I am the Mouth of Sauron.

[ninja91]

I want to try to clear something up about the capabilities of the Mouth of Sauron.

We know he is very powerful, and he may have been also very powerful in magic. But he was a higher rank than the Witch King, who was supposedly a level above Gandalf. But he seemed to cower before Gandalf at the Black Gate.

Is it known how powerful (in sorcery) the Mouth of Sauron really was?

[Thinlómien]

Personally I think his powers were (far) lesser than Gandalf's or the Witch-Kings. I think his position was more based on his skills of speech and on his intelligence than on his skills in sorcery.

But he was a higher rank than the Witch King . . .

Care to elaborate; what do you base your assumption on? Being the main ambassador or main represantive of Sauron is a very different job from being the Captain of the Army or a sort of steward to Sauron (in Angmar) - they're not very easily compared and they are of pretty equal importance. But if I had to say which one was of "higher rank" I'd undoubtedly go for the Witch-King. (That of course, is my personal opinion. After all, it all comes down to "how do you define 'higher rank'?" ... )

[Selmo]

I don't see The Mouth of Sauron as being "powerful" in the sense that Gandalf was powerful. He was a man, and , though twisted, he remained a man.

His power lies in his role as Sauron's messenger. He is obeyed because the orders he relays are Sauron's, not his own. I see him as a diplomat, negotiating with the nations to the East (was he the one Sauron sent to Erebor and Dale?).

From his reactions to Gandalf, I think that Gandalf's guess that The Mouth was expecting to become Sauron's regent in Gondor and Rohan was correct, so he must also have been an able administrator. Perhaps he was Sauron's Quartermaster-General, organising the housing, feeding and arming of the armies of Mordor, a task unsuited to orcs or Nazgul, orcs because of their limited inteligence and ill-discipline and the Nazgul being too valuable as weapons of war.
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[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I agree with Selmo - and with your point, Thinlómien, that we could hardly define ranks of some sort in this way. How would we compare, let's say, a minister of interior and an army general? That's similar, I think. About the titles, we also know that he was the (help me find the word - I don't know how it is in original) Lieutenant (??? insert correct word, please) of Barad-dur.

In what I don't agree with you, Selmo, is that MoS was not "powerful" in the "supernatural" sense. It is written that he learned great sorcery, which would probably mean the most powerful sorcerer besides Witch-King (or at least most powerful from the Men in this case). Not that he could stand up against Gandalf (certainly not after his rebirth), but then again, who knows? I can as well imagine a scene of Gandalf falling into the Pit of Khazad-dum after a battle with the Mouth instead of the Balrog. Well, that's maybe too much. But it would be nice, don't you think

And one last think, I like the idea of him being the one sent to Erebor (and Dale), I find it quite possible and I also thought about this possibility before. Although it is not for certain and I'm suspicious that all of Sauron's messengers look the same (some black guy on a horse), so that might have been anyone

[ninja91]

Well, I think that he may have a higher rank than the Witch King because he is the lieutenant of Barad-Dur itself. Is that not a rank higher than general of the Morgul-host? Even that is one of the foremost positions in the service of Sauron, although I think that Sauron's personal mouth is somewhat of a higher rank, although that does not mean that it's owner is more powerful than any other.

The following, courtesy of tuckborough.net, helps to explain why the Mouth might be indeed very powerful in the hand of sorcery.

"The Mouth of Sauron was of the race of Black Numenoreans - Men who were corrupted by Sauron in the Second Age. It is said that the Mouth of Sauron "entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again" (RotK, p. 164), but there is some question as to what this means.

Some say this refers to Sauron's return to Barad-dur in 3320 of the Second Age after the fall of Numenor. This would mean that the Mouth of Sauron was over 3,000 years old at the time of the War of the Ring, and that he had somehow prolonged his life by unnatural means."

"Unnatural means" I think refers to sorcery, of course, possibly as a gift from Sauron himself.

tuckborough.net's explanation goes further.

"The Mouth of Sauron was cruel and cunning. He learned sorcery from Sauron and he became familiar with the Dark Lord's mind. He rose through the ranks and became one of Sauron's most trusted servants. If Sauron had won the War of the Ring, the Mouth of Sauron would have been given Isengard and from there he would have subjugated Gondor and Rohan as part of Sauron's domain."

