Other Mearas?

[Orcrist]

Is there any mention of the Mearas other than Shadowfax? Does Theoden possess some?

[lore_master]

Theoden had one, Snowmane, every other king had one, but most are not named,
also I think Eomer's horse, firefott was a Mearas also.

the most famous mearas other than shadowfax, is Eorl the youngs horse, Frealof (i think)

[Orcrist]

so are you saying that only the Rohirrim had Mearas? Is it also true that the Rohirrim gave horses to sauron in tribute

[Firefoot]

Yes, only the Rohirrim had Mearas. The first was Felaróf, who was Eorl's horse. Eorl's father was trying to ride Felaróf and died when he was thrown, so Eorl demanded that Felaróf allow him to ride him as weregild. The Mearas were Felaróf's descendants. Until Gandalf, they would allow no others than the Kings of the Mark and their sons to ride them. Therefore, Snowmane was one of the Mearas, but Éomer's horse Firefoot (that's me ) wasn't. They were long-lived, living as long as men, and very valiant and strong.

And as to your second question, the answer is in Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli's first conversation with Éomer:

"Then you do not pay tribute to Sauron?" asked Gimli.
"We do not and we never have," said Éomer with a flash in his eyes. "though it comes to my ears that that lie has been told. Some years ago the Lord of the Black Land wished to purchase horses of us at great price, but we refused him, for he puts beasts to evil use. Then he sent plundering Orcs, and thy carry off what they can, choosing always the black horses: few of these now are left. For that reason our feud with the Orcs is bitter."

[Orcrist]

i'm guessing you have read all the tolkien books alot firefoot. am i right

[Finwe]

Generally speaking, Orcrist, it's often a rather intelligent choice to read all of the books.

Since only the Kings of Rohan (and most likely their very near kin) were allowed to ride the Mearas, there had to have been more than one. Most likely Firefoot and Windfola (Eomer's horse and Eowyn's horse, respectively) were Mearas, or had some Mearas blood in them. Snowmane, Theoden's horse, and his mother, Lightfoot, were most likely Mearas. And, of course, Shadowfax was one of the Mearas. Already you have five names, and there were most likely quite a few more. Otherwise, they couldn't have maintained a viable, healthy breeding population. Too much inbreeding would have weakened the horses.

[Mariska Greenleaf]

the most famous mearas other than shadowfax, is Eorl the youngs horse, Frealof (i think)

You mean Felaróf (=very valiant, or very strong). If I'm not mistaken, he was like the ancestor for all other mearas.

[Roccotari Eldandil]

Mariska, I think that somewhere in the books (I don't know where--don't have them with me) it says that the Rohirrim know or believe that Orome's horse (Nahar?)was the foundation sire of the Mearas.

[Mariska Greenleaf]

Well, the horse Nahar was without a doubt one of the most powerful and exceptional horses ever described in ME, but I cannot find any reference that this would be the ancestor of all Mearas, well at least not in those words.
Oromë and his steed were known to the horse-loving people of Rohan, who claimed that the Mearas had ancestors brought out of the west by Oromë himself.
So, maybe you could make the conclusion that Nahar was the ancestor, but

Felaróf was a very remarkable horse indeed. It is even recorded that he could understand the speech of Men. He gave rise in turn to a race of wonderful horses, the Mearas, who according to tradition could only be ridden by the Lords of the Mark, Eorl's descendants. It was from this line that Gandalf's horse Shadowfax came, making him a descendant of Felaróf himself.

(The Encyclopedia of Arda)

Maybe there are other sources who can give some more information?

[Silmiel of Imladris]

After reading the posts am I right is assuming that the Mearas is a blood line that has been kept very pure over time. This still goes on today where a horse of a certain blood is worth more. The better the blood line the better the horse is something I don't believe in for a mixed breed is just as good. Just look at Hildalgo.

Hay did shadowfax go with Gandalf to the undying lands or not. If not what happened to him. Are you sure firefoot had Meras blood I hope so but is it mentioned anywhere in the book. Sorry if I am waisting time I am not that great at exact Bloodlines.

[Sharkû]

Yes, Letter 268 tells us: "I think Shadowfax certainly went with Gandalf [across the Sea], though this is not stated." (Letters, #268)

Firefoot being of the Mearas is speculation, but likely speculation.

thanks for that sharku

[symestreem]

...And upon the quay beside a great grey horse stood a figure robed in all white awaiting them...

Yet Shadowfax's coat

shine[s] like silver

Legolas calls him

a very great horse

So was the horse that Gandalf had at the quay Shadowfax?
Also, why could Shadowfax alone of all free animals withstand the fear of the Nazgul? Was he the mightiest of the Mearas?

[Cibbwin]

And what about Windfola?

symestreem, I'm not sure if he was "mightiest", but don't forget that Gandalf had Narya. Perhaps it kindled Shadowfax's heart, as well?

