To what extend did Istari know Middle-earth?

[JeyEn]

Hello! As I am reading Unfinished tales, I found this passage:

Wizard is a translation of Quenya istar (Sindarin ithron): one of the members of an "order" (as they call it), claiming to possess, and exhibiting, eminent knowledge of the history and nature the World.

So in my earlier post, I asked about Gandalf's knowledge about Bilbo's ring. This passage from Unfinished tales says they had a vast knowledge of the World. So my questions:

1. In what sense does Tolkien mean that?

2. How much did Istari know of Middle-earth? If they had knowledge of the World, they should have known Middle-earth, its people and history.

3. If they knew Middle-earth's history, they could have known much about Rings of Power, no? Therefore, Gandalf could have known much about it -> much earlier conclusion about the Ring. But I suspect that this part of my questions are stupid, since they as Maiar probably didn't visit Middle-earth, and if they did, they couldn't appear anywhere they wanted.

4. What "history and nature" is meant?

As Maiar, they probably didn't know much about Middle-earth, but if they did, Gandalf could have known about Rings of Power much more - which is a stretch, since he obviously knew very little before his further investigation.

Thanks for answers, I found this forum very much useful!!

[Galadriel55]

The Ainur know of the creation of the world. Gandalf was there when the world was shaped. So in his way, through the lens of his own part in the Song, he has knowledge of the true nature of the world and its creation.

The Valar, and the Maiar by proxy, do not have absolute knowledge of everything in Middle-earth, especially of events which occurred after the creation. For instance, they did not know about the awakening of Men. I suppose argument is to be made as to how much they knew and were subvertly involved in events of the Second and Third Ages, and whether or not Sauron's power did anything to counter that. But in either case Gandalf's knowledge is not going to be about what stone the Ring might have, but the underlying nature of the Ring and how it could affect people; the nature of Sauron and how he would think and act.

[Mithadan]

I generally agree with Galadriel. The Ainur, collectively, have an understanding of the "true" history, nature and creation of Arda. Individually, each Ainu has some degree of knowledge about Arda, generally, and specifically about their "area of interest." Thus Yavanna and her people know about growing things, Aule knows about the stuff of Arda and creating tools and things of use or beauty. Ulmo knows of the seas and waters. Manwe and Melkor were the real generalists.

The Istari were, of course, of the Ainur. They would share in the knowledge of history, nature and creation of Arda. Individually, they would have greater knowledge of areas relating to their affiliations. Saruman was a Maia of Aule, if I recall. He knew of machines and tools. Thus his interest in the history and creation of the Rings of Power. Radagast's interest and knowledge was of the animals. Gandalf was affiliated variously with Manwe, Lorien and Nienna. His knowledge was more general, but with an emphasis upon sympathy for and inspiring of the people of Middle-Earth.

However, it would seem that none of the Istari had any especial knowledge of Third Age Middle-Earth, it's geography and populations. They did not, for example, have an understanding or innate familiarity with the layout of Middle-Earth; they had no built in map. Thus Radagast had no idea where the Shire was (nor did Sauron, who was also a Maia). They had to learn about Middle-Earth, via exploration or study.

[Morthoron]

Mithadan is correct in his synopses. In addition, Unfinished Tales indicates that the Istari travelled a great deal at first, and that Saruman went with the Blue Wizards far to the East (it is conjectured in the U.T. that Allatar and Pallando might have went East and remained there as emissaries of Orome, as he was the furthest travelled of all the Valar).

We can guess that Gandalf, too, travelled quite a bit, given his different names: Mithrandir by the Elves, Gandalf in Westron, Tharkun by the Dwarves, and Icanus to the South (Haradrim meaning "North-spy") -- indicating he had at least passed south of Gondor and into Harad. But Gandalf also gave the proviso, "To the east I go not," and U.T. states, "Beyond Nurnen Gandalf had never gone."

And although the Istari may not have been familiar with the geography of Middle-earth in the 3rd Age, Gandalf, both in spirit and corporeal form, had been to Beleriand in the very early stages of the 1st Age:

...he [Gandalf] loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in the form of one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

...he [Gandalf] loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in the form of one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts.

Given the context of that quote, I had always assumed the reference was to Valinor, not to the Great Lands

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Given the context of that quote, I had always assumed the reference was to Valinor, not to the Great Lands

I'm thinking the Elves in Valinor wouldn't necessarily need promptings of wisdom or fair things, would they? Unless, of course, we are talking about just prior to the Kinslaying.

There is precedent of many Maiar (Melian being one who remained) and a Valar (Orome along with his entourage) visiting the Elves in the 1st Age. It's not like they had any prohibitions in that early age of Arda. Olorin in spirit form would not require a ship as a conveyance.

Consider this quote:

"That Olorin, as was possible for one of the Maiar, had already visited Middle-earth and had become acquainted not only with the Sindarin Elves and others deeper in Middle-earth, but also with Men, is likely, but nothing is [> has yet been] said of this" - Peoples of Middle-earth

And then there is a possible meeting of Olorin with Galadriel in the 2nd Age concerning the "Elessar"

"...Olórin (who was known in Middle-earth as Mithrandir) brought it with him out of the West. And on a time Olórin came to Galadriel, who dwelt now under the trees of Greenwood the Great..... And when Olórin had told her many tidings she sighed, and said: ‘I grieve in Middle-earth, for leaves fall and flowers fade; and my heart yearns, remembering trees and grass that do not die. I would have these in my home.’ Then Olórin said: ‘Would you then have the Elessar?’ ....And he held before her the Elessar, and she looked on it and wondered. And Olórin said: ‘This I bring to you from Yavanna. Use it as you may, and for a while you shall make the land of your dwelling the fairest place in Middle-earth....' " -- Unfinished Tales