This definitely shows how high and powerful the Mouth really was.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Yeah, I think that's it. Except...

Originally Posted by ninja91

Well, I think that he may have a higher rank than the Witch King because he is the lieutenant of Barad-Dur itself. Is that not a rank higher than general of the Morgul-host?

...I still think that this is something else. WK was much as the general of the Morgul-host, but he was also, how to call it, "prefect of Morgul". MoS was something like mayor of the capitol city, but nowhere it's written that he was higher rank than the Lord of Nazgul. After all, Denethor refers to the Witch-King as "the main captain of the host of Barad-dur". It may be metaphoric or his low knowledge (which I doubt, since he was referring to what he knew possibly verified by what he saw in Palantír), but this would seem that if there were any "ranks", WK is at the top. Which would mean, the Mouth is lower.
...Okay, I confess, I am racist. I think MoS was human so that he could not reach such a high rank as any Ringwraith.
But actually, I think MoS was more active in the "civil" section and WK had military rank, thus, you cannot compare them. So WK was the highest in the army ranks and MoS was... something else.

[The Might]

I doubt it, and I am sure it refers to the rebuiliding of Barad-dur, completed in 2951, which would make him at least about 80 years old, a normal age for someone of Numenorean descent.
Anyway, any idea of him being more powerful then the Wk makes absolutely no sense, since Tolkien clearly states that the 9 were his strongest servants, and that the WK was the strongest of the 9.
I do not think that because he was going to receive great authority after the War was over it meant that he was the strongest. He was only the best qualified servant of Sauron for the job. He was lieutenant of Barad-dur at the time, meaning that he had been dealing with the tower's internal business for quite some time, whereas the Nazgul were specialised in other things such as killing annoying Rangers and bringing back important rings...
Sauron could have used the Nazgul much better for other purposes, and left the administrative and political duties to Mouth of Sauron. He was clearly a diplomat, and he was the ambassador of Mordor at the Black Gate. Who could be more qualified to take control of newly conquered land? Surely not a Nazgul.

[Lalwendë]

Rather than being anything to do with rank, I think the Mouth of Sauron was listened to by the hosts of the West because it was a matter of honour to treat a messenger with respect, no matter who he was. Tolkien places Aragorn, Gandalf etc in the position of honour by showing that these people at least can show respect to a messenger. I wonder if Sauron would have done the same? I think not. And that's one aspect of the films which annoyed me as film Aragorn displays mere anger by chopping off his head, whereas he ought to have been shown simply letting the messenger go or else just detaining him.

It makes sense to me that Sauron would have staff (servants? minions?) from other races, as this would be of considerable help in bringing peoples of different races around to his way of thinking; those he hoped to subdue might be more readily won round if 'one of their own' was dealing with them, gaining their sympathies etc.

[The Might]

Hmm, here I must disagree...
I doubt he would have been very much perceived as "one of their own", but probably more like a traitor. Only people like the Dunlendings would welcome him as the new regent of that area.
I believe he would have chosen an Orc, had he proven to be better at this then MoS. However his longer lifetime, adding to the advantages he had due to his descent make him definitely better.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by The Might

Hmm, here I must disagree...
I doubt he would have been very much perceived as "one of their own", but probably more like a traitor. Only people like the Dunlendings would welcome him as the new regent of that area.

I don't think Lal referred here to his assignment as "Regent of the West", but to the diplomatic mission between the nations. And from my thinking, for this he was certainly a good choice. Especially because of that most of these nations were probably Easterlings and Southrons, which I think fit into that "Dunlending" cathegory.
And with the Mouth being the "Lieutenant of Isengard" - I think it would be fine as well for him. The keepers of Isengard were always performing (or suspected of performing) sorcery, so he would fit nicely into the line. And I can imagine him as typical Roman-province prefect, of course serving to Sauron he would be very cruel and also really wicked, but just in person much like for example Pontius Pilatus (who, according to Flavius, has executed some pilgrims just preventively "what if they were rebels"). There would be rebellions, of course, but when raised, quickly bloodily prevented. The people would not like him as their lord, of course; but it would be a lot easier for the Dunlendings or some collaborative Rohirrim to associate with someone of their own kind than with an Orc, for example.

