Two Towers?

[Turin Turambar]

I recently downloaded The Two Towers trailer and in it Gandalf is speaking to Aragorn when he says, "There is a union now between the two towers...Orthanc and Barad-Dur" The origin of the name of The Two Towers is very debatable and from what I've seen all discussions end up with Cirith Ungol and Orthanc being the towers. I personally think this is true due to the events in the book.
1. Gandalf, Aragorn, Gimli, Pippin, Merry, and Legolas are throwing down Saruman and helping the Rohirrim while
2. Frodo is trapped in Cirith Ungol and Sam is rescuing him

I'd like to know your thoughts on the matter and how do you feel that Peter Jackson interpreted the name in this way?

[Nufaciel]

I agree with you on the Two Towers meaning Cirith Ungol and Orthanc.

I think it was interpreted this way because of the movie plot. People who haven't read the book would remember Barad-dur. I mean, we don't really know what the movie holds in store for us. Plus, if the whole Shelob thing isn't happening until RotK, Cirith Ungol really doesn't have a whole lot of meaning for the second movie. But this is just a guess; I really have no idea! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Lindolirian]

I read somewhere (i know i should try not to forget where) that it was supposed to be Orthanc and Minas Morgul, but not much goes on threre except Frodo, Samm and Smeagol see the host ride out, so i'd have to agree with Orthanc and the Tower of Cirith Ungol.

[Vráin Redmallet]

Orthanc and Cirith Ungol... That sounds about right. I agree completely with you there. Cirith Ungol would be easier for the non-readers to comprehend.

[Vráin Redmallet]

Forget what I wrote up above. I kinda lost my memory for a second, so I didn't know what I was talking about. Just ignore that one above... [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

[Turin Turambar]

Yea I kind of see how Barad-Dur would be easier for those who haven't read the books. Thanks

[Daniel Telcontar]

Maybe Gandalf was talking about something else than Orthanc and Cirith Ungol, but his line sounds cool anyway. And these things are so small that they have no importance. Instead I think we should look forward to The Two Towers, which is going to be one of the best films ever, for certain!!

[Turin Turambar]

I agree it is going to be an awesome movie, but RotK will be better [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. But I do think it is a little important it is after all the foundation for the name of the book.

[GollumsPrecious]

The Two Towers are Orthanc and Minas Morgul. Not totally sure why they were specifically picked out....Orthanc is obvious but either Morgul, Cirith Ungol or Barad-Dur could have been the other one. For proof look at the cover of the 1997 paperback which like the other 2 has original Tolkien drawings on the cover.

In more detail for those who don't have it the cover shows Minas Morgul on the left and and Orthanc on the right. Below Minas Morgul there is a Crescent Moon hinting at former name of Minas Ithil..below Orthanc is the white hand of Saruman. Between them lies Mt Doom, the one ring and a winged Nazgul.

PC.

[Turin Turambar]

Thanks GollumPrecious I thought it was Cirith Ungol but the book cover pretty much closes any debate.

[Ulairi]

Orthanc and Barad-dur would be the obvious choices, because they are the two "big" towers. However Cirith Ungol makes more sense because for starters Barad-dur itself was never described in great detail as was Cirith Ungol. Plus none of the story takes place in Barad-dur, just shadowy glimpses of it.

[Kalimac]

I thought I'd read somewhere in the letters (argh! No copy with me! Does someone have theirs around?) that Tolkien himself was rather dissatisfied with the title "The Two Towers" and even makes a reference to the fact that it's ambiguous since there are at least four towers which could put in some sort of claim as being one of the two. Orthanc I think is pretty indisputably one of them since it's center-stage for such a large part of the book and so much of importance happens there - the Ents attacking, Saruman's staff being broken, the Palantir etc. As for the other tower I'd have to agree with the movie interpretation and say Barad-Dur, since its influence is felt all the way through Book IV - all of Frodo's visions of the Eye in the dark tower are visions of that tower, and it's the major stronghold of Sauron. Minas Morgul and Cirith Ungol are both unpleasant places, but their significance in TTT is comparatively fleeting. Cirith Ungol only pops up at the end and the book ends before Sam or even Frodo gets inside it. As for Minas Morgul, its interest for them is more historical than anything - "This was once Minas Ithil, but then..." - until they see the host ride out. Important, but again, it doesn't have an overriding influence on the story the way Barad-Dur does.

[ May 21, 2002: Message edited by: Kalimac ]

[piosenniel]

I always thought it was Barad-dûr and Orthanc. The Dark Tower and Mt. Fang. One of the Seeing-stones, the palantìri, of the Southern kingdom was hidden in Orthanc and this drew Saruman, who was by then(@the middle of the third age) plotting to rule over ME.

From these two towers was to issue the two pronged attack against the Free Peoples of ME, each dark lord desiring dominance over all.

