Hurin and despair

[Morwen Tindomerel]

"Findegil, its maybe not something to get into, but I think if you look into it at all, you'll see that torture ALWAYS works. Sorry, but the human body is incredibly sensitive to pain, & also to psychological torture. EVERYONE breaks. They just do. Unless they die first."

Actually this isn't true - read the accounts of the Sixteenth and Seventeenth century martyrs sometime. But it's immaterial anyway. We are talking about Middle Earth here not the real world.

And it is a mistake to assume that every act of malice in Beleriand is directly attributable to Morgoth. People, Elves and Men, are perfectly capable of being nasty, petty and vicious on their own.

[Kuruharan]

I wonder how much Morgoth did fear Turgon & the power of Gondolin - His forces destroyed the city in less than a day....If Morgoth was REALLY afraid of the power of Gondolin, he simply wouldn't have played with Hurin for so long....If Morgoth was truly afraid of the power of Gondolin, he would have continued with the torture, not stopped, until Hurin had either told everything he knew, or had died in the process.

Morgoth was not afraid of the military strength of Gondolin; that wasn't it at all. What he was afraid of (without knowing it) was that Tuor and Idril (Turgon's daughter) were going to poop out Earendil, who would bring down the wrath of the Valar.

To cite the words of the sub-creator himself...

and of Gondolin he [Morgoth] knew nothing, and the thought of Turgon troubled him the more.
p. 193

Now the thought of Morgoth dwelt ever upon Turgon; for Turgon had escaped him, of all his foes that one whom he most desired to take or to destroy...Morgoth feared Turgon; for of old in Valinor his eye had lighted upon him, and whenever he drew near a shadow had fallen on his spirit, foreboding that in some time that lay hidden, from Turgon ruin should come to him.
p. 240

I trust that clears up any confusion there may exist about the feelings that Morgoth held about Turgon.

And about your points about torture, as Morwen already said this is not the primary world that we are discussing, and Hurin is not your ordinary man.

We have the story the way that Tolkien told it and in that story Morgoth tried to daunt Hurin with his eye, put him in slow torture for months, and ultimately put a fearsome curse on Hurin's family. Hurin did not break. Aside from killing him, there was nothing more that Morgoth could do to him.

And as I have said all along, you are overemphasizing the "toying with Hurin" aspect of the episode.

[The Saucepan Man]

But it's immaterial anyway. We are talking about Middle Earth here not the real world.

And about your points about torture, as Morwen already said this is not the primary world that we are discussing, and Hurin is not your ordinary man.

Absolutely. In a world of Dark Lords, Dragons and curses, there is no reason why resistance to torture should not be possible. This is a heroic Age, after all, and Hurin is one of the most heroic of them all. He wasn't known as the Steadfast for nothing.

It seems to me, in any event, that he did suffer unimaginable torture over a great period of time. For some 30 years, he was made to watch his family systematically being destroyed. As I said earlier, I can (as a husband and father) think of nothing worse to have to endure. And yet Hurin never cracked.

[davem]

First, I can't see anything in any of the writings which imply that Morgoth could have ANY concept of Earendel. How could he possibly?

I still haven't seen ANY evidence that Morgoth was TRULY afraid of his oponents at this time. If he was he would have gone on torturing Hurin till he was dead or till he gave up the information Morgoth wanted.

Finally, Hurin was human. Human's are human, whatever the situation, or whatever the time period they live in. Extended torture creates psychological as well as physical damage. Morgoth also had magic - he could manipulate what people saw & believed - as we see with Beren's companion (who's name I can't think of.

Sorry, I read/understand the story differently from the rest of you. I understand Morgoth's motives differently. I'm not saying my way is right - in fact all I've really been doing is putting forward my own view.

[Lalaith]

Davem, don't apologise! It wouldn't be such an interesting debate if we all agreed, would it?

[Kuruharan]

Alas, I'm afraid that I was misunderstood.

First, I can't see anything in any of the writings which imply that Morgoth could have ANY concept of Earendel. How could he possibly?

I did not say that Morgoth was directly aware of Earendil.

I said that Tolkien said that Morgoth believed that ruin would come to him from Turgon, as in fact it did. That ruin happened to take the form of Earendil. I initially rendered this in slightly different terms, but then I provided my backing for it.

I still haven't seen ANY evidence that Morgoth was TRULY afraid of his oponents at this time.

