Orcs... were elves?

[Inziladun]

Just to stir this old pot again, let's add the Drúedain to the possible source of Orc-stock.

The UT essay regarding them makes a point of saying they and the Orcs had a particularly adversarial relationship. Though, to be fair, the same has been noted between the Orcs, and the Elves and Dwarves too.

However, there's an interesting footnote (# 5) which says that "Orcs and Drûgs each regarded the other as renegades." The two certainly never helped one another or lived together, so a relationship seems to be the best explanation for their mutual feelings.

Now, the same footnote makes a point of saying the Elves themselves did not believe in the relationship because "their laughter and the laughter or Orcs are as different as is the light of Aman from the darkness of Angband." That would seem to be a rather shaky basis on which to dismiss the theory though, since it seems obvious that the Drúedain, like any other potential sources from which Morgoth could have bred Orcs, could easily have been so altered after he got through that they were in effect different creatures.

The Drúedain were said to be short, some as small as four feet, so they could account for the smaller breeds, maybe. And perhaps the "tracker" orc encountered by Frodo and Sam inside Mordor would have had Drûg blood? Ghân-buri-Ghân himself was able to scent a change in the wind.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hey, Zil, that's not a bad idea at all, and interesting one. For sure, Orcs existed before Men even appeared, but of course "continuous breeding" is more than possible. I have just one remark:

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The Drúedain were said to be short, some as small as four feet, so they could account for the smaller breeds, maybe. And perhaps the "tracker" orc encountered by Frodo and Sam inside Mordor would have had Drûg blood? Ghân-buri-Ghân himself was able to scent a change in the wind.

I think, maybe, that where I like the idea, I don't think there's a need for linking especially the "little snuffler"-type of Orc with the Drûg. After all, the Orcs were probably so much interbred after all the centuries that it was a diverse mixture of everything that ever came out of Utumno. That's not to say that the Orcs' sense of smell might not be a relic from their Drûg ancestry (because after all, Elves or Men normally don't have such a great and prominent sense of smell. Unless it is some derivation of Elvish generally keen senses?). But I wouldn't link both the small size and the smell with Drûg ancestry of this particular kind of Orc. After all, there have been millenia in between...

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Now, the same footnote makes a point of saying the Elves themselves did not believe in the relationship because "their laughter and the laughter or Orcs are as different as is the light of Aman from the darkness of Angband." That would seem to be a rather shaky basis on which to dismiss the theory though, since it seems obvious that the Drúedain, like any other potential sources from which Morgoth could have bred Orcs, could easily have been so altered after he got through that they were in effect different creatures.

I think this is a notable description. Internally Tolkien wasn't necesarily going to have anything known for certain about the origin of orcs, but from an external perspective he delves into possible candidates: Elves, Men, beasts, Maiar... never the Drúedain or 'early Hobbits' however. And then (internally again) he has the Elves negate an idea regarding the Drúedain because of... laughter! the light of Aman versus the darkness of Angband. I know it seems strange, but something about this particular 'tell' makes me (at least) think it's more likely to be true.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

For sure, Orcs existed before Men even appeared, but of course "continuous breeding" is more than possible.

But we should note that Tolkien was quite aware that the chronology needed changing for his Orcs from Men/Maiar idea to make sense, and he intended to make adjustments. The more well known sequence of events hails from the 1977 Silmarillion, and since Christopher Tolkien wasn't going to try and incorporate the later sketched out chronology, the opinion of the Wise of Eressea was the natural enough decision for his published Silmarillion -- admittedly giving weight to the idea that Orcs began with corrupted Elves, even though the absolute 'truth' simply was not known.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I don't think there's a need for linking especially the "little snuffler"-type of Orc with the Drûg. After all, the Orcs were probably so much interbred after all the centuries that it was a diverse mixture of everything that ever came out of Utumno. That's not to say that the Orcs' sense of smell might not be a relic from their Drûg ancestry (because after all, Elves or Men normally don't have such a great and prominent sense of smell. Unless it is some derivation of Elvish generally keen senses?). But I wouldn't link both the small size and the smell with Drûg ancestry of this particular kind of Orc. After all, there have been millenia in between...

For sure, by the time of Frodo and Sam's foray into Mordor there had been enough time for very many bits and pieces of different races to manifest themselves in various ways in Orcish behaviour and appearance.

Originally Posted by Galin

On the external side, Tolkien delves into possible candidates: Elves, Men, beasts, Maiar... never Drugs or 'early Hobbits' however; and then here, he has the Elves negate an idea because of... laughter! to me this speaks to a deeper perception, a factor that some Men might not even notice -- thus (in my opinion) giving it a greater ring of truth.

