Elrond, I think it's clear that he had enormous respect for Elendil, probably second only to Gil-Galad, and he was Elrond's ultimate image of what a great King of Men should be, and he was the last true ruler of Arnor and Gondor.

Also, I think Elrond knows that only with the return of such a King will he be able to leave Middle-Earth in Peace. Otherwise, it would be as a final escape from Sauron, for which he would need to have Arwen escape too.

So, if Sauron prevails, and the two were married, that would be unthinkable.

If there is no resolution to the age-long struggle during Aragorn's lifetime, then you really have an odd situation. Arwen might be an immortal widow, still capable of going with her father, who has not yet left Middle-Earth. That wouldn't be right.

Finally, it is not just a father-daughter think, or an Elf-Man thing. But a matter of Royalty. Arwen is a princess, decended from the greatest Royal line of both kindreds. Aragorn is too, though more than adquately distant. Yet, he has no kingdom, royal blood or not. So, it really is not possible for him to marry her, unless he can give a fitting throne.

[ October 19, 2002: Message edited by: Man-of-the-Wold ]

[ October 21, 2002: Message edited by: Man-of-the-Wold ]

[Ravenna]

In many ways, Elrond is no different to the fathers in so many epic stories. The ardent suitor is told he has to prove himself worthy of marrying the princess.
In real life too, many young couples are, or were at one time, expected to wait until the parents are certain that the man can support his bride properly, and that their love is going to last, Elrond, may have gone a bit further than this, but the same priciples apply.
As to the accusation that Elrond is acting out of selfishness, in not wanting to lose his daughter, I cannot altogether blame him considering the circumstances, and also I think he was thinking of Arwen's welfare, not necessarily just her happiness. He was not going to let her commit herself to a mortals life without ensuring that she would be safe and happy and have no cause to regret her choice.
The marriage of a mortal to an elf is an occurrence of huge significance, and tha mortal has to be pretty darn special to earn that honour. Leaving Idril and Tuor aside, as their fate was very different and does not really compare, we are left with Beren and Luthien. As has already been said, Beren's task was imo, much harder to achieve, and was laid upon him maliciously by Thingol, both to get rid of an unwanted suitor, and out of greed for a silmaril. Elrond, on the other hand, whilst setting an extremely high standard for Aragorn to reach, never seems to me to be quite so set against the marriage happening eventually, but rather seems to be saying that 'if you want to marry my daughter, a descendant of Luthien, you must prove yourself as great a man as Beren was, or you won't deserve to have her'. Considering what Arwen was to give up by marrying Aragorn, I have never thought that this was too terribly unreasonable a way to think.
Final thought, would you really want your daughter to stay in a land ruled by a tyrant like Sauron, living a rough life etc, when you could keep her safe in Valinor? Which is what would have happened if Aragorn had married Arwen first and then not fulfilled Elrond's dictum, and Sauron had won.

[Evenstar1]

Oh, my, Evenstar1 and Scapegoat!
I did not consider that Elrond could have been symbolic of someone in Tolkien's life! Well done. Thank you for posting that.

You're welcome, Tirned Tinnu! Glad to be appreciated! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

To add a little to the Fr. Francis story, it goes something like this (or mostly like this, since I don't have my source right in front of me):

Tolkien both loved and respected the stern priest, but they reached a sticking-point in their relationship when it came to Edith. In fact, though he obeyed the letter of the priest's law, he took "loopholes" wherever he could find them and Fr. Francis was dismayed to find that though he'd said JRRT couldn't see Edith, the youth had continued to write to her! So Fr. Francis put a stop to that, too. Finally, when Tolkien was free to see her, he discovered that she was soon to be married to someone else. He immediately rushed to see her and in a very short time (I believe it was over the course of 3 days), won her heart back. But Fr. Francis' lack of approval for the object of Tolkien's affections had taken its toll on their relationship: he was too uncomfortable to tell the priest of the impending nuptuals until just days before the event! Fr. Francis felt bad that he'd created such awkwardness between them, having only had Tolkien's best interests at heart, and offered to perform the ceremony. Alas! Another priest had already been chosen!

(My source is: "Tolkien: Man and Myth" by Joseph Pierce)

Aragorn and Arwen never had to deal with quite this extreme of an interrelationship with her father. Perhaps the Elrond/Arwen/Aragorn triangle is the way Tolkien wished things could have been in his own life.

[ October 21, 2002: Message edited by: Evenstar1 ]

[Tirned Tinnu]

Ohhhhh, one two three, everybody do it in unison! "***BigRomanticSiiigggggghhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!***" (Tinnu adds in a fainting spell of bliss.)
Thank You again, Evenstar1, you've made my day. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ October 22, 2002: Message edited by: Tirned Tinnu ]

[red]

I think many of you are missing an important point. When Elrond says, "You shall neither have a wife, nor bind any woman to you in your troth, until your time comes and you are found worthy it," he is foretelling. He is not making up the rule. It is a fact that exists and he is simply pointing it out. So he is not being mean and selfish as some of you say. Remember, Elrond had a knack for seeing the future. This is one of those cases.

[Aralaithiel]

I'd also like to add to the equation of Elrond the fact that his own twin brother chose mortality. I think that knowing that his daughter was to become mortal just as his twin added to his sorrow.
Just a thought...

[Matthew2754]

Do not argue with the judgement of the wise.

[red]

It *wasn't* a judgment. That's my whole point.

[Magician of Nathar]

I think Elrond's act is quite reasonable for a father. To allow Arwen marrying Aragorn is like sending her to death, I still marvel he actually did agree to the marriage. Thingol on the other hand, isn't excatly the best daddy ever, but he is still understandable. The only odd ball is Turgon. How come he let his daughter marry a mortal without the least hesitation? Weird.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

I think Turgon is the only one who can act with simple truth. The two love each other, and Tuor is a great leader and loved by his people, much as other of the great Elf-friends of the First Age, ironic that they be of the lesser race! In any case, Turgon has no idea of the consequences, and is simply doing what his heart says is right.

For Thingol, he throws out the quest to Beren in a perhaps mocking and foolish way, and he is also being entrapped by the Doom of Mandos, but more importantly fulfilling the Destiny of the Edain and the War of the Great Jewels, consistent with Ulmo work and other forces. Melian chatises him in kind. But he actually recants it, and in fact both Beren and Luthien are prepared to disregard, except for the meaning for Luthien's greatness.

For Elrond, decendent of both, and perhaps disappointed with Men, but not scornful, as some Elves might be, he does what is I think is really the only best thing that he can do for the sake of both his daughter and is foster-son -- in veiw of, royalty, the great struggle, Aragorn's potential, Arwen's gift, and so forth.

So, in summary, Turgon has the joy of doing the right thing in the glory of Gondolin; Thingol speaks rashly but is really the tool of crossing fates, and Elrond is simply being wise in the face of hard reality.