Parallels between Gandalf and Glorfindel - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

CSteefel · 10-12-2006, 03:24 PM

I was struck recently by the parallels between some of the Gandalf story and that of Glorindel. Both were killed while fighting with a Balrog (who was killed as well) while helping a group of weaker people to escape, Gandalf in Moria and Glorfindel from Gondolin. Both were sent back to contest the power of Sauron, Glorfindel supposedly in the 2nd Age, Gandalf in the 3rd age. Both were able to drive off the Witch King, Glorfindel at the Battle of Fornost and at the Last Bridge, Gandalf at Weathertop and then again on the Pelennor Fields.

ninja91 · 10-20-2006, 10:23 AM

Haha! And their names both start with a "G"!
Just had to add some comic relief...sorry...

mormegil · 10-20-2006, 11:52 AM

Do you see the similarities as only relating to those of Gandalf and Glorfindel or more generally as a character type? What I mean is that Tolkien seems to write about heroes, but they are heroes that aren't super powerful. Gandalf and Glorfindel are great in their own right and proved themselves well on the battlefield and in council but they had their weaknesses and could be defeated. Other books I've read have heroes that are all but undefeatable. Tolkien however has some like Turin, Samwise, Frodo, Beleg, Feanor et al that are great but not over the top. That is something I enjoy about Tolkien, his heroes are more believable.

Raynor · 10-20-2006, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mormegil

That is something I enjoy about Tolkien, his heroes are more believable.

Well, you are in for a surprise:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Appendix: The converse of Manwe and Eru, Atrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, HoME X

The resurrection of the body (at least as far as Elves were concerned) was in a sense incorporeal. But while it could pass physical barriers at will, it could at will oppose a barrier to matter. If you touched a resurrected body you felt it. Or if it willed it could simply elude you - disappear. Its position in space was at will

The position of the body of the resurrected elves was at their will - how about that? Also note that Chris says in the text that this appears to be part of Tolkien's last and stable view on Glorfindel.

CSteefel · 10-21-2006, 03:03 PM

I agree, that is one of the strengths of Tolkien that he does not make his heroes invincible. One loses all dramatic tension in the story if this is the case...

In the case of Glorfindel and Gandalf, I was struck by how the story line (more than the character) reappeared, once with an Elven Lord, and then again with one of the Istari. Glorfindel is never really fleshed out as a character, but in battle at least he seems to have similar powers to Gandalf and plays a similar role in their battles with a Balrog and their showdown with the Witch King, as I mentioned above.

I guess the difference, besides the fact that Glorfindel is not fleshed out as a character, is that Gandalf also takes on the role of chief strategist in the war against Sauron, while Glorfindel is limited to something more like a warrior.

Istari · 12-05-2006, 12:29 PM

Hey, what about Frodo and Faramir? Both have huge burdens to carry-Frodo carries the ring while Faramir carries Boromir's legacy. Frodo lies near to death at Shelob's lair and at Mt Doom and Faramir almosts dies from the poisoned arrow. Also, to point out that both have big expectatoins of them and they overcome the odds. I say that Tolkien likes to foil characters to each other.

CSteefel · 12-05-2006, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Istari

Hey, what about Frodo and Faramir? Both have huge burdens to carry-Frodo carries the ring while Faramir carries Boromir's legacy. Frodo lies near to death at Shelob's lair and at Mt Doom and Faramir almosts dies from the poisoned arrow. Also, to point out that both have big expectatoins of them and they overcome the odds. I say that Tolkien likes to foil characters to each other.

And then also to present the foil as a possibility that may or may not come true, e.g. Frodo and Gollum, Aragorn and Isildur (although this is downplayed in the book at least, where the comparison to Aragorn is more likely Elendil)...

Legate of Amon Lanc · 12-06-2006, 10:45 AM

I think now we left the original topic of Gandalf and Glorfindel for seeking more similarities between different characters, I'd like to mention this: of course there are parallels, and many are interesting, but I think we shouldn't get lost in it. You can make parallels of Gandalf the White and Saruman (as Gandalf himself mentions it, he's "a Saruman how he should be"), Sauron and Saruman, Galadriel and Saruman (! think about it. I'll leave it to yourselves

), Isildur and Galadriel (who takes the Ring and who rejects it?), Isildur and Boromir (!!! This just popped out in my head now - I think this one is VERY interesting), and then you can start with all these folks from the First Age, Fëanor and Celebrimbor (grandfather and grandson, both great Noldor smiths of course, both made something that bound the life of Middle-Earth for long time to come), Frodo and Beren (as mentioned by Elrond), Aragorn and Beren (the fate of one being united with elven maiden), Frodo and Maedhros (both have lost a part of their body - arms namely - to be saved from a burden, and both were saved by a friend, both were in the very heart of the enemy's land, then they both came to get their hands on the most valuable treasure in the world, in the end they couldn't resist to take it for themselves, and both were in pain when carrying it, and both ended with it near a pit of fire)... these are just few which came to my mind without more deeper thinking about it. I'm sure we could think of more, I think this might be for a very long time...

Thinlómien · 12-07-2006, 03:52 AM

Old threads for Legate and everyone else interested:
Parallels in LotR
Paired characters in LotR

Anyway, back to Gandalf and glorfindel. There are also other similarities. Didn't they both drive the Witch-King of Angmar away? (Glorfindel when Angmar attacks, Gandalf in Minas Tirith.) Don't they both have a steadfast, magnificient and fast, great steed? I never thought there was this much!