In other words, that laughter would seem a somewhat dubious 'tell' makes it all the more likely to my mind, especially with the description chosen to separate them -- the light of Aman versus the darkness of Angband. To me this seems very Elvish and on a level perhaps beyond that of mortals, again, making me (at least) think it more likely to be true.

The Elves certainly were capable of making accurate perceptions in such matters. However, the same footnote quoted above remarks of the Elves' dismissal of the notion, that

.....some thought, nonetheless, that there had been a remote kinship, which accounted for the special enmity.

So, perhaps the Elves were not in total agreement anyway.

That footnote ends with a wry quote from ROTK:

At that old Ghân made a curious gurgling noise, and it seemed that he was laughing.

Was "the light of Aman" really comparable to the sound a flushing toilet?

[Kuruharan]

This all means that the elves were willing to accept the idea that orcs were taken from their own stock because the laughter of elves and orcs were somehow similar..?

I think the development of orcs went through several stages. The first was corrupted animals and some of these bodies were inhabited by fallen ainur. Then elvish strains were added in followed by mannish they came along.

The renegade quote is very interesting as perhaps the Drûgs retained a clearer cultural memory of what happened to some of their members in their earliest days? Being the crafty woodsmen that they were perhaps they followed as some of their kinsmen were dragged off and observed what happened to them afterwards.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Was "the light of Aman" really comparable to the sound a flushing toilet?

And here I had always thought of it as being more like the flowing of a babbling brook...

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Galin

(...) Or did Orcs dwindle maybe, and at first 'regular' orcs from the First Age were taller?

I stumbled across an interesting note from the 1930s -- the early-ish decade being notable here because we are still well enough away from a finished, published The Lord of the Rings (1954, 1955), in which a huge orc-chieftain (who arguably must be an uruk given a previous statement) is almost man-high -- as the list notes...

'... sometimes translated 'goblins' but they were of nearly human stature.' JRRT, 1930s wordlist, The Lost Road And Other Writings

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galin

I stumbled across an interesting note from the 1930s -- the early-ish decade being notable here because we are still well enough away from a finished, published The Lord of the Rings (1954, 1955), in which a huge orc-chieftain (who arguably must be an uruk given a previous statement) is almost man-high -- as the list notes...

'... sometimes translated 'goblins' but they were of nearly human stature.' JRRT, 1930s wordlist, The Lost Road And Other Writings

In a letter from 1954, Tolkien described them as "squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes".
Letters #210

"Squat" is a relative term, of course. I note how close that description is to this one of the drûgs:

They were stumpy (some four foot high) but very broad....their wide faces had deep-set eyes with heavy brows, and flat noses, and grew no hair below their eyebrows....Their features were usually impassive, the most mobile being their wide mouths.....

UT The Drúedain

There are differences in the descriptions, sure. There are also a lot of similarities.

One thing interesting about the Orcs is the apparent lack of facial hair. With Men and Dwarves it was very common, and even Círdan of the Teleri had a beard when seen by members of the Fellowship at the Havens.

Drûgs (and Hobbits), however, shared the trait of being smooth-faced with Orcs. Coincidence?

[Galin]

Right, I think Tolkien had a little problem here (no pun intended): if, as in the 1950s, a huge Uruk is still only 'almost' man-high, and there are plenty of squat, or Hobbit-sized orcs around, then what about the First Age, thousands of years before the coming of the Uruks? Thus the 1930s quote would seem to indicate that (externally) Tolkien imagined Orcs, in general, as indeed not small, but of nearly human stature -- I mean there could have been some smaller ones, but generally orcs seem as tall as the uruks would become.

Granted, this is an external comparison, but I think Tolkien would need to allow for both things: that is, large enough orcs in the First and Second Ages (Maiar-orcs do not seem to be numerous enough), as enemies of the Noldor and Numenoreans -- considering that the larger orcs of the Third Age appear to be the Uruks -- themselves entering the scene relatively late in the history of Middle-earth.


Maiar-orcs could provide the answer in my opinion, as I think they could have provided an answer to the 'problem' of chronology with respect to Treebeard's statement, if Tolkien wanted Men to be the main stock: that is, if orcs first appeared in the Great Darkness as Treebeard notes -- the Great Darkness referring to a period of Melkor's influence before (it would appear) large numbers of Elves passed over Sea -- then Treebeard could be remembering Maiar-orcs, larger and more powerful orcs than those 'regular' orcs that would come later; but anyway 'orcs' in general to him.

