New ME weapons?

[Dark-Caranthir]

Why couldn't the Free Peoples, have gained knowledge of how to make fireworks from Gandalf, then used them as weapons against Sauron.
They could have been used with arrowheads attached to their heads, a much more accurate arrow, also it could have been fired by people with much less strength.
It would disorientate those who were not prepared for them, aka. the orcs and other servants of Sauron.
It would burn skin and blind, perhaps if mixed with other substances.
And if they knew how to make fireworks with gunpowder, couldn't they have made more advanced weapons such as cannon and rifles.

[ September 22, 2002: Message edited by: Dark-Caranthir ]

[burrahobbit]

It would have been too anachronistic.

[Ransom]

The Chinese used very basic rockets in combat, and they didn't help. Most of the time, they merely scared the horses/troops of their opponents. At best, a lucky shot would kill someone. At worst, the rockets would explode prematurly.

[bombur]

Have to agree with ransom. Attaching arrowheads to rockets is unworkable. They were aimed by the Chineese at general direction of something big. One cannot hit a man with such. They wre incendiary weapon mostly used in sieges or by ships and not in open battlefield and even in such limited use traditional catapults and trbuchets were rather more efective. And the poeple of middle earth clearly are already using gunpowder to do demolitions in sieges. But that is not so simple affair either.

Also It might be interresting to note that gunpowder is not the only requirement to inventing artillery and I think the people of ME might lack the other... I mean has anyone noted bronze being used there? Especially in large quantities? One can FORGE almost every practical tool they need and they had iron from the start. Unfortunatley casting iron is more complex then one might think and was invented suprisingly late. With the dawn of factory sized steelmills I'd say. Primitive cannonbarrels wall needs to be some two-three inch or so thick to contain the gunpowder explosion. They were historically casted. First of bronze, then at latter era of iron.


JH

[bombur]

Ps. they propably did have the technic requirements for primitive hangrenade though.

JH

[gayare'dion]

the chinese, also had landmines, very early, and they were fighting with swords. so if it was in lord of the rings, it wouldnt really affect the fantasy aspect of it

[Elenna]

It would take away some of the heroism. I mean, if the Free Peoples could just blow up Barad-dur, what's the point of having an epic battle?

I also agree with burrahobbit - even if theoretically it could have happened, it would seem very anachronistic.

[bombur]

There is also the practical-tactical side as referred to by gayaredion and myself and ransom.

Fact is that historically, practically and tactically things that go ka-boom are not automatically more efficient then things that dont. Mongol composite bows had many times more penetration and range then first few centuries worth non rifled muskets.

Hand grenade saw wide use only after development or rifled weaponry had necessiated trenches and bunkers which in turn necessiated it. Hand granade will be little use in battlefield if there are practically only two ranges at which you encounter the enemy... at swordpoint or at arrows reach. Even modern versions cannot be used in such conditions. Far less burning fuse blackpowder grenades that were considered pretty much a specialist weapon used by troops perhaps best compared to todays assault pioneers, the grenadiers... and theese of cource at least Saruman seemed to field in Helms deep...

Theese things have ways of moving in complex interefecting cycles. If cannons have not been fielded, then likely no gunpowder weapons are practical/necessary exept in very specialised roles. For example in feudal Japan there were muskets, but they ended up becoming rather a sniper weapon as the rest of the elements in the whole picture of the gunpowderarmed battlefield was not present.


JH


PS. did I mention that ME most likely does not have tech for drilling musketbarrels... much less rifling them.

[ September 22, 2002: Message edited by: bombur ]

[steve]

We can not froget the fact that we do not even know if Gandalf's fireworks were made from gunpowder, after all he was an Istari and a Maiar, the fireworks could very well have been of a magical nature.

[Rosseiliantiel]

I always thought they were magical, otherwise more would probably have been seen of them. Besids, what good would some fireworks do against a disembodied eyeball? (that was a joke).
I think that Tolkien probably had quite enough guns, bombs, grenades and such destruction in real life, and part of the charm of ME is that it doesn't have any of that.

[doug*platypus]

Judging from past Guy Fawkes' Days (sorry to the Americans out there for any obscurity), fireworks would be the perfect weapon to use against an eye!

I've always wondered how exactly Gandalf did make his fireworks. Tolkien referred to his fireworks as one of his innate abilities as an Istar and as the holder of Narya (the Ring of Fire), the Kindler. The FOTR movie seemed to portray them as something like fireworks in our world, although the fact that Gandalf can send one shooting off the back of his cart for the kids hints at something special.

The other (or possibly the only) use of gunpowder in the books is by Saruman at Helm's Deep. Devilry of Orthanc, they call it, and rightly enough. Chivalrous knights like Aragorn and Éomer would have been none too keen to see the development of gunpowder. It is a technology which is shown as having evil connotations. For the good guys to use it would undermine their credibility - they may as well have just used the Ring.

[Bill Ferny]

The other (or possibly the only) use of gunpowder in the books is by Saruman at Helm's Deep. Devilry of Orthanc, they call it, and rightly enough. Chivalrous knights like Aragorn and Éomer would have been none too keen to see the development of gunpowder. It is a technology which is shown as having evil connotations. For the good guys to use it would undermine their credibility - they may as well have just used the Ring.

So are you assuming that technology equals evil? That seems to be the prevalent interpretation out there, and I wouldn’t be that quick to dismiss it. However, equating the one ring to technology (something that National Geographic did without much thought) might be pushing the theory a bit beyond its limit. I see Saruman’s use of (supposed) gun powder, and his “industrialization” of Isengard fitting the technology = evil theory in that technology is seen as an instrument for the corrupted, yet weak minded. In other words, technology is a dirty trick for those who lack the character to fight fair (Romanticism at its height). The depths of Sauron’s or Melkor’s evil, and thus the one ring, however, went much deeper than mere technology or its use.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

What about the rivers of fire that Morgoth sent forth, before the Dagor Bragollach? Another example of 'technology' in M-E?