Could it have worked?

[The Only Real Estel]

Now that the movies are over and done with (sorry to remind you again), I have a nagging question. Spurred by Eomer's retrospective Shelob, and choice of cliffhangers thread that searches the 'what if,' I want to discuss a what if that's been thrown about a bit before - Faramir.

With all the movies and extended editions having been released, what is everyone's final opinion on Faramir? Could it have worked to make him more 'bookish'? Could they have had him resist the Ring and not totally screw the film?

I was thinking it over not long ago and thought, If they did have Faramir pass up the Ring, a good bunch of the forgetful audience is going to wonder how hard it really is to resist the Ring. But after thinking it over a bit it really wouldn't be that hard to throw in a line to deal with that. Example:

Faramir meets the hobbits, perhaps you have the tense "I could kill you, NOW" line from the books; then Faramir settles down and explains to Frodo that he would never take the Ring. They find Gollum and Frodo tricks him like in the movie (<---it's not all just chit-chat between new buddies), Faramir eventually, after not to long, sends them on their way. Now, when Pippin and Gandalf happen across Faramir in RotK and Gandalf says "Tell me everything," couldn't we stick a line in here that wouldn't insult the audience's intelligence to badly?

Example:

Cut away to the three of them in a seperate room, with Pippin mostly in a corner, more than likely.

Faramir explains that he let the hobbits and the Ring go, wanting no part of it.

Gandalf sighs in relief and says something along the lines of: "It is fortunate that you sent them on their way quickly, the longer the Ring is in your presence the harder you may find it to give It up."

Now, I'm no screenwriter, and I'm sure that that scene could be written much more eloquently than that. But wouldn't that work? It would deal with Boyens’ (screenwriter) assertion that having Faramir show a little strength of character would totally destroy the Ring's power by illustrating that no matter how 'righteous' Faramir seemed to be (or others might seem to be), the Ring could quickly corrupt good morals.

Or do you all think that I'm a disillusioned visionary and that the movie is better of the way it is? At any rate I'd love to hear your opinions and/or any other ideas on how to make it work better.

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

I think there probably was a way for Faramir not to be changed...and I do like your idea, but I think that perhaps there is a faction of the audience that isn't so patient as to listen to all that talking. I'm not saying that's me...but there are some people out there who don't really care to see Faramir sitting down to a chat with Frodo and Sam... and then another one with Gandalf and Pippin.

I enjoy acting, and just from an actor's standpoint, the way that the script was written for the movie is far more interesting than the book (though from a Tolkien fan's perspective, I prefer the book). There's much more of an arc and development in the movie, which makes it more fun to play...and translates into a more interesting performance onscreen for those certain people who can't appreciate just talking with very little action.

I love the books, but I appreciate that things sometimes translate differently to screen. Sometimes in order to keep things rolling, changes need to be made. PJ thought that showing Faramir as the person he was in the book would hinder the movie onscreen. I don't think he was right about the audience thinking that the Ring had lost its power, but perhaps the scriptwriters had come out with some drafts of Faramir being unchanged, and then they were rejected as not conveying the power properly or as slowing things down. There is a group of fans who are not true fans of the book and are just in it for action, and they may have been bored by all the talking that would ensue.

I don't mean to sound like I'm using all that as an excuse to validate the change. I was just as thrown by it as the next Tolkien fan, and I still prefer the book version. It's just that there were many elements to consider.

[Imladris]

Or, during the time used to shoot Faramir bringing Frodo to Osgiliath, he could have used the time to show the lure of the Ring briefly and efficiently, without too much added dialogue.

In fact, PJ sort of touched on this when Faramir first saw the Ring...except it should have been bigger in a more subtle way. If that makes any sense. Basically the music would have been the driving force...tense, powerful, dark, etc. Then maybe there could have been a "flash-back-esque" scene showing Faramir bearing the Ring and leading Gondor to victory, afterward showing him falling to darkness...

After this scene, it would cut back to Frodo and Sam and Faramir letting them go. To my mind, something like this would have been much better than what PJ decided to do.

