The creature Gothmog at the Siege of Minas Tirith

[Pitchwife]

Interesting discussion, everybody! Just a few notes, chiefly linguistic:

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Gordis's hypothesis seems to be that "Aran Morgûl"--half translated, by his theory, in one spot, as "the Morgûl-king"--is "King of Black Sorcery" not "King Black Sorcery." That little word "of" makes a lot of difference in English.

In English, yes. However, there seems to be no such thing as that little word in Sindarin, nor an inflected genitive like the English -'s-forms. Sindarin (like Welsh) expressed possession by word order only, the possessed following the possessor (cf Minas Tirith "Tower [of] Guard", the "of" merely implied). So Aran Morgûl does (or can) indeed mean "King of Black Sorcery".
I'm not sure how "King Morgûl" - Morgûl taken as a personal name - would be phrased correctly in Sindarin. (I have a hunch it might be Morgûl Aran - word order reversed, as in "Théoden King" - , but that's mere speculation.) Anyway, Aran Morgûl may well be ambiguous, especially for non-native speakers of Sindarin, and possibly translate as "King of Black Sorcery" or "King M.", depending on context.

Gordis wrote:

Otherwhise how come both the Gondorians and the Mordorians started to use the same name "Minas Morgul" after 2002? It is unlikely they have agreed on it. So, who was the first to call it "Minas Morgul" and why?

Do we actually know that Sauron's people called Minas Morgûl by this name? The Dark Tower was called Lugbúrz by the Orcs, not Barad-dûr. Likely they would have used a Black Speech name for Minas M. as well.

JeffF wrote:

There is also the possibility that the Kingdom of Angmar was named after the individual whose name was Angmar.

I don't think so. Angmar seems to be a Sindarin place name meaning something like "Iron Dwelling" or "Iron Land" (bar/mar "home, dwelling", from older *mbar, could refer to a house, a town or even a whole region, cf Eldamar "Elvenhome"). Unlikely name for an individual.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by JeffF.

There is also the possibility that the Kingdom of Angmar was named after the inidvidual whose name was Angmar. The name has no previous affiliation with any region in the North and appears only after the Witch King forms it there.
.

Edit: Sorry I have overlooked Pitchwife's post and told exactly the same thing: Angmar is certainly a place-name.
Morover, (unlike Morgul) the name Angmar has nothing dark or ominous about it, most likely it refers to the presence of iron in the mountains.

Also note this quote:

‘It was in the beginning of the reign of Malvegil of Arthedain that evil came to Arnor. For at that time the realm of Angmar arose in the North beyond the Ettenmoors. Its lands lay on both sides of the Mountains, and there were gathered many evil men, and Orcs, and other fell creatures. [The lord of that land was known as the Witch-king, but it was not known until later that he was indeed the chief of the Ringwraiths, who came north with the purpose of destroying the Dúnedain in Arnor, seeing hope in their disunion, while Gondor was strong.]’ LOTR, App A

It is clearly said that the lord of Angmar was known as the Witch-King (Aran Morgul in Sindarin I believe), not as "Angmar".

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

In English, yes. However, there seems to be no such thing as that little word in Sindarin, nor an inflected genitive like the English -'s-forms. Sindarin (like Welsh) expressed possession by word order only, the possessed following the possessor (cf Minas Tirith "Tower [of] Guard", the "of" merely implied). So Aran Morgûl does (or can) indeed mean "King of Black Sorcery".
I'm not sure how "King Morgûl" - Morgûl taken as a personal name - would be phrased correctly in Sindarin. (I have a hunch it might be Morgûl Aran - word order reversed, as in "Théoden King" - , but that's mere speculation.) Anyway, Aran Morgûl may well be ambiguous, especially for non-native speakers of Sindarin, and possibly translate as "King of Black Sorcery" or "King M.", depending on context.

Thank you for the excellent analysis of Sindarin word order.

I have checked HOME 9 where there is the draft of the rejected LOTR Epilogue with Aragorn's letter to Sam in Sindarin. It is signed:

Elessar Telcontar: Aragorn Arathornion Edhelharn, Aran Gondor ar Hir i Mbair Annui

King of Gondor is indeed "Aran Gondor" without any "of". I don't know how to translate "King Elessar", Elessar Aran or Aran Elessar, but I am no expert in Sindarin anyway.


Edit: I've found some cases of "Aran" in HOME 12:

For Orome a name had been made in Primitive Eldarin (recalling the sound of his great horn) of which Orome was the Quenya form, though in Sindarin it had become Araw, and by the Sindar he was later more often called (Aran) Tauron 'the (king) forester'. Manwe and Varda they knew only by the names 'Elder King' and 'Star-queen': Aran Einior and Elbereth.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Do we actually know that Sauron's people called Minas Morgûl by this name? The Dark Tower was called Lugbúrz by the Orcs, not Barad-dûr. Likely they would have used a Black Speech name for Minas M. as well.

Well an Orc refers to Minas Morgul by its Sindarin name:

Snaga: I’ve fought for the Tower against those stinking Morgul-rats, but a nice mess you two precious captains have made of things, fighting over the swag. -LOTR , The Tower of Cirith Ungol

Barad-Dur is indeed called Lugburz by Orcs. It is interesting that in the LOTR drafts (HOME 8) there was the Black Speech name for Minas Morgul devised: "Dushgoi":

Yes, we, Shagrat. We, mark you. But why we're going to your miserable tower I don't know. We found the spy, my lot were there first. He should be ours. He should be taken back to Dushgoi.'(47)
'Yes, and I know them, for I was told 'em by Lugburz, see? Yagfil from Dushgoi will patrol until he meets your guard, or as far as Ungol top: be will report to you before returning to report to Dushgoi. Your report was nothing. Very useful. You can take it back to Dushgoi as soon as you like.'
This was rejected as soon as written, replaced by 'Orders to you. I'm in command of this Pass. So speak civil', and with it went the last appearance of the name Dushgoi of Minas Morghul.
47. Dushgoi: Orc name for Minas Morghul.

There must have been some considerations for Tolkien to remove the name "Dushgoi" and use the Sindarin word "Morgul". (Maybe because the WK's name "Aran Morgul" was not allowed to be translated into Orc speech ? - but the latter is pure speculation )

[Galin]

Sindarin also looks to have had a possessive article, alongside word order, to express a genitival construction (of). Consider the examples in Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed: Narn e-Dinuviel, 'Tale of Tinuviel' and Narn en-El *Tale of the Star (without proper diacritics here)

The Sindarin possessive article is discussed in some detail in Vinyar Tengwar 35, page 11 and note 27, along with examples like Ennyn Durin Aran Moria 'Doors (of) Durin, lord (of) Moria.