Again I quote the man himself...

...Morgoth feared Turgon...
p. 240

That is a flat statement of fact in the context of the story. You may disagree with it to your heart's content, but you will have to take the matter up with Tolkien, he wrote the story.

If he was he would have gone on torturing Hurin till he was dead or till he gave up the information Morgoth wanted.

That is your interpretation of the circumstances, which tends to go against certain statements actually made in the book.

Human's are human, whatever the situation, or whatever the time period they live in. Extended torture creates psychological as well as physical damage.

Yes, but this is not our world.

Morgoth also had magic...

An example of one of the ways in which Middle Earth is not our world.

There are some things that have to be accepted in the context of the story. It is part of the suspension of disbelief.

Sorry, I read/understand the story differently from the rest of you. I understand Morgoth's motives differently. I'm not saying my way is right - in fact all I've really been doing is putting forward my own view.

You can, and will, believe whatever you wish. However, judging from some of the things that you have said, there were certain aspects of the text that you had given insufficient attention too. I am trying to point out some of them and explain some of the ramifications of these passages so that you can have a more complete understanding of the story.

Davem, don't apologise! It wouldn't be such an interesting debate if we all agreed, would it?

Especially not on fun threads like this where not many of us have agreed on much of anything.

[ May 21, 2003: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[davem]

I'm uncomforatble with the idea of Men in ME being TOO different from ourselves. I relate to them simply because I don't see them as being that different from us.

Secondly, I still can't see Morgoth's actions as implying real fear - he is too casual in his attempt to get information from Hurin. He simply takes too long, if he's really afraid. Also, while he may have been afraid of Turgon in the past, was he still so afraid after the Nirnaith, when Turgon had run away, leaving Hurin & Huor to their fates (as Morgoth would have seen it)? Without knowledge of Earendel, he could only have thought of Turgon as a military threat, & as I said, he was convinced the VALAR weren't going to intervene.

He was then at his most powerful, his ememies defeated & scattered. Also, the fact that the Elves, in their accounts, say Morgoth was afraid of Turgon, doesn't make it true. If you were reading the Sil as a historical account, & you knew it was a 'biased' account, if you just took the stated facts of Morgoths behaviour & left aside the 'interpretations' of the writers, would you really see Morgoth as a frightened being, desperate to get information about his enemies location to save his skin? None of his ACTUAL behaviour makes me think that.

Finally, I know this is a fun debate - I hope everyone else does. I'd hate anyone to take anything I say as anything more.

[Findegil]

For what purpose other than getting information of Turgons city would Morgoth give the order to take Húrin alive? It was a very expensive order. Húrin made a great last stand and killed a lot of enemy's. Of course Morgoth had Orcs and Trolls in great numbers, but the relative slow success in the war after the Nirneath Arnoediad showed that he had suffer great looses there.

I do not believe that Morgoth had any fear of military actions of Turgon. But that doesn't mean he had no fear at all. He had heard the music of the Ainur to its end. So he did know that he was doomed in the end even when he denied it. And he did know very well that his first defeat (as he clearly would see the downfall of Utumno) had been brought about by Manwe, the chief instrument of Ilúvatars second theme. And the children of Ilúvatar entered with the third theme.
So taking the view that what the Elves told us in their books is not without a bit of truth lying behind it, we could assume that since they had been in contact with Morgoth in Valinor it is not completely unthinkable that the Elves had marked a special tension between Morgoth and Turgon.
Thinking about the hole story in the end and how desperately Morgoth tried to bring Turgon down (he sent an army that was sufficient for a big war only to attack a single city - one Dragon only was send against Nargothrond and no Balrog, but a host of dragons and at least a couple of Balrogs against Gondolin!) we can very well assume that interest in the knowledge of Húrin about Gondolin was the reason for taking him alive, and the reason to torture him.
What we know about the strive of Morgoth with Húrin and Húrins further stay in Angband, we do not only know through Húrin himself. Slaves as Gwindor did even know about it. And did report it when they escaped.

The account is clearly tainted by its trading through the elves and the composer (a man of the House of Hador how managed to fly to the mouth of Sirion). But if you do not deny it at all as being only a fair tale (which it actually is [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]), you most admit that some bit of truth may lie behind any motive shown in it.