[symestreem]

This was in ths Sil.

Of those horses many of the sire came from Valinor, and they were given to Fingolfin by Maedhros in atonement for his losses...

Perhaps the Mearas were elven in origin? If not, could we expect the elven horses to be the equals of the Mearas, coming as they both did from Valinor? Perhaps the elvish horses would even be slightly better, because they would have been bred with each other, while the Mearas might have sometimes been bred with other horses.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Was he the mightiest of the Mearas?

Perhaps...

[Theoden: ]There is none like to Shadowfax. In him one of the mighty steeds of old has returned.

(LotR III 6)

Probably Felaróf himself was the mentioned "mighty steeds of old."

Do the mearas undergo reincarnation? Or perhaps had the same doom as Elves?

[symestreem]

That's quite interesting if you note the king's choice of wording. He says returned. This implies that the horses have dwindled in quality since a certain point in time before, probably the taming of the first horse. But why would the quality of the horses have decreased? I'm not a horse expert, but if you breed horses with other good horses, won't you usually get better horses? This is interesting because Tolkien is echoing his general theme of decay here; even the horses are not what they once were. There's another line like that in the Appendices.

... but in Elessar Telcontir the dignity of the kings of old was renewed.

Why does Tolkien incorporate the theme of decay so much? Numenor decays and falls; the Shire decays through progress. Did Tolkien, too, feel that nothing now or in the future could ever be better than what had already been? I read somewhere that growing up near Birmingham gave him a dislike of "progress" and "industrialization"; this is evident in the Shire.
Or does the answer somehow lie with the elves? As the elves fade, does their absence diminish the "goodness" of the world? Or is it the theory of entropy, heat-death, that the Universe is slowing down? In Middle-earth, this would be interpreted as that the tendency of man is to deteriorate; that there will always be another evil, and that all we can do is fight the present one, but that each victory over evil will still diminish the world a bit.
Does this make any sense at all?


Nilpaurion, if you talk about equine reincarnation then you have to debate the point of whether the horses have souls. Certainly they are intelligent, but do they have souls? Or is there something there besides a soul that can be reincarnated? Or perhaps because of the horse-centered culture of the Rohirrim, they believe that any mighty steed is a reincarnation of a previous one. That would indicate that the Rohirrim believe in the theory of decay, that nothing now can be as good as it was before; this either makes them rather astute observers or very nostalgic. Or, they have low self-esteem (or are humble) and think that nothing they do could be better than what their ancestors have done. This may be, considering their ancestor reverence (not worship).
We started out talking about horses, didn't we? Sorry.

[Firefoot]

But why would the quality of the horses have decreased?

Well, the breeding stock of these Mearas probably started out relatively small, a few herds perhaps. These horses bred together, and then they probably peaked, perhaps around Felaróf's time, and maybe the horses didn't get better, and while they were still Mearas, they were not as mighty as the horses of old. These would be like Snowmane. Then these horses probably interbred with horses of lesser quality, which would still be of high blood, but not completely Mearas (Maybe where you get horses like Firefoot and Windfola?). Shadowfax must have received all the recessive genes from the mighty horses of old and would have been like them.

Compare it to the Dúnedain: their race was lessened because those of the line of Isildur married with those of lesser lineage, which resulted in shorter lifespan, which was why "the dignity of the kings of old was renewed" in Aragorn: in this respect Aragorn is comparable to Shadowfax. Both were the mightiest of their line for a very long time.

[Elianna]

This isn't related to resent posts, but still on topic:

Shadowfax went in the White Ship with Gandalf, of course. I saw that myself. I also saw Legolas let his horse run free back to Rohan from Isengard. Mr. Meriadoc says he does not know how many horses were lost; but there are more than ever in Rohan now, because no one steals them any longer...

Histories of M-E vol. 9. Sam's writing notes for the Red Book in this exert. The horses lost are the black horses stolen by the orcs mentioned by Firefoot.

Also pretaining to the original question: I don't think anyone's ever "possessed" a Mearas. Those noble horses only allow a few to ride them, I don't think that they're possessed....wait, "faithful servant, yet master's bane" servant, master, nevermind.

[Osse]

this is probably in one of my books... just that they are in boxes in australia! so pleae excuse me for asking it here...

When did the mearas 'lose' the ability to speak? or was it just Eorl's horse who could communicate with Men?


Thanks

[Firefoot]

I'm pretty sure that only Felaróf could understand Men. I don't remember anything about any other Mearas being able to do so. And also, Felaróf wasn't able to speak to Men, he could just understand their language, if my understanding is correct.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

I think it was Tree beard that said at one point that all things can speak, but with there own tongs (Aka, the talking Trees, Old man willow, the badgers in "the adventures of Tom Bombadill ect). It is likely that the Horses had there own tong, therefore it is not beyond the realms of possibility that one of the Mearas at least could, with time, understand or comprehend the tong of men.
As has been said, the Mearas would only allow kings of the mark to ride them.

