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Old 01-18-2008, 03:52 PM   #1
MatthewM
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Lack of respect displayed by Gimli

I just noticed this recently - besides the fact that Gimli's character was highly tampered with in the films, and besides the fact that he stood on Balin's grave in Moria...there is another scene in which Gimli showed complete disrespect. It's in the scene "The Last Debate"...he is actually sitting on Denethor's vacant (although technically then Faramir's) throne! Unbelievable.

Why would PJ not care about showing some respect to the dead, especially Denethor? Do you think he thought it comical as he made Denethor a true madman in the films?

Once I caught this I was quite perturbed.
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Old 01-18-2008, 04:01 PM   #2
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Well...if they're going to put him standing on Balin's tomb, that makes sitting on the Stewards' Chair a little tame, doesn't it?

Gimli's pretty immature and disrespectful throughout the films...not really sure why, at all. I think they could have still gotten a lot of comic relief out of him without resorting to belching and the like.

Although I have to admit, maybe I'm just immature myself, but I chuckle everytime I see his belch in the midst of Theoden and Aragorn's tense exchange in TTT. It works perfectly to break the tension. Still doesn't mean it was the best thing to do, though...
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Old 01-18-2008, 04:22 PM   #3
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That is one way to look at it Matthew.
Another way to look at it is that Gimli is a trained and hardened warrior who has been through it all before and knows that when battle and death face you nothing but survival means anything. If you have to climb up on a tomb to gain a tactical advantage, then so be it. Maybe that is some of the wisdom that comes with years of practical experience.

I agree with E&E that sitting on the chair is a bit tame.
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Old 01-18-2008, 04:24 PM   #4
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Not only is it unfair to the character of Gimli (a helpless and unwilling victim in the hands of the screenwriters), but it's also unfair to the audience. My sense of humor extends far beyond belching and drinking.

I didn't mind Gimli sitting in the Steward's Chair as much as I mind the comic relief Gimli, but I agree, it's still out of place and doesn't really make sense if you think about it. It's unlikely that Aragorn would have allowed it.

If anyone had the right to stand on Balin's Tomb, it would have been Gimli - not that I think he should, or would have in ordinary circumstances. If you think about it, Gimli was only standing on the tomb in order to protect it, to kill any nasty goblins that dared approach it or defile it. Not only that, but he was putting himself in the center of the battle, exposed, for the sake of Balin's Tomb. So, I would argue that Gimli was in fact showing a great deal of respect (in that case), and perhaps more that Balin would have expected.

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Old 01-18-2008, 05:11 PM   #5
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If anyone had the right to stand on Balin's Tomb, it would have been Gimli - not that I think he should, or would have in ordinary circumstances. If you think about it, Gimli was only standing on the tomb in order to protect it, to kill any nasty goblins that dared approach it or defile it. Not only that, but he was putting himself in the center of the battle, exposed, for the sake of Balin's Tomb. So, I would argue that Gimli was in fact showing a great deal of respect (in that case), and perhaps more that Balin would have expected.
My sentiments exactly. Although it is a little wierd to say that Gimli was defyling Balin's tomb when we saw Gimli weeping over Balin when he realized he was dead. A very sad moment.

As for Gimli sitting on Denethor's chair, I don't see any lack of respect. Since we are taking things from a movie perspective it is only fair to say that Denethor was a madman. He ignored good council from Gandalf and chose not to listen to Pippin's plea's for him not to burn his own son alive! Why would you show that man any respect?
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Old 01-18-2008, 06:47 PM   #6
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It's not the man, it's the office and all that it represents.
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Old 01-18-2008, 07:05 PM   #7
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Good grief! I have seen some nits picked in my time here, but this must nick the prize for pick of the nitpicks ...

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Old 01-18-2008, 07:34 PM   #8
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Good grief! I have seen some nits picked in my time here, but this must nick the prize for pick of the nitpicks ...

Alatar would be proud of you.