Yet again I would agree: why do corrupted Men necessarily need to be so much smaller than Men? Imagining they were almost man-high, a gradual Third Age dwindling of Orcs seems a better idea to me, perhaps in part due to the great victories of the Last Alliance -- with their height coming back later with the Uruks of Mordor (though a number of Hobgoblin, or larger types, as exceptions up North would not be too problematic, I think).

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Galin

Yet again I would agree: why do corrupted Men necessarily need to be so much smaller than Men?

Possibly its the relationship of height to stature. It is marked that Numenorians were taller than other Men. However, as years pased and their stature in ME dwindled, they became shorter. Orcs fell much lower.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

One thing interesting about the Orcs is the apparent lack of facial hair. With Men and Dwarves it was very common, and even Círdan of the Teleri had a beard when seen by members of the Fellowship at the Havens.

Drûgs (and Hobbits), however, shared the trait of being smooth-faced with Orcs. Coincidence?

Tecnically that is only partially true. A footnote in the Drunedain essay notes a few Drugs were able to grow a tiny beard (it's described as being like a small peice of dried moss) and that this is considered a major status symbol amoungs them. And other notes point out that Stoor's (the most mannish of hobbits) can sometimes grow facial hair (though Ive often thoght that the Stoors, being so mannish to begin with, may have gotten some actual mannish blood (or more accuratley, normal mannish blood, since hobbits themselves are a type of man) in them over time, and the beards may come from there.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Tecnically that is only partially true. A footnote in the Drunedain essay notes a few Drugs were able to grow a tiny beard (it's described as being like a small peice of dried moss) and that this is considered a major status symbol amoungs them. And other notes point out that Stoor's (the most mannish of hobbits) can sometimes grow facial hair (though Ive often thoght that the Stoors, being so mannish to begin with, may have gotten some actual mannish blood (or more accuratley, normal mannish blood, since hobbits themselves are a type of man) in them over time, and the beards may come from there.

I was aware that there could have been exceptions, but as "offshoots" of Men, in general neither drûgs nor Hobbits were known for growing facial hair.

By the same token, the fact that we aren't told of any Orcs having beards is no proof that there were none. However, I am disinclined to believe that the shared smooth-faced characteristics of the three groups was necessarily meaningless.

[Eruhen]

To my (admittedly non-expert) view, the multiple-origins theory answers more questions than it raises. By having the First and Second Age orcs be based primarily off of Maiar and Eldar stock, it provides formidable enemies for the Eldar and Atani to battle without having the ridiculous scene of an Elf or a Man fighting an Orc half his size or less. Then, over the course of the Second and Third Ages, Sauron could breed Men (specifically Easterlings and Southrons) into the Orcs as a way of rebuilding the armies the War of Wrath decimated. Also, the Orcs that sheltered from the Ruin of Beleriand in the Misty Mountains would naturally decline in size to fit their new lodgings in the 7000 years between the Ruin and the War of the Ring.

I also like the idea of there being 'high' and 'low' bloodlines in the Orcish race, corresponding to more and less Elvish and Maiar blood.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I was aware that there could have been exceptions, but as "offshoots" of Men, in general neither drûgs nor Hobbits were known for growing facial hair.

By the same token, the fact that we aren't told of any Orcs having beards is no proof that there were none. However, I am disinclined to believe that the shared smooth-faced characteristics of the three groups was necessarily meaningless.

Beardedness seems to vary amoungs the mannish groups. The Numenorians (and by extension, Gondorians and Arnorians) are notably beardless, though whethere they actually don't usually grow beards or if it's just that beards have never been fashionable is a bit unclear to me (the Numernorians do have some elvish blood in them (at least the royal line does) so they may have the elvish beard expression (i.e not growing facial hair till they are quite elderly, possibly not until and age far in excess of what they live to). The fuzzyness of the other free mannish races is not much mentioned, though the fact that note is made of the fact that the Near Haradrim are bearded by those that fight them seems to indicate that beards may not be a common sight in the free lands (though you have to weigh this agaisnt the fact that most of the people who are fighting the Haradrim are Gondorian, who as previously noted, don't usually wear beards) The The Ishtari are of course bearded, but since common men tend to think of them (at least to think of Gandalf, and presumably Saruman) as possibly being part elf or dwarf anyway their beardeness may or may not have been a remarkable trait.

[Galadriel]

I do not know if this has already been mentioned, but in TTT Aragorn refers to the Men from Isengard as 'half-Orcs'. Not sure if that helps, but I thought I'd just post it.