[Macalaure]

I think there's an important difference between the Mouth of Sauron and a Ringwraith. The Mouth of Sauron was cunning by himself and later learned great sorcery and knew much of the mind of Sauron. So, though he learned from Sauron, he built up his power on his own. He still was a regular human with a supposedly independant will.
The Nazgûl on the other hand received their power from Sauron without any effort of their own. Sure they were chosen by Sauron based upon their ranks and powers and knowledges when they still were common men, but everything beyond that came directly from Sauron via the nine Rings or via the 'added demonic force' of the Witch-King during the War of the Rings. Apart from their original abilities, all of their powers are put into them by their Master and no other powers they possessed.
I think the Mouth of Sauron was more than a keeper of the household and a messenger. Why should Sauron teach him sorcery and even of his own thoughts in that case? It would be unnecessary. Being a human, and a cunning one, his counsel must have had some value to the Dark Lord. The Ringwraiths' wills are enslaved and their counsel therefore useless.

Both the Mouth of Sauron and the Witch-King have their areas of competence and their individual values to Sauron. It's probably impossible to tell which of the two is actually higher in rank or 'overall' power. I can't really imagine the WK taking orders from the MoS (unless they came from Sauron) or the other way around.

[Gothmog]

Interesting discussion... Though I would like to make one thing clear. We have to separate the two concepts of being "most powerful" and "highest in rank". One thing is clearly a reflection of a creatures characteristic and strength, whether it's physical or mental strenght, power of sorcery or something else. Rank doesn't necessary reflect the owner's power. The MoS could, theoreticaly (sp?) speaking, be a personal favourite of Sauron and therefore have had an easy climb up the ladder in the Barad-Dur ranks.

Now when I've covered that, I must add that I do not think these two are comparable. One has higher authority when it comes to war, leading troops, carry out the most important operations and such. The other has higher authority in his speciality; politics, administration and diplomatic missions. After all, people tend to be a bit suspicious to diplomats that comes riding on a giant monster, sends out a screams that freezes the blood in your veins and then torture you for a couple of hours...

For the most powerful, I'd go for the Witch King. For the one with higher rank in Barad-Dur, I'd say the Mouth of Sauron. For the one with higher rank in the military section of Mordor, I'd once again say WK, but I don't know who should be considered as the one with the highest rank overall.

[Farael]

I am probably repeating some things that have been said before, but I wanted to express my own point of view on who was of a "higher" rank.

To me, comparing the WK to MoS is like comparing Apples and Steak. What, you thought I was going to say Apples and Oranges, eh?

*ahem* Anyway, they seem to have two rather different roles in the service of Mordor. MoS is a diplomat. I'm sure that he could be a rather big pain for anyone who wanted to fight him, but his main set of skills seemed to be those of negotiating with (or coaxing) others. Perhaps his "great sorcery" could be much of the same as Saruman's... a voice that can enchant you and sway you even if the arguments it proposes are flawed, or not in your best interest. And why not? We have (as far as I recall) examples of three sorcerers in Lord of the Rings.

Gandalf did some (minor IMO) conjuring, creating a big fire when the wolves attack the Fellowship after their failed attempt of crossing Cahadras, and also trying to hold the door closed against the orcs (and then the Balrog) in Moria. But when it comes time to fighting, what he mostly does is wield his sword... and give good advice.

Saruman, instead, only used his voice. Even if his power was partly spent, I am sure (and Gandalf hints at it in the books, sadly I'm not using my computer so I can't look up the quote) that he could have done a few "nastier" things, but he chose to try and sweet-talk them. Perhaps because that was his most "powerful" magic? After all, in Tolkien's world it seems that you can only throw so many fire-balls, or hold a door shut for only so long. It takes a toll on you, it's not the computer game-style wizzard that throws fireballs left and right.

So perhaps MoS' great powers were not in humongus fireballs, turning his foes into stone or wielding a sword of fire and ice. Perhaps his great powers were those of corrupting the unsuspecting mind, weakening the will of others and turning the hearts of otherwise noble people. That kind of 'magic' is the one (I think) we see the most in LoTR. Even when Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli are chasing after the orcs that have Merry and Pippin captive, they say that there is an "evil will slowing them down and speeding their enemies". Saruman's Magic? That's what they seem to think it is, as they say this "will" comes from Isengard.