Perhaps Sahdowfax still had some pride about the tradition his kin had, and that is why he made Gandalf ride him bare back. Or did all have to ride the Mearas bare back.... I'll have to check! (Digs through large collection of books)

[symestreem]

Considering the elvish gift of linguistics, is it outside the realm of possibility that an elven rider and a Mearas (we'll say part-Mearas to meet Tolkien's canon) would be able to communicate with each other? Legolas talked to his non-Mearas horse.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

My point exactly, symestreem, It would make more sense to do so. If The Eldar, with there linguistic talent, could teach the horses the languages of Westerness and others, that way there would be more understanding between horse and rider, and a horse could tell someone to get off them if they did not wish them to ride them.

Besides, Orome may have thought his horse to comprehend the tong that he used (would that be Valinorian or something like that?) And Nahar being the father of the Mearas could have passed on the knowledge to his offspring, who passed it to theirs and so on. Plus the fact that the Mearas had to breed with other types of horse, the linguistic skills they had may have passed into other breeds also. If this is so, then this may explain why the Rohirum had such a close bond with there horses, Maybe, even if the Rohirum were not aware of the fact that the horses could understand them, that would be the reason behind the amassing faithfulness of the rohirum's horses.

[galadriel'smaiden]

Excuse` Moi, I have a question...

Were the Mearas simply an incredible breed of horse, like an Andalusion or Appaloosa? Or were they...you know, something else? Like how Elves and Men were similair in appearance but really very different? I am relatively forgetful, I probably read about this then forgot

Peace

[symestreem]

The Mearas were a great breed of horse that lived as long as men, but there is speculation that they were descended from Valinorian horses. That would certainly make them special.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

You don’t have to speak French to us! We're not French, nor are We Tourists!
(Don’t take that personally, I'm not a fan of the French language, We fight wars against the French and... sorry I’m rambling)


Any way, I think that the Mearas are sort of a special breed of Horses. Seeing as they were bred from a horse from Valinor. So, if Huan (The Hound Of Valinor) had survived and had offspring, they may have become a special breed of wolf.

[Osse]

Huan was defineately nothing like a wolf... in fact, he was the complete opposite; a wolf hound. And i distinctly remember in one of the tales of Rohan that Eorl's horse could 'understand' the speech of Men... I always believed not only could he understand it, but was able to communicate, either in speech or other ways. Eorl rode him without bridle if i remember and would speek his commands/wishes... much like the Elvish riding style.

The Mearas were still horses... just... well special. Superhorses yes, but still horses. Nothing at all like men and elves <hint of sarcasm>

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Super horses? I can see what you mean, although they didn’t have anything distinctly different in appearance to normal horses, like say, an enormous growth, that would probably be the best way of describing them.

I assume that the mane difference would be that they would have longer endurance, run faster and perhaps live longer. SO I think that comparing Horses and Mearas to Elves and Men is a good analogy. Although it is rather easy for people to tell between Elves and men, as Elves have leaf shaped ears and are fair of face. But In Lotr an elf says that "To other sheep, sheep may look different" so that may be the case. Or could it be a case of "Sheep get like Shepard and Shepard’s get like sheep, but it is closer with horses and Mearas"?

Perhaps the Mearas looked some how different, being descended from a horse of Valinor that would be likely. As for Huan, what I meant was that If he had had offspring they would have become a new form of wolf, or wolf hound if you like. One could argue that Wolf and Wolfhound are perhaps as different as Elves and men also!

[Firefoot]

I think there must have been some physical difference. Not obvious, perhaps, but to someone who knew horses well they would be able to tell them apart relatively easily. For example, Legolas's "But there is another that strides ahead: a very great horse. I have not seen his like before." What made Shadowfax (and the other Mearas) great horses that you could tell just by looking at them? Perhaps they were larger, sleeker, and faster. Maybe it was just in their bearing, the way they acted. For myself, I think it is a combination of all of the above. They had all the attributes of normal horses, but they were mightier, stronger, more "powerful" horses.

[symestreem]

Perhaps Shadowfax was taking longer strides. This would account for his being faster. Or, perhaps he looked less winded than the others.
I'm not horse person, but isn't height in hands a measure of the quality? Then, the height of Shadowfax could also have been taken into consideration.
Remember also, the other two horses were saddled and bridled. Shadowfax was neither, but still came to Gandalf. There probably were not many horses that had that kind of agreement with their rider, and it suggests high intelligence. That kind of narrows down the field of possibilities.

[ArathorofBarahir]

How are the Mearas different from normal horses?