"Gandalf on a white oliphaunt" - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

metropolis_part_one · 02-17-2004, 02:29 AM

At the end of 'The Black Gate is Closed' Frodo says:

"I wish we had a thousand oliphaunts with Gandalf on a white one at their head"

Why does Frodo say "white one", since last he knew, Gandalf was Grey, not White?

burrahobbit · 02-17-2004, 03:01 AM

Because white is awesome.

Estelyn Telcontar · 02-17-2004, 05:37 AM

I would imagine 'white' so as to be distinguishable from the other, grey oliphaunts. Frodo apparently recognizes Gandalf as an unusual person, deserving of an unusual mount. Even more interesting, he recognizes Gandalf as the leader of Middle-earth's opposition to Sauron - higher than Aragorn, though the latter is designated king.

Kronos · 02-17-2004, 05:54 AM

And because White is usually seen as the opposite to Black which was Sauron’s motif.

Plus the cost of insurance will usually be lower on a white vehicle.

Angry Brandybuck · 02-17-2004, 06:03 AM

Imagine insuring an Oliphaunt anyway! I suppose you wouldn't have to worry about Fire and Theft...

I think Kronos was right with the whole opposite to black thing. Or maybe Tolkien got himself all muddled as to who knew what about who? Thats unlikely as the publishers probably had an army of monkeys chained to desks trained to check for any discrepancies in the text.

Kransha · 02-17-2004, 08:44 AM

I think it's the anti-evil thing going on there. He didn't know Gandalf was White now, but he obviously wanted this magical Oliphaunt parade to be flashy and aesthetically pleasing (not that it could actually happen). He just chose white because it seemed like an appropriate color for a mumak other than grey.

doug*platypus · 02-17-2004, 04:34 PM

Quote:

the publishers probably had an army of monkeys chained to desks

Agreed. That's what I would have done!

Yes, white is definitely the colour of good in the world of Middle-Earth. Good is always white, silver or golden and shines. Evil is always black and dark. Letters (can't remember which) makes an interesting point... that evil isn't evil because it's black. It's the other way around: evil appears to be repulsive and dark because it is evil. Likewise, good things or people such as Galadriel, Glorfindel or Frodo seem to shine because they are good.

Perhaps Frodo saw the inner light of Gandalf that was always hidden by his old, grizzled countenance and his grubby grey cloak. He did, after all, foresee the appearance of Gandalf the White in the Mirror of Galadriel.

Finwe · 02-17-2004, 07:10 PM

Or... Frodo had one of his nifty prophetic dreams, in which he dreamed about Gandalf in white robes. Heck, if he dreamed about him (Gandalf) being on Orthanc, surely the pressures of being in Mordor could have forced him to have another semi-prophetic or clairvoyant dream.

Secret Fire · 02-17-2004, 09:22 PM

Frodo did see Gandald in white in teh mirror of Galadriel, but he was not sure if it was Gandalf or Sarumon, but the coloation is not the issue here, technically, if we were to be keeping track, Frodo does not know that Gandalf is even alive, so it is all just a wish.

Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1 · 02-18-2004, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kronos
Plus the cost of insurance will usually be lower on a white vehicle.

Really? Why?

I agree, he wouldn't have bothered to say a grey one, as all the others are grey. It would in no way distinguish him. And now that you point it out, I suppose it is interesting to note that Frodo identified him as the chief mover of events. I wonder why?
As for Tolkien's letters...which letter was that? I haven't read all of them yet though, having been distracted with Schindler's Ark. Although I find the Letters more engrossing actually...sad, but true.

Firefoot · 02-18-2004, 03:27 PM

I think that it is because a white oliphaunt would be distinguishing, and also becuase white is seen as the color of good. Also, white is one of the few colors that makes sense. What could Frodo say? "I wish we had a thousand oliphaunts with Gandalf on a blue one at their head"? That doesn't make sense. The distinguishing colors that you are left with are probably black, brown, and white. And for JRRT's purposes, white worked best. Though I suppose he could have been tying it in because Gandalf was the White, even though Frodo didn't know that.

02-17-2004, 02:29 AM	#1
metropolis_part_one Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 25	"Gandalf on a white oliphaunt" At the end of 'The Black Gate is Closed' Frodo says: "I wish we had a thousand oliphaunts with Gandalf on a white one at their head" Why does Frodo say "white one", since last he knew, Gandalf was Grey, not White? __________________ For forty days and forty nights They rode through red blood to the knee And they saw neither sun nor moon But heard the roaring of the sea

02-17-2004, 03:01 AM	#2
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,430	Because white is awesome. __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

02-17-2004, 05:37 AM	#3
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,535	I would imagine 'white' so as to be distinguishable from the other, grey oliphaunts. Frodo apparently recognizes Gandalf as an unusual person, deserving of an unusual mount. Even more interesting, he recognizes Gandalf as the leader of Middle-earth's opposition to Sauron - higher than Aragorn, though the latter is designated king. __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

02-17-2004, 06:03 AM	#5
Angry Brandybuck Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Wotton-on-the-Edge Posts: 86	Imagine insuring an Oliphaunt anyway! I suppose you wouldn't have to worry about Fire and Theft... I think Kronos was right with the whole opposite to black thing. Or maybe Tolkien got himself all muddled as to who knew what about who? Thats unlikely as the publishers probably had an army of monkeys chained to desks trained to check for any discrepancies in the text. __________________ The pain of war cannot exceed the woe of aftermath, The drums will shake the castle wall, the ring wraiths ride in black, Ride on.

02-17-2004, 08:44 AM	#6
Kransha Ubiquitous Urulóki Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: The port of Mars, where Famine, Sword, and Fire, leash'd in like hounds, crouch for employment Posts: 747	I think it's the anti-evil thing going on there. He didn't know Gandalf was White now, but he obviously wanted this magical Oliphaunt parade to be flashy and aesthetically pleasing (not that it could actually happen). He just chose white because it seemed like an appropriate color for a mumak other than grey. __________________ "What mortal feels not awe/Nor trembles at our name, Hearing our fate-appointed power sublime/Fixed by the eternal law. For old our office, and our fame," -Aeschylus, Song of the Furies

02-17-2004, 05:54 AM	#4
Kronos Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: England Posts: 47	And because White is usually seen as the opposite to Black which was Sauron’s motif. Plus the cost of insurance will usually be lower on a white vehicle.

02-17-2004, 07:10 PM	#8
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Or... Frodo had one of his nifty prophetic dreams, in which he dreamed about Gandalf in white robes. Heck, if he dreamed about him (Gandalf) being on Orthanc, surely the pressures of being in Mordor could have forced him to have another semi-prophetic or clairvoyant dream. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

02-17-2004, 09:22 PM	#9
Secret Fire Animated Skeleton Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Oregon State University Posts: 47	Frodo did see Gandald in white in teh mirror of Galadriel, but he was not sure if it was Gandalf or Sarumon, but the coloation is not the issue here, technically, if we were to be keeping track, Frodo does not know that Gandalf is even alive, so it is all just a wish. __________________ Say my name and I'm gone, who am I?

02-18-2004, 03:27 PM	#11
Firefoot Illusionary Holbytla Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 7,576	I think that it is because a white oliphaunt would be distinguishing, and also becuase white is seen as the color of good. Also, white is one of the few colors that makes sense. What could Frodo say? "I wish we had a thousand oliphaunts with Gandalf on a blue one at their head"? That doesn't make sense. The distinguishing colors that you are left with are probably black, brown, and white. And for JRRT's purposes, white worked best. Though I suppose he could have been tying it in because Gandalf was the White, even though Frodo didn't know that.