Unfortunately for Saruman, his will and power was the weaker of the two.

[Sharkû]

"The Two Towers gets as near as possible to finding a title to cover the widely divergent Books 3 and 4; and can be left ambiguous – it might refer to Isengard and Barad-dûr, or to Minas Tirith and B; or Isengard and Cirith Ungol." (Letter 140)

Also, cf. the note to that letter:
"1. In a subsequent letter to Rayner Unwin (no. 143), Tolkien is more definite that the Two Towers are 'Orthanc and the Tower of Cirith Ungol'. On the other hand, in his original design for the jacket of The Two Towers (see no. 151) the Towers are certainly Orthanc and Minas Morgul. Orthanc is shown as a black tower, three-homed (as seen in Pictures no. 27), and with the sign of the White Hand beside it; Minas Morgul is a white tower, with a thin waning moon above it, in reference to its original name. Minas Ithil, the Tower of the Rising Moon."

Debated -- yes; definitely answerable -- no.

[Baran]

"There is a union now between the two towers...Orthanc and Barad-Dur"

Well, this statement is not in any ways wrong is it?
There was indeed a union beetwen (the) two towers. It doesn't say whether or not these towers are the towers the Movie (book) title refers to.
It would just sound stupid if Gandalf said
"There is a union now between the two towers...Orthanc and Barad-Dur...These towers however is not the towers the movie (book) title refers to. The movie (book) title refers to respectively Orthanc and Cirith Ungol. Got that Aragorn?" [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[Niphredil Baggins]

Some people have no doubts as to which towers are refered to in the title of the movie. There is a protest about it being an obvious reference to World Trade Center...

[Turin Turambar]

Yes Nephredil as long as their are people in the world there will also be ignorant people with them.

[piosenniel]

I just purchased a book titled 'JRR Tolkien: Artist and Illustrator'. It shows the original drawings that Tolkien made for the cover of The Two Towers. His first sketch was of the One Ring in the center, with Barad-dur on the left and Minas Tirith on the right. Later, he developed the idea of the One Ring in the middle with Minas Morgul on the left and Orthanc on the right. The final version was of the One Ring in red in the center with a nazgul flying above it. On the left was the Tower of Minas Morgul in white with a jagged edged crescent moon above it and an eclipsing moon below it. At its base nine small rings. On the Right is the Tower of Orthanc with a five pointed star above it, a wizard's pentacle ; and below it is the white hand edged in red. Between the two is Mt. Doom.

[TarElendil]

Tolkien said himself that he wasnt sure what The Two Towersmeant. Its possible that it could be any variation of Barad-dur,Minas Morgul, Minas Tirith, and Orthanc.

[Elrian]

On the very last page of FotR it states:

Here ends the first part of the history of the War of the Ring. The second part is called the Two Towers since the events recounted in it are dominated by Orthanc, the citadel of Saruman, and the fortress of Minas Morgul that guards the secret entrance to Mordor.

[TarElendil]

ah..dunno where i read tokien wasnt clear of the title..the text i read mustve had something like he wasnt sure at first

[Evenstar1]

No, Tar, I think you are correct -- that Tolkien vascilated on the meaning long after the book was published. (Though I am QUITE certain he never intended for the meaning to be any sort of reference to the World Trade Centers, which began construction in 1962, eight years after TTT's publication!)

Personally, when reading the book, I felt that the two towers were Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul -- the "good tower" and the "bad tower" which faced each other from across the Anduin...

Guess I was wrong! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[TarElendil]

, I felt that the two towers were Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul

that is also what I thought

[Elrian]

ah..dunno where i read tokien wasnt clear of the title..the text i read mustve had something like he wasnt sure at first

It's in there, but that could have been something the publisher added.

[gayare'dion]

did i hear that the shelob will be in the return of the king ? i thought i read that in a post above.

[TarElendil]

yes, shelob has been pushed back to the third movie

[Airedae]

I must say that I thought that whole debate with The Two Towers being a reference title to the attacks on the world trade centers was really pathetic. If you read alot of the opinions of the people who started it, their obviously not people who know anything about Tolkien and have no idea that the obvious reason as to why the second movie is called that is because the second book is called Two Towers...duh! These people need to really calm it down. I mean, Tolkien wrote and titled that book decades ago....It was already written in stone, already titled best to fit the following story. Those people are just wanting something to fight about...their obviously to sensitive about 9-11. It was a tragedy but the title of the new movie is no way associated...as we all know. I wish those people did....Their impossible to get calmed down and they wont listen to simple logic. Its obviously called The two Towers because uhhhhh...Tolkien called the second book that...hehe....sorry but that whole debate makes me laugh and somewhat makes me mad..cause they want PJ to change the name. I wonder what he would even call it if he had too...which i dont think he could change the name...doesnt it have tolkien copyrights in some kind of way?

Frodo Lives!
~Valerie~