Can Hobbits and Men learn Elf/Dwarf art and craft?

[PaigeStormblood]

Hey everyone I've been thinking if the art of the elves (or as Hobbits would call it elf magic) be teach able to a hobbit or man? For example when Sam was given the Elf Rope do you think if Sam so desired he could learn the art of crafting it himself?

The same with Dwarf runes are they purely a skill only obtainable by dwarves or can other races learn to utilize and craft runes as well?

[Mithalwen]

I think the elf's response to Sam showed that he could learn however whether he could get to a comparable skill level given the relatively small window of opportunity for mortals compared to elves who while they mature physically slower than mortals, gain mastery of their bodies quicker and do not deteriorate with age. Mortals absorb information easier in youth but skills improve with practice but their bodies age and may lose strength or capacity. So a mortal might just not be able to get the skill due to time. Though rope might be relatively straightforward. The other factor is materials. It maybe that hithlain, like the special corn used for lembas would only grow in Elvish lands so that they couldn't make true elvish rope only use the technology with available materials like methode champagnoise compared to true champagne. I don't know if more information is given on hithlain outside LOTR.

[Belegorn]

Elves have inborn abilities as sub-creators where they can do things on a scale that Men can't match. Like when Lúthien Tinúviel wove that cloak out of her hair when her father had her under house arrest.

[Mithalwen]

But that was actual magic, and Luthien, much as I detest her, is not a typical elf: her mother was a Maia and her name meant Enchantress. Tolkien's names of major characters tend to be factual rather than aspirational.. I think elves would regard Luthien's shapeshifting etc as magic, for want of a better word whereaa the Loriennelves don't see their rope in that light. It is just a higher t3chnology. For example I have just seen the trailer of the film Rush. The flame retardent materials that have come in since Nikki Lauda's horrific injuries would have seemed magical not many years earlier.

[Mornorngûr]

The Dwarf Runes were actually Elvish in origin and were devised by Daeron of Doriath. The Dwarves leanr the craft and took them over the mountains into Eriador during the first age. Men could indeed learn to use runes and have used them before in the storys, The men of Brethil wrote on Turins grave in runes of Doriath.

[Zigûr]

One must assume that, as mortals, Dwarf-lore was not as inaccessible to Men as the heights of Elf-lore might have been, and Men and Dwarves maintained friendship even when Men and Elves became estranged. The toy-market of Dale was the wonder of the North - were these 'magical' toys purely of Dwarven construction? The Men of Dale in particular payed well for their sons to be apprenticed to Dwarves, so there must be something in that regard. I think Dwarven secrets ('inner names', their secret alphabet of pictograms etc) were more a matter of culture, whereas the inaccessibility of Elf lore was more a question of time.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I think elves would regard Luthien's shapeshifting etc as magic, for want of a better word whereaa the Loriennelves don't see their rope in that light. It is just a higher t3chnology. For example I have just seen the trailer of the film Rush. The flame retardent materials that have come in since Nikki Lauda's horrific injuries would have seemed magical not many years earlier.

Hmm, I am not sure if the use of expression "higher technology" is good here. Since "technology" in Middle-Earth, in the strict sense of the word, of course means real inventions, which are often unpleasant in nature (Saruman's devices or reputed torture devices and weapons devised by goblins). Although the word "technology" would be appropriate, I agree, in certain way in relation to the First-Age craft such as the Silmarils or the Noldo-lanterns, or even the Palantíri, which seemed to be depending on "technology" which was later forgotten or unable to recreate for lack of resources (in the case of Silmarils). But when it comes to Elven cloaks, Galadriel's Mirror, or other similar things, I think somehow we shift into the realm of "magic" in the sense of "art". "Art" is something "natural" rather than "invented" - or maybe not "natural" but "inborn", a virtue one possesses. And the "Elven Art" was, like Belegorn had correctly mentioned, reserved to the Elves. Humans are simply not born with it, they cannot alter their surroundings the way Elves do. Or so I would say.

And as for Lúthien, hers would be - if it came from the Maia heritage, which I am not at all certain about - simply a "higher level of Art" for the Elves, just like the Ainur in general perform higher form of Art than the Elves (in fact, the highest - the Music itself! Can there be a higher form of Art?). As long as it stays that way, it is Art. (Evil human sorcerers, and so on, such as the Mouth of Sauron or the Witch-King, of course performed sorcery, and Galadriel speaks quite clearly to Sam about the difference between "elven magic" and the enemy's lies and sorcery. But that's a completely different topic.)

So in my opinion, to get back to the Elven "magical tools", we have two different things: art of technology, such as the Silmarils or Palantíri, which Men simply could not make because they did not have the time in their lifetime to invent something like that - that has been mentioned earlier. But "Elven magic" which Sam wished to see so much (and which we could find, I imagine, in the Elven cloaks and possibly the Elven ropes), that is beyond human limits as well, but for different reason - simply because Elves are different from Men. The point about "sub-creators" by Belegorn was very correct, in my opinion.

As for Dwarves, I think their art goes closer to "secret recipes". I can imagine humans being able to figure it out (or reproduce it if they had been told about it - maybe that was what took place at some point in Dale, in a few rare cases?), but again, they would lack time, but also resources, patience, and the depth of the knowledge in the beginning. "Average" Men, I would imagine, weren't "made" for Dwarven way of thinking. It was, after all, rather "aulëan".

[Mithalwen]

Technology means the strudy of craft, skill or art. I don't see that it is inappropriate.

I don't think we know wnough about the manufacture of elf cloaks to say they are beyond reach of mortals., in fact the evidence is rather the cotrary. The elf says they could have taught him much but not in the few seconds they had before boarding the boats. There are a limited number of ways that even an elf can twist a fibre. Similarly we know that the cloaks were woven by Galadriel and her maidens. Weaving is more complex than rope making and mayb some of the virtue is in he way it is woven but I don't see indication that other races with the same equipment couldn't reproduce it albeit less proficiently. These seem to be things that require materials, method and skill not magic even if they seem magical.

There are things that are the work of specific individuals wjich probably could not be rellicated...even Feanor could not remake the silmarils. The Mirror of Galadriel sEems quite specific to her, quite possibly a manifestation of her innate power enhanced by wielding the ring of water. It seems unlikely that just anyone elf or no could pour water into the basin and create the mirror. That is beyond skill.


I don't see how saying elves are sub creators is a conclusive argument. It seems meaningless ..how are elves sub creators in a way that excludes other races?