Respectfully
Findegil

[davem]

I don't think Melkor was paying much attention to the what the music was prophecying. Also, not being able to concieve of Earendel, what else could Morgoth have feared from Turgon, other than military force? Why else would he have used such force. I think Morgoth saw Gondolin as a possible threat, but only a vague one. He is just as likely to have used devastating force simply to show off.

Morgoth's behaviour just doesn't make sense to me unless he really is laid back about the whole thing, or at least feels he has plenty of time to take over ME.

[Kuruharan]

davem: You can think what you like about the issue, but the text flatly states that Morgoth feared Turgon because he feared that "ruin" would come to him from Turgon. I don’t see how it could possibly be any clearer than that.

If you were reading the Sil as a historical account, & you knew it was a 'biased' account, if you just took the stated facts of Morgoths behaviour & left aside the 'interpretations' of the writers
--
The account is clearly tainted by its trading through the elves and the composer

Here we have a pretty knotty issue. How much of the story can we accept as being fact in its own context?

Granted, the story is couched as being an Elvish history of the wars. Also granted, Tolkien could and did disagree from some of the things that his characters said. In the Silmarillion there is an example where the belief is raised that Orcs were bred from Elves. Tolkien changed his mind about this, and so that passage in the books became part of the "Elvish" interpretation of the world that was not wholly correct. There are a few other examples of this in the stories.

However, the statements relating to Morgoth’s fear of Turgon do not seem to fall into that category.

I cannot recall that there is ever a breath of writing anywhere in all of Tolkien’s works that indicates Tolkien ever doubted Morgoth feared that Turgon (or his family) were somehow going to be involved in his ultimate demise (although I am open if anybody wants to point out something that I missed.) But other than that, there is just no reason to doubt it.

Yes, the story is supposedly written by Elvish historians, but it also contains the Sub-Creator’s thoughts about his own story. If we are wanting to discuss the works of Tolkien as we have them, then we have to accept the fact that he sometimes means what he writes about Middle Earth. Otherwise it is Fan Fiction and not Tolkien.

There is no place that indicates Tolkien changed his mind about this issue, so there is no reason to doubt it. You may continue to disagree about it, but you can’t deny that the book says the words "Morgoth feared Turgon." If we want to stick with what Tolkien wrote, that is what we have to accept.

And, just when you thought that the thread had drifted off into a debate on whether the texts say what they mean…

Saucepan Man:

Like a criminal returning to the scene of the crime, I feel a need to go back to this issue of limitations, restrictions, and encumbrances on Free Will.

The way I see it, the curse operates by bringing the external factors, which would normally define the exercise of free will, together in such away that they effectively limit, and ultimately negate, the subject’s free will. Yes, choices may freely be made in response to individual situations, but circumstances will ultimately conspire against the subject so as to seal his or her fate.

As an aside, I’m not sure that just because things turned out a certain way that it represents a negation of Free Will. However, I have not clearly formed my thought on this subject, so I may return to it in a later post.

Back to limitations/restrictions vs. encumbrances. In my mind these do not represent the same thing.

I think of limits and restrictions as being bounds or walls around the actions of the character that absolutely prevent said character from acting outside of the bounds of the restriction in question, in this case the Curse on Hurin’s family. What I understand you to mean is that the curse set up a fixed "box" around Hurin’s family, outside of which they could not operate. Is that what you mean?

What I meant by the term "encumbrance" was more along the lines of a burden weighing down the family and making it more likely that their actions would have disastrous consequences. However, I don’t think that is a limit that fixed them inside the parameters of something that they could not act outside of, it strikes me as being more of a propensity.

So, were these two different viewpoints that we were presenting, or were we saying the same thing in different ways? Or are we splitting hairs about a very abstract concept?

Any thoughts?

[The Saucepan Man]

davem:

Morgoth's behaviour just doesn't make sense to me unless he really is laid back about the whole thing, or at least feels he has plenty of time to take over ME.

But we are only talking about 30 years here, which in terms of an immortal being such as Morgoth who had terrorised ME for thousands of years, is not a great deal of time. It might be seen as akin to a human torturer leaving his subject to suffer for a day or so. And yet it would, no doubt have seemed an eternity to Hurin, who nevertheless remained steadfast throughout. When that ploy didn't work (after only a relatively short time to Morgoth's reckoning), he set Hurin free to see if that might bring him any closer to his desire (locating Gondolin), which it in fact did.