Gee, Pan, are you hinting that the posters here are simply monkeying around?

sometimes you stand on the shoulders of giants to see farther. I think that's Gimli's attitude. Whether it's PJ's of course is debatable.
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Old 01-18-2008, 08:25 PM   #9
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It's not the man, it's the office and all that it represents.
Well if you want to talk about disgracing the office than take a good look at Denethor. He nearly brought Gondor to it's doom! Besides, if it was really all that bad, why didn't Aragorn, Gandalf, Eomer, or Legolas say something? A friendly "Hey, you really shouldn't be doing that Gimli."
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Old 01-18-2008, 10:00 PM   #10
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Things don't work like that in PJ world.
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Old 01-18-2008, 10:35 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauron the White View Post
Maybe that is some of the wisdom that comes with years of practical experience.
Doubtful.


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Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man
Good grief! I have seen some nits picked in my time here, but this must nick the prize for pick of the nitpicks ...

Alatar would be proud of you.
Sir, I am King of Nit picking. Thanks.
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Old 01-19-2008, 02:06 AM   #12
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And whatever one thinks of Denethor, even movie-Denethor, it was by that time Faramir's chair!
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Old 01-19-2008, 07:29 AM   #13
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This seems to be the perfect time for a Saturday Night Live sketch gently poking fun at .....

never mind.
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Old 01-20-2008, 07:09 PM   #14
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This seems to be the perfect time for a Saturday Night Live sketch gently poking fun at .....

never mind.
Poking fun at? You mean falling short of a laugh, right?
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Old 01-20-2008, 09:14 PM   #15
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Alatar would be proud of you.
Great... How I came about as having a nitpicking eye is anyone's guess.

If Gimli were so ready to 'let them come' in the Chamber of Mazarbul, he wouldn't have stood on Balin's tomb but stood tall out in front of the Fellowship where, just maybe, his short stance, arm reach and axe attack may actually have been of some benefit. Think that PJ intended no disrespect, as we know he treated each character with the dignity that we fans would expect, but merely had to put poor Gimli somewhere in order to 'get the shot.'

Not sure that PJ intended for Gimli to be showing the Steward's seat any disrespect either; Gimli may have sat on the Ruling Steward's throne - a place of honor for over 26 generations - as there just wasn't anywhere else for the Dwarf to be.

And there was always the possibility that he could fall out of it.
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Old 01-20-2008, 09:25 PM   #16
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Gimli is the Rodney Dangerfield of the movie.
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Old 01-20-2008, 10:52 PM   #17
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Well, I never thought of the whole sitting on the throne thing before, but I guess that Gimli standing on Balin's tomb was because he was defending it from the cave troll!
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Old 01-21-2008, 08:05 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauron the White
This seems to be the perfect time for a Saturday Night Live sketch gently poking fun at .....

never mind.
and reply from MatthewM
Quote:
Poking fun at? You mean falling short of a laugh, right?
Not right. Not at all. You see Matt, and I know this may hard for younger people to understand, but once upon a time, many years ago when the earth was young and dinosaurs roamed the planet, Saturday Night Live was actually a very funny show with talented people that made you laugh. Then the century turned and it devolved into the dull show you know.

I am glad to see that such a wide variety of people seem to find nothing at all wrong with the Moria scene and have very logical explainations for it.

Perhaps Matthew, you have another film topic for discussion of greater importance. I remember in the past the controversy of hair color was something close to your heart. But I do welcome the discussion and free and open exchange of frank opinion.

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Old 01-21-2008, 11:21 AM   #19
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Get outta here, StW.
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Old 01-21-2008, 11:30 AM   #20
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Not right. Not at all. You see Matt, and I know this may hard for younger people to understand, but once upon a time, many years ago when the earth was young and dinosaurs roamed the planet, Saturday Night Live was actually a very funny show with talented people that made you laugh. Then the century turned and it devolved into the dull show you know.
Back when Belushi was on the show.