But even so, Faramir's change doesn't bother me nearly as much as it did before. Some things have to be changed, and I for one do not have movie making experiences...all I can say is what would have been cool to happen, not what would have been best.

[Kath]

The change of Faramir annoys me intensely as he was a favourite from the books due to his noble actions and his similarity (in my mind) to Aragorn.

I can see why they changed him, for a more intense storyline it did work well, but I still don't like it. Imladris' idea of a flash-forward scene would have worked wonderfully. It would have shown again the power of the Ring and given the audience a respect for Faramir that he could see the evil inherent in the Ring and so let Frodo and Sam go. There would be no need to cut out any of the preceeding scenes such as the attack or the capture of Gollum, this could still be how Faramir discovers that they have it.

Any budding film-makers around who want to give that a try .

[The Only Real Estel]

Posted by Imladris:

But even so, Faramir's change doesn't bother me nearly as much as it did before.

I agree with you here.

Posted by AW:

I think there probably was a way for Faramir not to be changed...and I do like your idea, but I think that perhaps there is a faction of the audience that isn't so patient as to listen to all that talking. I'm not saying that's me...but there are some people out there who don't really care to see Faramir sitting down to a chat with Frodo and Sam... and then another one with Gandalf and Pippin.

Good point. I'm sure the audience would get tired if there were a couple of longish scenes of just talking. But I'd say if we snuck the Faramir comment in while he was already talking to the hobbits in the cave it wouldn't make it to much longer. And the Gandalf/Faramir scene wouldn't be very long at all, basically only long enough to say what I suggested. But I'm sure the movie goers would get bored quickly if those scenes dragged.

Posted by Imladris:

In fact, PJ sort of touched on this when Faramir first saw the Ring...except it should have been bigger in a more subtle way. If that makes any sense. Basically the music would have been the driving force...tense, powerful, dark, etc. Then maybe there could have been a "flash-back-esque" scene showing Faramir bearing the Ring and leading Gondor to victory, afterward showing him falling to darkness...

That sounds like an awesome idea to me, it would also help any attentive members of the audience to see what Boromir was imagining before his bad choice and untimely death.

[Gurthang]

Man, that does sound like a great idea. I would love to see that. There are already some good thoughts posted here, so let me just add:

Initially, I hated the movie Faramir. The first time I saw RotK in theatres, I thought it made him out to be a bad guy. The EE helped a lot, yet he still seemed to have weak character, and that's what I didn't like. Yet the part that still bothers me the most is that meaningless trek to Osgiliath. If you take that out, you could get both Estel's idea and Imladris's flash-forward in with plenty of room to spare. I don't know, maybe those ideas wouldn't have worked (I don't see why!) but I just wish we could take Osgiliath out of the picture!

Oh, and I wouldn't mind not seeing that brutal scene with Gollum again. The one where Faramir watches two of his men beat Smeagol. And then that bizarre exchange of words between them, well, actually I thought that was kinda *cough* funny, but, ehem. But the beating made Faramir look cruel and really made me not like him.

[Boromir88]

I don't see it necessary in changing Faramir's character. I don't see how it would drag down the effect of the ring. A big aspect in Tolkien is that nothing is "all-powerful," everything has it's own limits and weaknesses. Gandalf can't chuck a mountain at a batallion of orcs, the ring CAN be resisted at certain times, Sauron has his own weaknesses, everyone and everything has their own limits. To portray the ring as this all-powerful, unstoppable force I just don't think it works.

I do think TTT EE does give Faramir some justice, as it shows he is pressured by his father, however I think this actually drags Faramir's character down even from an entertainment standpoint. It portrays Faramir as a whiny Captain searching for the approval of his father. Far more entertaining to me is as shown in Tolkien is that everyone has their own minds. Even king's servants, guards, and sons have a mind of their own and are able to judge what is good and what is not. They are able to think for themselves instead of being mindless robots always seeking to do their lord's will. Beregond, Hama, and Faramir are all examples of this. And I think to make them mindless robots only drags down their character.

Imladris I like your idea of creating this sort of flash-back scene (or more like a "What would happen") between Faramir and the Ring. Also on a side...