Kuruharan:

As an aside, I’m not sure that just because things turned out a certain way that it represents a negation of Free Will.

Well, it's not a negation of the free will to act in response to particular given situations. Rather it is a negation of the free will to affect the ultimate outcome. I see this as being how the Doom pronounced by Mandos on the exiled Noldor (also referred to as a Curse) worked:

Tears unnumbered ye shall shed ... On the House of Feanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that follow them it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well ...

Now. although the actions of the exiled Noldor were not controlled and they were able to determine their own responses to individual situations, the fate pronounced upon them by Mandos nevertheless came true. Circumstances conspired against them to bring this about. Even if you take it as a prophecy, they are nevertheless unable to avoid its outcome, however much they struggle to escape it. I see the Curse pronounced by Morgoth on Hurin's kin in much the same way. It sets in train a chain of events that leads to its ultimate conclusion, namely their utter physical and mental destruction.

I think of limits and restrictions as being bounds or walls around the actions of the character that absolutely prevent said character from acting outside of the bounds of the restriction in question,

I don't see the Curse as being a limitation on the actions of Hurin's Hini, such as might (to use an extreme example) be presented by their incarceration in a doorless cell. They (like the exiled Noldor) were free to determine their individual responses to particular situations. But the situations presented to them, and their responses to those situations, were always fated to lead them to their doom. They were unable to alter the outcome.

What I meant by the term "encumbrance" was more along the lines of a burden weighing down the family and making it more likely that their actions would have disastrous consequences.

Well, it depends on how you say Morgoth's Curse is making this "more likely". If you are saying that it acts by influencing their decisions or emphasising their character failings, making it more likely that they will act in this or that way, then I disagree. But if you are saying that fate is conspiring (through the situations that they are presented with) to increase the likelihood that their decisions have the disastrous consequences that they in fact do have, then we are probably:

... saying the same thing in different ways

Except that I would go so far as to say that fate was conspiring to guarantee this outcome.

Either way, we are most probably:

... splitting hairs about a very abstract concept

But isn't that what this forum is for? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Kuruharan]

I see you found your saucepans!!!

(Now if only I could find an avatar that I liked...)

But the situations presented to them, and their responses to those situations, were always fated to lead them to their doom. They were unable to alter the outcome.

-and-

But if you are saying that fate is conspiring (through the situations that they are presented with) to increase the likelihood that their decisions have the disastrous consequences that they in fact do have

I think that I understand you better now.

And I would say that it is actually a mixture of both Morgoth's will dragging them in a certain direction and circumstances conspiring against them. So we were sort of talking about the same thing and sort of not.

Earlier you mentioned the Doom of Mandos. I'm not sure that this is entirely a curse. I think that Prophesy is a better word for most of it, although there is a curse aspect to it. Much of what Mandos told them did not require the intervention of the Valar. I believe that it did not take a genius to foresee that the Noldor could not defeat Morgoth. This being the case they would inevitably, through force of circumstances, be brought down to the wretched state that Mandos foretold. It was also fairly easy to see that the Oath of Feanor would inevitably lead to dissension, although this may be one place where the power of the Valar worked against them. I think that the main area where the actual curse comes in is in the closing of Valinor. This essentially sealed their fate.

So, the fact that the Noldor could not defeat Morgoth (which did not require the Valar to do anything), combined with the closing of Valinor (which was the primary action the Valar took), allowed circumstances to progress to their inevitable conclusion.

I think in this it is easier to see the different nature of the Elves. There was a greater inevitability to this situation than I feel was in the situation of Hurin and Company.

With the Hurin curse I think that the power of Morgoth played a greater role. This is not to say that circumstances were not important, but I think that the different nature of Man required that Morgoth's baneful influence be more strongly applied to ensure that things turned out as they did. The words "my thought shall weigh as a cloud of Doom" tends to make me believe this. So, I believe that it was a mixture of circumstance and Morgoth's influence.

However, and this is something obvious that I had not thought of until just now, but Morgoth was able to keep Hurin from dying so maybe he could remove the Free Will from his family...

[The Saucepan Man]

Now if only I could find an avatar that I liked...

Surely their must be some Dwarf and pet Dragon combo out there that takes your fancy ... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Much of what Mandos told them did not require the intervention of the Valar.

