Is there a call for a dentist?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Alright, so most of you are going to think this is an extremely uninteresting topic, but I'm going to start it anyway. If it has been touched on before, then I apologise for starting a new thread.

I was brushing my teeth last night and thinking about Middle Earth. (Incidentally, the time spent brushing your teeth is a really good time for some deep thought, try it out) I was wondering how Tolkien's people took care of their teeth and gums.

As far as I'm aware, Tolkien never mentions the subject. Whether in their homes, or whether they were off on adventures, how did our heroes stop their teeth from falling out?

Any thoughts?

[Evisse the Blue]

Interesting question, I must say! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
Well, I'm guessing that in the same manner as the people from the Middle Ages. Probably scrubing them with salt or something. Unless of course the Elves had some magical ingredient to make their teeth pearly white...

[Cazoz]

It is an interesting question, made even more pertinent by the abundance of nice pearly whites in the movies, and the contrast of Wormtongue's horrible teeth.

Maybe they used blades of grass like cats do to floss, or most probably they had rather primitive toothbrushes. I can imagine them with coarse, brown bristles savaging their teeth somewhere. Although I'm sure wild men and orcs wouldn't have given dental hygiene a second thought, the more established and civilised bunches such as the people of Minas Tirith and the Elves must have cleaned them somehow.

But maybe as illness didn't affect Elves, things such a tooth decay, cavities and gum disease would never occur? Their teeth probably stayed close to perfect, with minimal care. But now I'm speculating.

[Mariska Greenleaf]

It's an even more remarkable fact that the Hobbits seem to have healthy white teeth, after all, they do smoke a lot!

[ September 12, 2003: Message edited by: Mariska Greenleaf ]

[burrahobbit]

They existed before the rise of the modern sugar industry. In the past there was a lack of dental hygene, but also there was a lack of things that would destroy teeth. Once sugar became a popular item, dentistry was invented.

Also, Tolkien also never mentions anybody going number two.

[Mithadan]

Primitive men used twigs with frayed or teased apart ends as toothbrushes. Burrahobbit correctly points out that the lack of white sugar was likely a factor.

Burra, getting a bit fixated, aren't we?

[burrahobbit]

Possibly.

[Bêthberry]

LOTR is not a sociological treatise; we don't scour it to discover the nature of past civilization's garbage.

Furthermore, explicit fixations on bodily functions did not figure predominantly in most early literature. Certainly there were ribald texts such as those by Rablais and Chaucer's Miller's Tale, but these were mainly for comedic purposes. Mikhail Bahktin's study of Rabelais and other work on carnival also suggests that the basis for this comedy was really revolt against authority and order in highly regemented communities.

LOTR, although it does have its humorous moments, is not a comedic book. Nor is it particularly radical or revolutionary.

[Legolas]

Unless one was to say it was "Radically awesome and far out, dude."

[Ainaserkewen]

Nice bit Bêthberry,

An answer to one of the original question: How did anybody before the invention of toothbrushes keep their teeth from falling out? I know they had some forms of cleaning their teeth but you're right, no one ever mentions them.

In "The making of the movie" book there was an artical about how all the extras and even the leads all had some work done on their teeth to indicate tooth dicay(except maybe the elves) Actually, someone said that one of the keys to making a movie look older was the teeth. So at least PJ and his team put consideration into it.

I don't think there was need to mention that everyone had bad teeth in the book, it's like saying that "She had bad teeth and blue eyes" it could be written but it's not that important. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Sharkû]

From the few yet unambiguous descriptions of bad teeth we have in the Legendarium, we can deduce with some certainty that they were not the rule among Elves or Men.

Gollum, after having degenerated in a dark cave for several hundred years, has only six yellow/white fangs, which, however, are still sharp.

At least one orc is described as having yellow teeth, hardly surprisingly so.

Morwen, wife of Húrin, only had 'broken teeth' after being forsaken in the wild for a long time and having become generally ragged (cf. Wanderings of Húrin).

Of Finrod, however, it is poetically said that he slew the great wolf 'with hands and teeth'.

[burrahobbit]

one of the keys to making a movie look older was the teeth.

That is more to play on your expectations than anything. There is a difference between looking older, and looking as it actually did a long time ago.

[juhsstin]

they certainly do a lot of eating in the book, it only follows by logic that they would do a lot of #2 and #1 as well. but it would also be funny if he included it. i suppose eating has a joyous celebratory (or at least positive) connotation to it.

besides, there's always algae which has dental hygienic properties. surely there might also have been some elven weed with such effects?

[Angry Hill Troll]

"Teeth...but we has only six, precioussss!"

Tolkien does mention the subject in at least this instance.

[Oddwen]

Gollum kept his fangs sharp with a rock, as well.
In the olden days, I don't think people kept their teeth from falling out, true, sugar was not refined and was in a more natural and healthy state, but reading about wooden teeth and teeth made from hippopotamus molars makes me think dentistry and dental health was practically unknown.

[THE Ka]

A surprising topic i may say myself...

well, i don't really have a good answer for this one but, people, bare with me. so i am going to make a Hypothesis... ( in laymens terma an educated guess, which i do all the time here... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] )

Well, my guess is that they might have used salt, but, if they would have to at least swallow some of the salt they put in their mouths. And that would over time result in dehidration... not good...

Another is they might have refered to a mixture of minerals and herms (like the ancient egyptians and many other fabulous cutures of ancient time did). If they were to use a mixture i think they would have to know the ingredients cleansing properties... which would take alot of reasearch and trial and error factors. good for me anyway, [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]


I hope they didn't result in what the Romans desided was a good tooth cleaning liquid.. shudder.. [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]


Magnificent cities are created by men and women with dreams.Then there come the riders of the North and East and they trample and destroy magnificence.
- marius, blood and gold

[burrahobbit]

wooden teeth

That was after the sugar industry.