[Inziladun]

More food for thought on this topic.

I'm leaning toward the idea that "specialist" Orc-breeds might have been partly derived from the blood of Men, but I'm nearly positive Elves were the foundation of the "basic" Orc.

In addition to things already said above in this thread and others, I note that Elves were from their beginning immune from disease.

Immortal were the Elves, and their wisdom waxed from age to age, and no sickness nor pestilence brought death to them.

Silm Of Men

I think it's reasonable that Morgoth would have known that about the Elves. After all, he was a Vala.

Now, deliberate disease infection was used by Morgoth in the First Age, I believe, as a "terror weapon" against the Men of northern Beleriand. One of the casualties was Túrin's sister, Urwen, called Lalaith.

....when [Lalaith] was three years old there came a pestilence to Hithlum, borne on an evil wind out of Angband, and she died.

Silm Of Túrin Tarambar

The large uruks with possible Mannish blood don't seem to have been around in the First Age, so I'm thinking that Morgoth's Orcs were from whatever the original stock had been. If that stock was indeed Elves, they should have been immune from disease, and Morgoth would have run no risk of infecting his own troops and possibly decimating his own forces by the plague. Especially when it doesn't seem to have really been necessary in a strategic sense.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The large uruks with possible Mannish blood don't seem to have been around in the First Age, so I'm thinking that Morgoth's Orcs were from whatever the original stock had been. If that stock was indeed Elves, they should have been immune from disease, and Morgoth would have run no risk of infecting his own troops and possibly decimating his own forces by the plague. Especially when it doesn't seem to have really been necessary in a strategic sense.

I like the internal approach here, but there's a bit of guesswork with respect to the effects of (heritable) corruption. I note this because, as you likely know already, even Tolkien seems to question whether Orcs should be 'immortal' if the stock were Elves -- although in the text concerned he then mused that orcs were beasts and short-lived, and that even if there was an Elvish strain this did not make a heritable state for long-lived orcs, as mixing would result in sterility in any event.


As for large Uruks in the First and Second Ages, if we look at two late statements concerning how tall the Eldar and the Numenoreans were, we are dealing with very tall warriors, at 6.5 to 7 feet, or taller for some. Were these warriors fighting 3 to 5 foot tall orcs?

As I noted above, before The Lord of the Rings was written, and thus within the context of the Silmarillion as it stood at the time, Tolkien appears to have desired Orcs to have been of nearly human stature -- looking at The Lord of the Rings, I would say this compares to the large Uruks, since the 'huge' Orc-chieftain in Moria, who must have been an Uruk, was still almost 'man-high', and the half-orcs, or at least some, were 'man-high'. In other words even this huge Uruk was yet of nearly human stature.

Again, this is characterizing an older citation as if (!) it was written within the same conception as much later descriptions, which I like to be wary about, but if we accept Orcs of nearly human stature in the First Age, which makes sense to me in any event (we might mix in some large Maiar-orcs), one would arguably assume that orcs diminished in size at some point after the fall of Morgoth. But still we have the Second Age: the Exiled Noldor would be tall, and do we imagine a seven foot (or more, according to one source) Elendil fighting orcs as small as 3.5 feet? or if a large one, say 5 feet? Possibe. Although maybe, if people agree that this seems a bit problematic anyway, the solution could be that the Last Alliance was the real turning point here.

Maybe the nearly man-high great orcs, along with many smaller ones, were almost wiped out at this time, and for many years in the Third Age, some orcs generally dwindled in size, or at least, did not breed in such a way as to produce many large fellows -- thus making the Uruks, especially the almost man-high ones of the Third Age, notable in size by comparison.

Not that JRRT wrote that! I think the Maiar-orcs of the First Age could be larger, stronger, 'immortal' and maybe even immune to disease, but JRRT doesn't seem to have imagined there were that many of these.

[alatar]

When you read the Sil, with its pages of pages of kinslayings between the elves, culminating with the assault by the evil sons of Feanor on the Havens of Sirion, it's no great leap to think that orcs were once elves.

[Galin]

And looking at the history of Men...

[alatar]

What caught my eye is the statement about the elves not forgetting that Men fought on the side of Melkor during the War of Wrath. Okay, so the elves didn't, but they had kin blood on their hands, and the sons of Feanor - Maedhros and Maglor - slew Eönwë's guards when they retook the Silmarils.

What a gem of a race...

[Galin]

Men never slew Men?