Although, of course, Hurin and his son did play their respective parts in the downfalls of Nargothrond and Gondolin. And their actions were not controlled or influenced by the Valar, although (in my theory at least) they were governed by fate.

So, I believe that it was a mixture of circumstance and Morgoth's influence.

Actually, I agree with you here. Morgoth's influence was there through the deployment of his forces, in particular Glaurung. But it is the combination of circumstances and Morgoth's intervention (through Glaurung) which I see as drawing them to their fate. Morgoth's direct intervention alone could not have acheived it.

[ May 22, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

[Lalaith]

Prophecies and curses,logically, *do* negate the concept of free will.
Regarding the importance of Turgon and Gondolin to Morgoth, re-reading the Fifth Battle chapter in the Sil I would say that not only was it hugely important but that everyone involved was aware of this. It was the whole point of the sacrifice of the men of Dor-lomin. And Huor even prophecises to Turgon, before the Fen of Serech, that "from you and from me a new star shall arise."
I'd also like to bring in a point related to the original title of the thread...
Earlier, somebody talked about Norse myth, and the idea of fighting evil even though it was pointless.But Hurin's battle cry, Aure enteluva, seems to me to be the essence of hope.
But the utterly bleak outcome of the tale of Hurin seems to imply that hope = hubris. Or is the tale intended as a contrast to the hope inherent in the line of Hurin's brother Huor?

[Kuruharan]

But the utterly bleak outcome of the tale of Hurin seems to imply that hope = hubris.

I don't think that's what it represents. Hope and hubris are two different things. I suppose that excessive hope could lead to hubris, but I don't think that the story is intended to imply that hope=hubris. I don't really think that the Tale of Hurin deals with hope in that particular way.

Or is the tale intended as a contrast to the hope inherent in the line of Hurin's brother Huor?

Possibly.

[Lord of Angmar]

I think that free will and prophecies/curses are separate entities in Middle-earth. While obviously the House of Hurin was cursed, it was not the curse that wrought Turin and Hurin's destiny, I believe, but the fact that all their actions were based on the knowledge that this curse existed. I think that the curse itself did not alter their destinies, but that through the lies of Morgoth and of Glaurung, and through their own actions which they took in efforts to avoid or put off the curse, their doom was wrought for them.

[alatar]

Note that this post may get icky, and so you might want to leave now.

Originally Posted by davem

Morwen has always struck me as too cold & 'stand offish'. It does make me wonder how much her husband & so are trying to 'live up' to her standards. Maybe we should have looked more deeply into Morwen's influence.

There something odd in Turin's and Morwen's relationship. Weren't other humans successfully raised by elven foster parents (Aragorn II)? Weren't other successful humans sundered from their mothers at an early age (Eowyn, Faramir, etc)? What of all of the nameless faceless orphans that eked out lives amidst all of the disasters and wars that made up life in Middle Earth?

What was so special about Turin, except that he was the son of Hurin the Cursed (which is yet another issue)?

I found this link that may be of some interest regarding Turin's relationship with Morwen. Note that it deals with human psychology and relationships and so may be more than you want to read. You can see this somewhat informative list pegs Turin:

Are YOU involved with a Mother-Bonded Man?

Does a man in your life ...

* obsess about his mother?
* acts as if women should serve him?
* cannot maintain a stable partnership?
* act like a child ... or like a tyrant ... or both?
* brag, lie and boast as he tries to be special?
* is a narcissist - he demands attention or he leaves?
* chase women - quantity not happiness is important?
* have few if any friends, and cannot commit to teamwork?
* does not care if he damages other people's relationships?
* do these things repeatedly but energetically deny them?
* avoid any form of coaching or counseling on these issues?

What effect did Morwen have on Turin's developing personality? Did she dote a little too much on Turin, using him as an emotional substitute for the missing Hurin? Could Turin not shake his feelings for his mother later in adolescence, making him maladaptive to normal relationships (i.e. Finduilas)? How did this relationship effect little Niënor? How was she 'broken' by a missing father, Turin and living life in the CoH days? Did, when the situation present itself, Turin find himself attracted to Niënor Níniel, as she represented something close to Morwen?

Cursed or not, Turin had psychological issues, and they revolve around mom. Morgoth may have cursed this family, but seemingly he needn't have done much, as they were pretty messed up to begin with.