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I am glad to see that such a wide variety of people seem to find nothing at all wrong with the Moria scene and have very logical explainations for it.
My issue with the scene, in regards to Gimli, is the apparent extendability of the Dwarf's neck. From one camera angle, the Dwarf kneels near the tomb of his fallen kinsman. Gimli's head is a over a foot from the stone. Next we see him, without moving, lean/nod his head forward and touch his helm to the tomb.

Must be due to Dwarves having the ability to move quickly even when it looks as if they aren't moving at all, something that will help later in the chase across Rohan.

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Perhaps Matthew, you have another film topic for discussion of greater importance. I remember in the past the controversy of hair color was something close to your heart.
To each his own.

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But I do welcome the discussion and free and open exchange of frank opinion.
...and who's Frank?
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Old 01-21-2008, 12:17 PM   #21
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alatar - I agree that the years with Belushi were the very best on SNL.


from Gwathagor

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Get outta here, StW
Why would you post something so obviously rude? I enjoy honest discussion about the films, the author, the books and other Middle-earth issues. I respect the educated opinion of many here. I notice that I continually cross swords with people like davem, William Cloud Hicklin and even alatar in the distant past, but all have remained civil and have not resorted to telling me to leave. They deal with issues - not resorting to personal sniping.

Are you afraid of differing opinion?

I am rather confused about what is going on here in the minds of a couple of people.

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Old 01-21-2008, 02:32 PM   #22
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I'm sorry; it's not personal, really. I do find your antagonistic posting style to be rather galling, but I oughtn't to have said anything. I retract the previous remark and shall reserve my judgment for the time being.
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Old 01-21-2008, 03:08 PM   #23
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thank you.
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Old 01-21-2008, 03:29 PM   #24
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alatar - I agree that the years with Belushi were the very best on SNL.


from Gwathagor



Why would you post something so obviously rude? I enjoy honest discussion about the films, the author, the books and other Middle-earth issues. I respect the educated opinion of many here. I notice that I continually cross swords with people like davem, William Cloud Hicklin and even alatar in the distant past, but all have remained civil and have not resorted to telling me to leave. They deal with issues - not resorting to personal sniping.

Are you afraid of differing opinion?

I am rather confused about what is going on here in the minds of a couple of people.
I thought your prior comment was pretty disrespectful to Matt to be honest - i think its important not to take things so seriously and accept a bit of stick when it ventures your way that way nobody has to "cross swords".

As regards to Gimli, I'm not sure who mentioned the comic-relief element of his portrayal but i found it quite irritating. I know John Rhys Davies added alot to the comedy value of the character, with his own catchphrases and so on but it was a tad overdone in my opinion.

A viewer with no prior knowledge of the Fellowship would have thought Legolas to be a God, Boromir a loser, and Gimli a midget clown. Each is as ridiculous a notion as the last!

Anyway.. with the tomb of Balin, and the stationing on the Steward's chair. I never picked up on it foremost, though i guess it would have been "frown-worthy" to sit on the Steward's chair not being a Steward, sort of like sitting on our Queen's throne to a slightly lesser degree, which would, i believe, be a massive mark of disrespect.

I don't think the standing on Balin's tomb was so big a deal, after all - he was attempting to protect it with his life against the Troll and nasty Orcsssss.
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Old 01-21-2008, 03:42 PM   #25
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We should all take note of Gwathagor's apology, who took it upon himself to step up and state that he may have erred. Cheers to that.

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I thought your prior comment was pretty disrespectful to Matt to be honest - i think its important not to take things so seriously and accept a bit of stick when it ventures your way that way nobody has to "cross swords".
Good words.