There are plenty of things that can catch your eye in the history of Men, so in my opinion the argument that you are (seemingly) trying to imply here really doesn't go any further than focusing on one side of the coin. When Tolkien considered that Men were the stock for orcs...

'This view of the origin of the Orcs thus meets with difficulties of chronology. But though Men may take comfort in this, the theory remains nonetheless the most probable. It accords with all that is known of Melkor, and of the nature and behaviour of Orcs - and of Men. Melkor was impotent to produce any living thing, but skilled in the corruption of things that did not proceed from himself, if he could dominate them.'

JRRT, Myths Transformed, Morgoth's Ring

[Inziladun]

It's notable though, that much is made of the fact that many Men followed Morgoth anyway. The Edain were rather the exceptions in aiding the Eldar.

Since so many Men were already under Morgoth's sway, why bother making them into Orcs? They weren't stronger, or better fighters than Men, I don't think. Especially when it's also said (though I can't for the moment recall the specific quote) that Morgoth knew the Eldar to have the greater innate power.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Galin

Men never slew Men?

Don't think that there was a time when they didn't.

There are plenty of things that can catch your eye in the history of Men, so in my opinion the argument that you are (seemingly) trying to imply here really doesn't go any further than focusing on one side of the coin. When Tolkien considered that Men were the stock for orcs...

Note that I wasn't saying anything about Men, except for the statement that the elves noted that Men fought for Melkor. My point is that, for some elves, the slide from elf to orc wasn't very far, and that elves shouldn't be throwing stones.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Since so many Men were already under Morgoth's sway, why bother making them into Orcs?

I would say, at least in part, for the same reason some Maiar took 'orkish' shapes, to mock the Children of God. The question of orc-origins was still open to Tolkien because all he had actually published was that Orcs were made in mockery of Elves -- but not (necessarily) made from Elves.

Although perhaps more importantly, Treebeard had implied an actual timeline as well, and although Tolkien could get away with saying Treebeard has a great memory even if he couldn't necessarily know the actual origin of orcs (as a character in the story) -- his great memory yet implies that Tolkien 'should' take Treebeard's guidelines, as vague as they might be, into consideration.


Alatar, I realize you weren't saying anything about Men... which was rather my point actually.

[leapofberen]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I'm leaning toward the idea that "specialist" Orc-breeds might have been partly derived from the blood of Men, but I'm nearly positive Elves were the foundation of the "basic" Orc.

I think this hits the nail on the head...it is likely that interbreeding continued in the depths of Angband as long as Melkor continued in power. I don't have the Sil immediately available, but when Beren and Luthien stood before Morgoth, it is said (paraphrase here) that the darkest of thoughts yet entered Morgoth's mind, presumably concerning Luthien and what he could do with the daughter of a Maia and an Elf. Whether that means offspring or interbreeding, I can only imagine.

Initially though, it seems to me that the things that Melkor did were largely out of jealousy, hurt, pain, bitterness, etc, which implies that he originally tortured and interbred Elves not simply to raise up a corrupt army...but at the root, to cause pain to Eru, the rest of the Vala, etc.

As far as hobbits and Men being involved, I suppose it is possible. It occurs to me the Uruk were such. It seems that Morgoth was initially (mostly) hateful of the Elves because of the attention that was paid to them by the Vala (I might be a little off on that one, but that seems right at the moment). It seems Men were something of a sidenote, much as the Hobbits were in the Third Age. And when Men initially "awoke" the Dark Lord came to them to deceive them but I remember reading that he had to leave and left the business of deceiving Men to a "lesser being," and eventually Men came West at the rumour of a great Light which lived in the farthest West, which was a big mistake for Morgoth, yet it also implies he took Men for granted.

That Men or Hobbits were involved seems not only very possible, but not as grievous/important if the Elves were the ones who were first tortured and interbred; not because of who they were necessarily, but because of REASON why Melkor did it in the first place...in a fit of rage, vengeance, etc, which the Sil says "was most hurtful to Eru."

As far as Men go, didn't he fear Men the most? Yet it seems to me he also took them for granted. And is the fear simply not a foreshadowing of the fact that it would eventually be through the weakness of mortals (Men, Hobbits) that evil would be defeated and not through the might and beauty of the Firstborn? Yet the Firstborn were the ones who saw the Light of the West, were more like the Vala in life and appearance then Men, and were the favored of the Vala as well, so I seem to think it is more reasonable that Morgoth would want to corrupt them rather then Men as Morgoth was ever moved by the basest of motives (fear, hatred, insecurity, etc.)