In fact, PJ sort of touched on this when Faramir first saw the Ring...except it should have been bigger in a more subtle way.

Jackson seems as if he doesn't like subtlety as he beats a lot of things into our heads (Gimli's humorous character, Denethor the punching bag and slob...)

[Elendhel]

I think it was completely possible to have Faramir appear as he did in the book.

Look at the fellowship (Excluding Boromir of course) the Ring had little effect on any of them at all, and yet that did not leave anyone questioning the power and allure of the Ring.

Faramir's resistance would have been (is) a refection upon his strength of character, not on the weakness of the Ring itself.

It seems that Frodo, Boromir, Denethor, Gollum, Sauron, Saruman and Gandalf are the only people in the film that express any desire for the ring at all (excepting the prologue in which case include Isildur). Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, I could very well be. That hardly speaks of the Rings formidable hold over willpower. But the film makes it clear that the Ring is powerful, we didn't need Frodo to face a threat from Faramir.

[Boromir88]

Look at the fellowship (Excluding Boromir of course) the Ring had little effect on any of them at all, and yet that did not leave anyone questioning the power and allure of the Ring.

That's mostly because Boromir was easy prey for the Ring and the Ring had really no need to work on anyone else. Boromir was the ideal person for the Ring to work on and if he wasn't in the Fellowship it would have found somebody else. Bottom line is Boromir was just the first, and easiest to fall to the ring, and that's why Frodo realized he had to get out of the Fellowship. And once Boromir is out of the picture, in steps Gollum, another easy target...

[Elendhel]

I understand that the fact that the Ring worked it's magic on Boromir means that it had no reason to affect any (more) of the fellowship, and that just confirims my point. There was plenty to suggest that the Ring had power over people. Faramir did not need to be tempted.

Despite the ratio of people that were tempted to the people who weren't, it was clear that the Ring had significant power.

[Meneltarmacil]

Actually, as far as the Fellowship goes, Aragorn also seems to be tempted a little near the end of FOTR, though he resists it.

I do think that Faramir's bringing Frodo, Sam, and Gollum to Osgiliath was not really necessary. Having him show signs of seriously being tempted by the Ring and just barely resisting it while making things tense for Frodo is probably enough. The idea of a flash-forward would fit in really well with PJ's style too.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I think the idea was to give Frodo a threat. Remember that Shelob wasn't there to supply an awesome cliffhanger ( ) so the Director had to give Frodo some action. So he just warped Faramir into a baddie for most of the film.

Sad, I know; but Faramir's not the major character and is thus expendable (not that our major characters were immune from creative liberty but o well...)

My main problem with the Faramir-Osgiliath story is that it's boring and uninteresting. So-called 'action scenes' are not necessarily better than intense Frodo-Faramir interrogation (which would actually include acting).

Think about it this way: We already had the Battle at Helm's Deep; we didn't need much more 'action'! Let's get some acting in the films; that's going to be much better than having some random Gondorian soldier shouting "Look out!" shortly before a wall in Osgiliath collapses. (And how come all the action and noise stopped for a couple of seconds so that everyone could hear that guy's helpful remark? What was that all about?)

Free Faramir! Send Shelob back to TTT!

[Tuor of Gondolin]

(About movie "story arch")
It's hard to say which was worse character assassination in the films,
Denethor or Faramir, and both of the changes by PJ and friends
actually weakened the film story vis-a-vis the book. Especially irritating
was the expressed view of (Fran Walsh?) about Faramir needing a
"character arch". This shows the limited creativity in film these days.
Why shoudn't some characters, especially in film terms "minor" ones,
have a steady "character"?

P.S. An even worse example of Hollywood/film imagination is the
endless procession of remakes, sequels, movies based on TV shows, etc.

P.P.S. I still give FOTR movie a B+, but the other two lesser grades,
largely due to some ridiculous changes, generally all all too well known.
In the interests of "Character archs" the movies generally simplified
many fascinating characters (Faramir, Denethor, Gimli--- perhaps PJ or FW
will tell what happened to his character arch).