CSteefel · 12-07-2006, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Old threads for Legate and everyone else interested:
Parallels in LotR
Paired characters in LotR

Anyway, back to Gandalf and glorfindel. There are also other similarities. Didn't they both drive the Witch-King of Angmar away? (Glorfindel when Angmar attacks, Gandalf in Minas Tirith.) Don't they both have a steadfast, magnificient and fast, great steed? I never thought there was this much!

Yes, I mentioned the Witch King above. This is a good argument for why the movie screwed up the final encounter between the Witch King and Gandalf. In fact, it seems the chief weapon of the Nazgul (along with the Witch King) is the fear of the dead. As Tolkien stated with respect to the Nazgul in The Fellowship of the Rings, the Nazgul hold less fear for the Elves because they live in both the living and undying worlds simultaneously. So the chief weapon of the Witch King holds little threat to somebody like Glorfindel, and by the same token, Gandalf...It is really only mortals who are going to be greatly affected by the Nazgul...

10-12-2006, 03:24 PM	#1
CSteefel Wight Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 204	Parallels between Gandalf and Glorfindel I was struck recently by the parallels between some of the Gandalf story and that of Glorindel. Both were killed while fighting with a Balrog (who was killed as well) while helping a group of weaker people to escape, Gandalf in Moria and Glorfindel from Gondolin. Both were sent back to contest the power of Sauron, Glorfindel supposedly in the 2nd Age, Gandalf in the 3rd age. Both were able to drive off the Witch King, Glorfindel at the Battle of Fornost and at the Last Bridge, Gandalf at Weathertop and then again on the Pelennor Fields.

10-20-2006, 11:52 AM	#3
mormegil Maundering Mage Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 4,679	Do you see the similarities as only relating to those of Gandalf and Glorfindel or more generally as a character type? What I mean is that Tolkien seems to write about heroes, but they are heroes that aren't super powerful. Gandalf and Glorfindel are great in their own right and proved themselves well on the battlefield and in council but they had their weaknesses and could be defeated. Other books I've read have heroes that are all but undefeatable. Tolkien however has some like Turin, Samwise, Frodo, Beleg, Feanor et al that are great but not over the top. That is something I enjoy about Tolkien, his heroes are more believable. __________________ When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators. -- P. J. O'Rourke

12-05-2006, 12:29 PM	#6
Istari Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: The Road Posts: 15	Hey, what about Frodo and Faramir? Both have huge burdens to carry-Frodo carries the ring while Faramir carries Boromir's legacy. Frodo lies near to death at Shelob's lair and at Mt Doom and Faramir almosts dies from the poisoned arrow. Also, to point out that both have big expectatoins of them and they overcome the odds. I say that Tolkien likes to foil characters to each other. __________________ "What about second breakfast?" -Peregrin Took-

12-06-2006, 10:45 AM	#8
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,606	I think now we left the original topic of Gandalf and Glorfindel for seeking more similarities between different characters, I'd like to mention this: of course there are parallels, and many are interesting, but I think we shouldn't get lost in it. You can make parallels of Gandalf the White and Saruman (as Gandalf himself mentions it, he's "a Saruman how he should be"), Sauron and Saruman, Galadriel and Saruman (! think about it. I'll leave it to yourselves ), Isildur and Galadriel (who takes the Ring and who rejects it?), Isildur and Boromir (!!! This just popped out in my head now - I think this one is VERY interesting), and then you can start with all these folks from the First Age, Fëanor and Celebrimbor (grandfather and grandson, both great Noldor smiths of course, both made something that bound the life of Middle-Earth for long time to come), Frodo and Beren (as mentioned by Elrond), Aragorn and Beren (the fate of one being united with elven maiden), Frodo and Maedhros (both have lost a part of their body - arms namely - to be saved from a burden, and both were saved by a friend, both were in the very heart of the enemy's land, then they both came to get their hands on the most valuable treasure in the world, in the end they couldn't resist to take it for themselves, and both were in pain when carrying it, and both ended with it near a pit of fire)... these are just few which came to my mind without more deeper thinking about it. I'm sure we could think of more, I think this might be for a very long time... __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

12-07-2006, 03:52 AM	#9
Thinlómien Shady She-Penguin Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In a far land beyond the Sea Posts: 8,385	Old threads for Legate and everyone else interested: Parallels in LotR Paired characters in LotR Anyway, back to Gandalf and glorfindel. There are also other similarities. Didn't they both drive the Witch-King of Angmar away? (Glorfindel when Angmar attacks, Gandalf in Minas Tirith.) Don't they both have a steadfast, magnificient and fast, great steed? I never thought there was this much! __________________ Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris

10-21-2006, 03:03 PM	#5
CSteefel Wight Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 204	I agree, that is one of the strengths of Tolkien that he does not make his heroes invincible. One loses all dramatic tension in the story if this is the case... In the case of Glorfindel and Gandalf, I was struck by how the story line (more than the character) reappeared, once with an Elven Lord, and then again with one of the Istari. Glorfindel is never really fleshed out as a character, but in battle at least he seems to have similar powers to Gandalf and plays a similar role in their battles with a Balrog and their showdown with the Witch King, as I mentioned above. I guess the difference, besides the fact that Glorfindel is not fleshed out as a character, is that Gandalf also takes on the role of chief strategist in the war against Sauron, while Glorfindel is limited to something more like a warrior.