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I don't think the standing on Balin's tomb was so big a deal, after all - he was attempting to protect it with his life against the Troll and nasty Orcsssss.
But I thought that Gimli admits later - at least in the Books - that he wouldn't do well fighting from horseback, and yet he places himself above his enemies (and behind his companions), which, to me, would be less than advantageous.
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Old 01-21-2008, 03:50 PM   #26
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But I thought that Gimli admits later - at least in the Books - that he wouldn't do well fighting from horseback, and yet he places himself above his enemies (and behind his companions), which, to me, would be less than advantageous.
Perhaps the tomb made up for Gimli's lack of height?
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Old 01-21-2008, 04:16 PM   #27
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Perhaps the tomb made up for Gimli's lack of height?
Thats a pretty fair assessment!

i thought Alatar's comment about fighting from horseback is valid... i mean, wouldn't his reach be somewhat limited? especially if he's fighting with an axe - he'd surely be at a disadvantage.
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Old 01-21-2008, 04:27 PM   #28
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from Alatar

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But I thought that Gimli admits later - at least in the Books - that he wouldn't do well fighting from horseback, and yet he places himself above his enemies (and behind his companions), which, to me, would be less than advantageous.
If you look at the height that Gimli was working from on Balins tomb, the swing of his axe would have been perfect for an orcs head. I believe it would be a good foot or two shorter than if he were mounted upon the back of a decent sized horse. The foe who has to swing up at a defender usually is at the disadvantage. Gimli probably knows that as a hardened warrior.

I also think that he was making something of a statement with his stance and body language which is mirrored by his words 'let them know that there is one Dwarf left....etc" and sorry but that is a paraphrase and not a quote. He wanted to be the center of attraction for the invading Moria orcs and that was one way to do it distinguishing himself from his companions who were on the ground.
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Old 01-21-2008, 04:55 PM   #29
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For what it's worth, I found both of these scenes disrespectful, and totally unnecessary, even though we have been told that movies are different than books.

NO ONE should have been allowed to sit on the Steward's throne, other than the rightful Steward, and NO ONE would have allowed it! Forget about Aragorn and Gandalf! There are always guards in this sort of room to ENSURE that this sort of thing never happens! Pretending that there would be no guards in a room such as that, the throne room of a race and kingdom as ancient and noble in heritage as Gondor was, is beyond belief, just as it is beyond belief that Gandalf would be allowed to BEAT WITH HIS STAFF the Lord Denethor without ANY repercussions! That is truly stupidity put on display.

This really is not as trivial as some believe. This sort of outright disrespect, the sitting on the throne and the beating of the Lord of this people, would have led to a dissolving of any fellowship between the races. I will not buy at all into any "books are books, and movies are movies" arguments. They will not work.

Merry
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Old 01-21-2008, 05:14 PM   #30
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I will not buy at all into any "books are books, and movies are movies" arguments. They will not work.
Meriadoc... perhaps you are cross reading several different threads and are rather confused about the discussion here. We are discussing the merits, or lack of merit, to the depiction of Gimli on Balins tomb and later on Denethors throne. Both are film scenes and have nothing to do with the books.

The argument that you do not like - "books are books and movies are movies" (or perhaps the reality that you do not like to recognize) has often come from me .... but not in this thread and does not apply to this discussion. I have said repeatedly that we should judge the films by what works or does not work as a film. And that is what each post in this thread has attempted to do so far. So the whole film/movie thing has nothing to do with this right now.

You are attacking a line of debate that has not been used here.

It could well apply in other threads which compare the books to the movies and then make a judgement about the two. But not this one.

Regarding your point that nobody would be allowed on the stewards throne..... since the steward has just died - rather disgracefully at that - and no new one had yet been installed, I took it that the throne room was being used as some sort of battle central with meetings and planning. The formality of the room was temporarily dispensed with due to emergency circumstances. After all, it was wartime. To stand on polite ceremony in the middle of war is asking a bit much when there is much more at stake.
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Old 01-21-2008, 06:05 PM   #31
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For what it's worth, I found both of these scenes disrespectful, and totally unnecessary, even though we have been told that movies are different than books.

NO ONE should have been allowed to sit on the Steward's throne, other than the rightful Steward, and NO ONE would have allowed it! Forget about Aragorn and Gandalf! There are always guards in this sort of room to ENSURE that this sort of thing never happens! Pretending that there would be no guards in a room such as that, the throne room of a race and kingdom as ancient and noble in heritage as Gondor was, is beyond belief, just as it is beyond belief that Gandalf would be allowed to BEAT WITH HIS STAFF the Lord Denethor without ANY repercussions! That is truly stupidity put on display.