Tolkien does mention the subject in at least this instance.

Please read all of the posts that are already there before you post.

[Bêthberry]

Unless one was to say it was "Radically awesome and far out, dude."

True, true enough, Legolas. And I suppose there might be those squeamish sorts who would cry out, when Gollem bites off the ring, "Eeewww, that's revolting."

[Knight of Gondor]

Ah, cosmetics in Middle-Earth. An interesting topic!

I would guess that Elves, since they do not age in any other respect, are out of the question. Since their hair makes such good bow-strings, perhaps they flossed with it too.

It is in men and hobbits that the question of teeth come up. I suppose it's possible that the ancient civilizations of men rubbed their teeth with rags or clothes or something, maybe? Not in historical terms, but in fictional terms in ME. You notice Éowyn grinning when the King rises after his healing in Meduseld, and you don't get them pearly whites without a lot of brushing!

As for dwarves, I'm guessing Gimli just picked his teeth with his axe or something.

The hobbits, well, I don't know about their teeth.

I noticed in The Art of The Fellowship of the Ring that one of the artists mentioned about a diagram of Bag End that he did, in fact, add a bathroom in, even though you never see or hear tell of it in the movie.

It's also an interesting thought about Rangers. They wander the wild, and everyone here on earth thinks "Oh, they're so awesome", but you don't think about the cold nights sleeping on cold earth, and digging holes in the ground. Very unromantic! I never did see Aragorn carrying a shovel or anything...did he use his sword?

Anyway, I hope I'm not causing any disgusting thoughts. I don't take pleasure or humor in delving into the untolds of the characters we all like in the Rings series, but it's interesting to ponder.

[Miz Lobelia]

Well, now, THIS is an interesting topic!

Actually, there was a lot of tooth decay before the invention of the sugar industry. Carbohydrates, particularly bread, are bad for your teeth. And in areas where there was a lot of sand (which got into the bread) ancient peoples had even more tooth problems.

Elves are immune to disease and so would not have to worry about tooth decay, though, of course, they might choose to brush for cosmetic reasons. No doubt having a full set of teeth contributed to the famed beauty of Luthien, Galadriel, and Arwen!

[burrahobbit]

Actually, there was a lot of tooth decay before the invention of the sugar industry. Carbohydrates, particularly bread, are bad for your teeth.

Point conceded.

Hobbits: would have a sugar industry and lots of bread/carbohydrates beside. I don't see why they couldn't have toothbrushes, though I would expect many of them not to care.

I would expect the caring to lessen as you travel east, including the cities of Gondor. They live in at best the middle ages, I wouldn't expect many of them to be regular bathers.

Elves are not slain by disease, but I've never heard of anybody dying of bad breath. Probably they would need to (and would) brush. A person like Aragorn would probably brush when he was in a place like Rivendell, where such things would be available, but he would also realize that if he left them there when he went out ranging he could carry just that much more food, or that many more arrows.

[Aredhel Idril Telcontar]

Well, dental hygiene and any other kinds of hygiene is not necessary to put in an adventure story. We simpy assume it was done. If Tolkien had put every little detail into action, there would be a lot of unnecessary writing. It's obvious that, for example, when the Fellowhip was walking the wilderness they would have to relieve themselves etc. Maybe the threat of Sauron dampened the need to wash ones hair etc.
It was simply done, but there was no reason to write how it was done.

Interesting thread, by the way.

-Aredhel

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Now burrahobbit, neither have I heard of a case where someone has died of bad breath. However, I have heard of cases where people have died due to gum infections.

[Evisse the Blue]

Ok - this is slightly off topic and very flippant but since we're talking ME hygiene, the subject of lavatory accesibility is bound to come up. This is of course closely connected with the idea of central heating and plumming - all part of a technology that is shunned in the ME universe. So is it safe to assume the ME folk had no lavatories at all, or no lavatories inside buildings? I would venture to say hobbits were an exception them being the kind of creatures of comfort that they are.
Um, if this subject is considered inapropriate, taboo or simply out of line by some people, -feel free to delete it , no hard feelings. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Knight of Gondor]

So is it safe to assume the ME folk had no lavatories at all, or no lavatories inside buildings?

I noticed in The Art of The Fellowship of the Ring that one of the artists mentioned about a diagram of Bag End that he did, in fact, add a bathroom in, even though you never see or hear tell of it in the movie.

I think I know a Ranger's secret for good teeth! Just use your wild and unkempt hair! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Diamond18]

Also, Tolkien also never mentions anybody going number two.

Are you implying that he did, in fact, make mention of number one? [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

There is somewhat of a difference between dental hygiene and bowel movements, of course. One is a process which requires a technique, the other just happens. So I'm not sure what toliets in Hobbit holes and Aragon's shovel has to do with this topic. And I wouldn't classify the matter of tooth brushing under fixation with bodily functions. People see your teeth and smell your breath, it's a very public thing. So when an author mentions the beauty or nobility of a character's appearance, you expect said character to have at least tolerable looking teeth. In my mind's eye I just don't see Aragon being crowned king and looking majestic with a thick layer of plaque on his teeth....

That said, I wouldn't expect Tolkien to have to tell us how people in Middle-earth maintain their teeth—daily dental details isn't something one usually finds in heroic fiction, for good reason. I think bodily functions and basic hygiene should really only be mentioned when it effects the plot or the character, otherwise who really cares about it? Well... besides members of internet forums, of course.... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]