On the other hand, the WK had a very different set of skills. He could still command and dominate other people's wills but in a very different way. WK, as all the other Nazghul, but him even more so, was scary. Really scary. He could scare you into submission, but since the fear he caused did not seem to be something he did on purpose, but rather an innate skill of the Nazghul, I don't think he'd be much of a diplomat. Sure, he'd get short-term results (ie. Whoever talks to him will probably be scared into following his will) but he will not affect a change in this indvidual's mind as MoS perhaps could. Whoever was coaxed by the WK would think "I better do it, else I'm dead" rather than "I want to do this, I want to serve my Master Sauron".

But then, WK's skills were better suited to the battle field. It doesnt really matter if an orc runs himself against a wall of shields held by many strong and able fighters because he "wants" to or because he knows that whatever happens to him, not following the order will have even worse consequences. The only thing that matters is that it gets done.

That's IMO why the WK and MoS are so different that can't be compared all that much. We have to work hard to remember (in spite of the best efforts of gaming companies against it) that Tolkien's world was very much fluid, there were no set "levels" of skill that the characters had, and no-one was so far above the rest that he was virtually invincible. After all, Saruman (whom Gandalf still considered a possible great ally, even after his fall) was killed by the lowly Wormtounge, Sauron, a demi-god was defeated by Elendil and Gil-Galad, even Melkor was hurt rather badly by (was it Fingolfin?).

The question "who was stronger?" in Tolkien's work, to me, is a lot of guesswork as there are a bunch of variables that must be taken into account. It would be like asking "who is more powerful, Farael or Dancing Spawn of Ungoliant?" Well, are they armed? if so, are they good at using their weapons? if not, who is physically stronger? who is in better shape? is either of the two likely to hold back for some reason? will they be alone or with an army of minions that will do the fighting? etc etc.

[The 1,000 Reader]

I see the Mouth of Sauron as I see Sauron in the First Age.

Fancy rank, not much else.

[Selmo]

It has been said that The Mouth of Sauron learned great sorcery and knew much of the mind of Sauron.
He may not have possesed the ability to use sorcery but, by learning about sorcery, he was able to understand what was going on in Sauron's mind and make himself very useful to his master.

Farael speculates that The Mouth's power lies in his voice, enabling him to change the way people think.
He doesn't need supernatural powers to do that. Many people in our own world have displayed amazing powers of persuation over whole nations without resorting to sorcery.
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[The Might]

Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader

I see the Mouth of Sauron as I see Sauron in the First Age.

Fancy rank, not much else.

I don't agree.
Sauron was indeed only mentioned a few times in the Silmarillion, but this does not mean that he did not play quite an important part. The same kind of logic is used by many to show that Glaurung is stronger then Ancalagon for example, but just because a character is mentioned more or less in a story doesn't mean that he didn't play a very important role in the events that took place.
He is only mentioned as the one that controlled Tol Sirion and in context with the events that led to the Quenta Silmarillion. Again, in the Quenta Silmarillion during his duel with Huan, and lastly as he repents after the War of Wrath.
Still, it is stated that he was very important for Morgoth, and many of his actions arenot mentioned in the text. It is however clear that he had great power to be of the same rank with Gothmog, and also from his duel with Huan it is clear he was not weak either.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Yeah that's it, Sauron just was not so important for the stories presented in Sil, as well as the Mouth was not so important for the story. In this way, Tom, Bert and William were more important than Mouth of Sauron in the story. But you can't forget that there are another thousands of people in the Middle-Earth whose actions had strong impact even in the large view, but they are scarcely mentioned. And there were thousands of people who lived their lives and did many things. For example, if we had a story of the fall of Ost-in-Edhil, I can bet that we'll all know about the famous Elven Smith, who was in very high rank, gave good advices to Celebrimbor, and he even was at first against the agreement with Sauron. He was a good and funny fellow, and in the end, he was slain by Sauron himself on the stairs to the House of Mírdain when covering Celebrimbor's escape, which even though was in vain eventually in the end. And we will all know his name and remember him as one of the great heroes in the "hall of fame". Now, since no one wrote the story, we have no knowing of such a person.
Note: I hope you understand that this person never truly existed. There is no mention of such a person in all Tolkien's works. I totally made it up just for purposes of this post and any resemblance to actual persons in Tolkien's work, living or dead, is purely coincidential