The Doom of Men and the Ringwraiths

[Lord of Angmar]

I'm not sure if there are any similar threads, as I couldn't find any after a search of the archives, but bare with me.

How was Sauron able to give the Nazgul life unending (if life you can call it)? How was he able to recall the Gift of Illuvatar to Men and prolong their stays as entities within Arda? Since obviously Sauron was not powerful enough to undo the Doom of Men, how were the Nine Rings able to keep them alive and under his servitude for so long? And where did the Ringwraiths go after their master was vanquished in the War of the Ring?

[Legolas]

The same way the One Ring kept Bilbo and Gollum alive so long - it was just 'magic.' You might recall that Sauron used the title 'The Necromancer' while residing in Dol Guldur.

[Lord of Angmar]

The whole idea of wraiths, I believe, is somewhat at odd with Tolkien's ideas about the fate of the Children of Illuvatar after death. I assumed when Sauron took the title of Necromancer it was because he was drawing on the spirit of Morgoth, who is "dead", in a sense, to the world.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

I think that once Sauron was sent to the Void, the fëar of the Ringwraiths was finally released from the 'magic' (as Legolas has called it [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) that bound them to Arda; and then their fëar went finally to the place they should have gone long time ago: beyond the Circles of the World [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Gorthol]

He wasn't able to give them unending life, he only trapped their souls and bound them to the rings. The nine rings were controlled by The One which was part of Sauron, so as long as he was "alive" he held sway over them. But without his will or command they wouldn't have been able to "function" in the world at all. Maybe Sauron could "delay" their aging and deaths by binding their spirits to the wraith world. When Sauron died, their spirits passed away to Mandos.

[Finwe]

Actually Gorthol, only the spirits of the Elves go to Mandos. All of the Ringwraiths had been Men, so they would have left the Circles of the World, and would have gone to whatever place Men go to when they die.

[Gorthol]

Finwe: They *do* go to Mandos, even if they only stay for a brief time in the Halls of Waiting (and their halls aren't the same as the ones for the elves). After a time of contemplating they pass away from the Circles of the World.

Beren is a good example, he "waits" for Tinúviel in the Halls of Mandos and is returned from them *before* he passes away.

[Finwe]

I'm sorry, I thought you meant they stayed forever in Mandos. I forgot about that little waiting period.

In the case of Beren, Luthien asked him to wait for her in the Halls of Mandos because she knew that she would soon follow him there.

[The Saucepan Man]

Maybe Sauron could "delay" their aging and deaths by binding their spirits to the wraith world.

There was no question of them "aging" in the normal sense, since their physical bodies had long since passed away. In that sense, they were already dead (or perhaps undead is a better term). It was only their spirits that remained. Being creatures of the spirit world, they were invisible when not cloaked in their black robes (although they still gave of an aura of fear when invisible, moreso in fact than when robed).

But it is correct that Sauron was not able to give them immortality. He was able to bind their spirits to the Rings that they wore so that their spirits remained in Arda, but only until the Ruling Ring was destroyed and the power of the Nine Rings was broken.

[Westerly Wizard]

Their bodies had "not long since passed away" since the bodies still exist. The body simply became wraithed, and permanently dwelt in the wraith world after their enslavement.

It is indeed supposed that through certain use of power, the spirit of a man could be bound within his body and enslaved within the world, so that it cannot leave, even though it should (and this makes life for the Nazgul quite painful).

[Gorthol]

Finwe: Yes, she did. But it is said on several places in the Silmarillion that the Spirits of Men come to the Halls of Mandos before they pass away from the Circles of the World. Also that they "linger" contemplating there for a short time. So it was not only in the case of Beren and Lúthien that they "stayed" there for a while.

The Saucepan Man:

There was no question of them "aging" in the normal sense, since their physical bodies had long since passed away. In that sense, they were already dead (or perhaps undead is a better term). It was only their spirits that remained. Being creatures of the spirit world, they were invisible when not cloaked in their black robes (although they still gave of an aura of fear when invisible, moreso in fact than when robed).

I completely agree with this, what I was pondering was Legolas statement:

The same way the One Ring kept Bilbo and Gollum alive so long - it was just 'magic.'