P.P.P.S. But there's no denying the brilliant scenary, selection of
actors, etc.

P.P.P.P.S. And I have to admit one of my favorite bits is the rather
sexy first film encounter of sword-wielding Arwen and Aragorn.

[Dimturiel]

What I notice about the movie is that it has a rather negative attitude towards Men. I mean, look at the way Denethor is made to look far worse than he really is,or how Aragorn attaks the Mouth of Sauron for no reason and how Faramir tries to take the Ring. All these changes affected me deeply,especially when it could have been so great to just stick to the book. I would have liked to see Faramir shown as the noble man that he really is and I would have prefered the things that he says to Frodo-especially when he confesses that he does not love war in itself, but what it deffends- to all the fight scenes at Osgiliath, no matter how exiting they might be to the person sitting next to me at the cinema

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Well, that's the thing: I didn't think the Faramir/Osgiliath fighting scenes were exciting at all. The only bit I liked was Mardil/Madril/Mablung/Macbeth/Grey-haired guy getting stuck like a pig. (Get it? Like a pig? Because Gothmog....nevermind.)

I liked the hopeless charge but that wasn't much of a fight, and it was book-based. It is the extra action scenes which didn't add anything.

Free Faramir!

[The Only Real Estel]

The Osgiliath stuff really didn't excite me that much either. Especially not the TTT one, which is what I assume we're mostly centering on here. It certainly wasn't on an irreplaceable level for me, & I can't imagine that it was anyone's favorite part of the movie; it's not like we'd be pulling out a Helm's Deep to get 'normal Faramir' in there.

[Meneltarmacil]

Actually, the attack on Osgiliath in ROTK does fit in well with the plot in my opinion and leads to a very good scene with Gandalf driving the Nazgul off, so I don't really see much of a reason for getting rid of it.

I do agree, though, that putting Osgiliath in TTT really didn't work all that well. The tension could be built up much better with some good bits of dialogue without tossing Evil Faramir and the Nazgul in there.

[Gurthang]

I must admit that, although I didn't like the fact or the events surrounding it, I found the Hopeless Charge (Faramir to Osgiliath) to be a very sentimental scene. Especially with Pippin's little "All Shall Fade" number.

But beyond that, it didn't make sense. Why send a whole bunch of troops back to retake a beaten down mass of stone? I think it's smarter not to spread yourself out in the situation Denethor was in. But then, he was a complete idiot and a jerk in the movies, so that fit well with his character.

In short, it's like everything else. It looked good, but made no sense and was completely non-Tolkien.

[The Only Real Estel]

I must admit that, although I didn't like the fact or the events surrounding it, I found the Hopeless Charge (Faramir to Osgiliath) to be a very sentimental scene. Especially with Pippin's little "All Shall Fade" number.

I like that part also (strategy notwithstanding ). It's not really Osgiliath in general that I thought was bad, just most of the Osgiliath screen time in TTT (hence this thread ).

[Dimturiel]

I think that Tolkien would have liked the Hopeless Charge from ROTK including Pippin's song. It somehow fits with the atmosphere of Middle Earth. But he would have surely hated to see Frodo and Sam in Osgiliath in [B]TTT[/B. Sam says in the movie that by rights they should not even be there and he is more than right. They should not be in Osgiliath, they should be on their way to Mordor!

[Cailín]

I completely agree with the Osgiliath scene in the Two Towers being unnecessary. It was not very interesting, not very convincing and not even very sensational after the impressive scenes of the battle of Helm's Deep.

Though the extended version made it all somewhat better, I was disappointed in PJ's portrayal of Faramir. I also don't agree that it made the Ring look more powerful and harder to resist, for it is easier to believe someone turning away from it directly than someone who had already a mind to take it and then eventually decide against it. It is rather like smoking (though, naturally, the Ring was a bit more powerful - and arguably more lethal - than a cigarette): it's easier to turn away from it all together than to give up once you've decided to start.

I do think the flashback scene would have been a great idea. In general, I'd say that Faramir's so-called character arch annoyed me most in all the Lord of the Rings movies.