How could Sauron delay the aging and keep the Ringlords *alive* for so long? During the time they were really *alive* and not yet wraiths. Same with Gollum, how come he was *alive* after 500 years?

[The Saucepan Man]

Westerly Wizard:

Their bodies had "not long since passed away" since the bodies still exist.

I actually said that their physical bodies had long since passed away, ie their bodies in the physical, as opposed to spirit (or wraith), world. Of course, I agree that they retained their "bodies" (if you can call them that) in the wraith world - it was these that Frodo saw when he put on the Ring on Weathertop.

Gorthol:

How could Sauron delay the aging and keep the Ringlords *alive* for so long? During the time they were really *alive* and not yet wraiths. Same with Gollum, how come he was *alive* after 500 years?

Both the One Ring and the Nine Rings (and quite possibly the Seven Rings too) had the power to lengthen the lifespan of a mortal, although they did not grant immortality. (Quite possibly this was related to the power of the Elven Rings to preserve.) When worn for a sufficient length of time (dependant upon the will of the wearer to resist), they caused the wearer gradually to become a creature of the wraith world, subject to the will of Sauron, and to lose their physical body entirely (as occured with the Ringwraiths).

[Nils]

Their bodies also existed in the normal world. It is true that they were invisible, but they still existed. If they didn't then how could their shapes be seen at all? How could the ring wraiths hold swords? How could the W-K wear a crown?

[The Saucepan Man]

Well, although they were non-corporeal creatures, I do not see this as necessarily preventing them having a presence in, and interacting with, the physical world. This, for example, is the common perception of ghosts and poltergeists. But I am straying further into the realms of speculation with each post, so I will have to get back to my books, and possibly try a search here, to see what evidence there might be concerning their state of existence.

[Gorthol]

Both the One Ring and the Nine Rings (and quite possibly the Seven Rings too) had the power to lengthen the lifespan of a mortal, although they did not grant immortality. (Quite possibly this was related to the power of the Elven Rings to preserve.) When worn for a sufficient length of time (dependant upon the will of the wearer to resist), they caused the wearer gradually to become a creature of the wraith world, subject to the will of Sauron, and to lose their physical body entirely (as occured with the Ringwraiths).

The Seven and the Nine were quite different from the Three and made partly by Sauron and *also* influenced by him when he regathered them before handing them out. Wasn't the purpose of the elven rings more to preserve the nature, grass, trees, leaves, as was Galadriels wish? Couldn't it have been so that Sauron was the one who imbued the rings he gained control over (or took part in creating) with the "gift" of a prolonged life. But in the end the rings would betray each and everyone who wore them, turning them into shadows and wraiths controlled by The One.

So, the question is, where came the extended lifespan that followed with every ring from?
From Sauron, or from the elvish ideas of preserving nature as it is? Wasn't Sauron their teacher and instructor for a time?Artano.

[Finwe]

I think that the effect of prolonging the lives of mortal bearers probably came from the Elves. Remember, it was the Elves themselves who forged the Rings, not Sauron. He taught them how to do it, and probably helped them, but he didn't do it himself. I think that whenever Elves make something, for example, a piece of jewelry, a little bit of themselves goes into their creation. I think that is what happened in the case of Celebrimbor and the other Elves of Eregion. Their desire to prolong and preserve what was beautiful inadvertently prolonged the life of the mortal bearers of the Rings of Power. The Elven Rings didn't seem to have any effect like that, because their bearers were already immortal.

[Lord of Angmar]

I believe that the key to the One Ring's power over the Nine is not that it "prolonged" their lives, but rather that it trapped them in the world to advance its own purposes, much as Morgoth created the Orcs in mockery of the Children of Illuvatar for his own purposes. He brought them into the world of darkness, and I am sure that had they been given the opportunity to depart from the world they would have forsaken Sauron and followed the fate of Men. It was just that they didn't have a choice, being slaves to the will of Sauron and trapped in the wraith world... Sorry if this all seems kind of vague and broad but I would have to do a little research on Tolkien's ideas about the soul, the essence of being and ghosts/wraiths in order to provide a more complete insight.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

In my opinion, what happens to the Ringwraiths can be explained by the following text, which describes what would happen to a Mortal Man in Aman if he were given a much longer lifespan.

Considering that the Nine Rings gave the Ringwraiths an unnatural long life, in my opinion it is resonable to assume that the the effects on their body (hröa) and soul (fëa) could be analogous to the ones described in this text [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

But let us suppose that the 'blessing of Aman' was also accorded to Men. What then? Their bodies would (...) not whither or age but would endure in vigour and the delight of bodily living. But what of that Man's fëa? Its nature and 'doom' could not be changed (...) Yet it is (as the Eldar to hold) its nature and doom under the will of Eru that it should not endure Arda for long, but should depart and go elsewhither, (...)
Very soon the the fëa and hröa of a Man in Aman would not be united and at peace, but would be opposed, to the great pain of both. (...) But if he remained in Aman what should he come to, ere Arda were at last fulfilled and he found release? (...) if his fëa were strong, it would leave the hröa. Then one of two things would happen: either this would be accomplished only in hate, by violence, and the hröa, in full life would be rent and die in sudden agony; or else the fëa would in loathing and without pity desert the hröa, and it would live on, a witless body, nor even a beast but a monster, a very work of Melkor
Aman and Mortal Men; HoME10 'Morgoth's Ring'

[Gorthol]

I think that the effect of prolonging the lives of mortal bearers probably came from the Elves. Remember, it was the Elves themselves who forged the Rings, not Sauron. He taught them how to do it, and probably helped them, but he didn't do it himself.

All the rings except the Three were formed through the advice and instructions of Sauron, so using his cunning he should have been able to make them *any way he wanted*.
Remember that he could have perverted them later also, before handing them out.

[Finwe]

That's quite true. But it seems to fit a bit more with the Elven desire to preserve things, or it could also have been an inadvertent effect.

Perhaps Sauron would have also wanted the Rings to prolong the lives of their bearers so he could easily "turn" them into wraiths under his will.

[Gorthol]

Great post Amarië!

..if his fëa were strong, it would leave the hröa. Then one of two things would happen: either this would be accomplished only in hate, by violence, and the hröa, in full life would be rent and die in sudden agony; or else the fëa would in loathing and without pity desert the hröa, and it would live on, a witless body, nor even a beast but a monster, a very work of Melkor
Aman and Mortal Men; HoME10 'Morgoth's Ring'

Isn't that pretty close to what happened to the Men wearing the Nine Rings? Since that is suggested to be the work of Melkor, it would be assumable that the unending life that was part of the "gifts" of the Seven and the Nine would be a thing related to or contrieved by Sauron. It explicitly states in letter #131 that the invisibility conferred by the Seven and Nine were powers of Sauron.

The Three Elven Rings did not confer invisibility, because this is a power from Sauron, and Sauron did not have a part in the creation of the Three Elven Rings, nor did he ever touch them.

..They had, as it seemed, unending life, yet life became unendurable to them. They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men...

I might be wrong but I connect the invisibility and the unending life of the Nine, to the "gifts" and "powers" that Sauron influenced them with during their making (or when he perverted them later). Rather than to the wish of the elves to preserve things unaltered.

[Lord of Angmar]

I don't think the Elven Rings have anything to do with Sauron's enslavement of the Nazgul, save by coincidence.

[The Saucepan Man]

I think that the effect of prolonging the lives of mortal bearers probably came from the Elves. Remember, it was the Elves themselves who forged the Rings, not Sauron. He taught them how to do it, and probably helped them, but he didn't do it himself.

Quite possibly, although Sauron did forge the One Ring himself. As you say, Sauron had a hand in the making of the Rings of Power. Perhaps his counsels were received so gladly by the Elves because he was able to show them how to imbue these Rings with the power to preserve. This theory might be supported by the following passage from Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age:

It was in Eregion that the counsels of Sauron were most gladly received, for in that land the Noldor desried ever to increase the skill and subtelty of their works. Moreover they were not at peace in their hearts, since they desired both to stay in Middle-earth, which indeed they loved, and yet to enjoy the bliss of those that had departed. Therefore they hearkened to Sauron, and they learned of him many things, for his knowledge was great. In those days the smiths of Ost-in-Edhil surpassed all that they had contrived before; and they took thought, and they made the Rings of Power. But Sauron guided their labours, and he was aware of all that they did; for his desire was to set a bond upon the Elves and to bring them under his vigilance.

In this passage, the Noldor's desire to capture the timelessness of the Undying Lands in ME is linked to their acceptance of Sauron's counsels and the guidance that he offered them in the crafting of the Rings of Power. Possibly, therefore, knowing of their desire to preserve ME in a timeless state, he offered them the power to imbue their works with this power so as to gain their trust, with the aim of enslaving them through the Rings of Power. And, as a result, the Rings not only allowed the Elves to embalm their habitats in the desired timeless state, but also conferred great longetivity on mortals who bore them.

As for the state of the being of the Nazgul, I find the extract that you quoted from Morgoth's Ring very interesting, Amarië:

..if his fëa were strong, it would leave the hröa. Then one of two things would happen: either this would be accomplished only in hate, by violence, and the hröa, in full life would be rent and die in sudden agony; or else the fëa would in loathing and without pity desert the hröa, and it would live on, a witless body, nor even a beast but a monster, a very work of Melkor

If indeed the result of the 'blessing of Aman' was being accorded to Men is analagous to the effect of the Nine Rings on the Nazgul, then this passage suggests that, while their souls were subjugated to Sauron's will, their bodies did remain in existence, albeit confined to the wraith world (contrary to my earlier speculation). And on reflection, I do tend to agree with this. In The Battle of the Pelennor Fields, Merry's attack on the Witch-King is described as follows:

Merry's sword had stabbed him from behind, shearing through the black mantle, and passing up beneath the hauberk had pierced the sinew behind his mighty knee.

Similarly, it is said later in the same chapter (of Merry's sword):

No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.

So, the Witch-King was composed of flesh and sinew, and therefore did have a physical body, albeit undead and unseen. And the spell that bound this body to his will, thus allowing it to remain in existence well beyond its natural expiry date, was presumably part of the preserving power of the Ring that he bore. Merry's Westernesse blade was able to break that spell, enabling Eowyn to deal the fatal blow.

In Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age the transformation of the Nine Kings of Men into the Nine Ringwraiths is described as follows:

And they became for ever invisible save to him that wore the Ruling Ring, and they entered the realm of shadows.

So, while their physical bodies remained intact, they entered into the wraith world and became for ever trapped there.

This passage also links their invisibility with their existence in the realm of shadows. The Nine Rings at first conferred upon them the power to enter the wraith world at will and thus "walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun". But, once they "fell under the thralldom of the ring that they bore", they became forever trapped in that world and so became permamently invisible.

I see the invisibility of the One Ring as working in much the same way. On wearing the Ring, the bearer entered the shadow world and therefore became invisible. So, while wearing the Ring, Frodo was in the same realm as the Nazgul and was therefore able to see them in their true form.

[ July 01, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

[Tirned Tinnu]

Well done, SaucePan Man, that was exactly the tact I was going to take.

The Riders (in FOTR) did indeed have something like bodies, but they were weak physically and needed to be bolstered by the power of the Rings that they wore, I think.

I have often wondered why the Riders never just snatched poor Frodo off his feet and kidnapped him physically - frankly, without tremendous power, (such as displayed by the Crowned One) I don't believe they were very good a performing complex physical tasks.
Jabbing Frodo was about all they might have been able to do at the time.

I like to look at these creatures by comparing them to legends/films about longevity - such as a recently re-issued movie called "The Asphyx". What if there was a creature that came to inhabit the body at the time of death - and forced out the soul? This is the premise behind The Asphyx - the main character learned to entrap the Asphx, and live eternally.

But what of the possiblility of ensnaring one's soul and forcibly making it stay in the body? As with The Asphyx, if the soul is allowed to stay in it's body permanently, what you get is slow decay of the physical body.
Injury to the body does not affect the soul trapped there - and pain as well as the injury still exist in the body without the subject completely dying.

Horrific, that idea, of continual pain and suffering trapped in a decaying body. And the soul? What of it - is it eternally trapped in that "Otherworld" that darkside of things, where Elvish 'souls' can be viewed, where Immortal 'souls' exist? Is this the secret -- binding the human soul into the immortal realm, hiding it from The Gift?

Certainly these thoughts are disquieting, but I love talking about it. The feeling of disgust in my gullet attests to my interest! Bleh!
[img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]