This really is not as trivial as some believe. This sort of outright disrespect, the sitting on the throne and the beating of the Lord of this people, would have led to a dissolving of any fellowship between the races. I will not buy at all into any "books are books, and movies are movies" arguments. They will not work.

Merry

I disagree, totally. Gandalf was with the King of Gondor, not the Stewart of Gondor. And last time I checked, King out ranked Stewart. As for Aragorn, he could and would have the right to sit on, tear down, color all over, feed his dog, have his friends sit on any seat in the hall. After all he was King. And it's good to be the King.

As for the beating of Denathor...I agree it probably was way over the top and not very Tolkien like. But it sure was fun to watch.

And the guards....would you go up against Gandalf? I wouldn't, I'd be afraid he'd turn me into a toad or a moth. I don't particularly like being either.
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Old 01-21-2008, 07:31 PM   #32
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As for Aragorn, he could and would have the right to sit on, tear down, color all over, feed his dog, have his friends sit on any seat in the hall. After all he was King. And it's good to be the King.~Quempel
Aragorn wasn't crowned King just yet, so he actually couldn't just do whatever he pleases. And the attitude of "I'm King I do what I want" never seems to historically work out for the Kings who felt that way. Even Kings have boundaries and etiquette to follow. Aragorn has enough dignity to not trash the Steward's throne. Seeing as he let's Faramir hold the office of Steward, even after becoming King, Aragorn definitely has more respect for HIS country...even if he likes beheading messengers (oops that's part of a different discussion )

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We are discussing the merits, or lack of merit, to the depiction of Gimli on Balins tomb and later on Denethors throne. Both are film scenes and have nothing to do with the books.~STW
Actually the discussion has very much to do with the books. As much as one might like to try and keep the two seperate, it's impossible to do so because it is the same story. This tends to happen when you get the disclaimer at the beginning of the movies..."based off of ________"

The bottomline being Gimli is a character who gets reduced to disrespectful and at times gross humour. Standing on Balin's tomb doesn't seem to be so much so as reclining on the Steward's throne having a smoke. And just to point out what WCH already did, Faramir was the Ruling Steward at this time, so Denethor abusing his power and being dead is not a valid excuse (at least in my opinion).
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Old 01-22-2008, 07:16 AM   #33
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We are discussing the merits, or lack of merit, to the depiction of Gimli on Balins tomb and later on Denethors throne. Both are film scenes and have nothing to do with the books.~STW
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Actually the discussion has very much to do with the books. As much as one might like to try and keep the two seperate, it's impossible to do so because it is the same story. This tends to happen when you get the disclaimer at the beginning of the movies..."based off of ________"
I understand your point but I think it is important to go back to the very first post in this thread to see what the intent of the poster was. MatthewM very clearly indicated that he was talking about the way Gimli was being used in the movie. His argument is based on a misuse of Gimli within the movie. I think that is the proper and very legitimate approach in discussing the films.

The replies here, and there have been many coming at this from various angles, have concerned themselves with the world of the films - as I think is right.

Aragorn may not have yet assumed the crown in a formal ceremony but by that time in the tale, everyone knew , including all in that throne room, who Aragorn was and what his position was. Quempel had a great point in that if Aragorn wanted Gimli to sit in the chair of the vacant steward, then that certainly is okay. Who in that room was going to challenge that boon extended to Gimli by Aragorn? And I think they had far greater things on their minds than the mere courtesy extended to a chair and who it did or did not represent.
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Old 01-22-2008, 07:50 AM   #34
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I think that is the proper and very legitimate approach in discussing the films.~Sauron
I can agree with that...for me though what I find disrespectful in a book is most likely what I will also find disrespectful in a movie. Anyway, as I said, I thought the approach to Gimli standing on Balin's tomb was a good one, and a good argument.

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And I think they had far greater things on their minds than the mere courtesy extended to a chair and who it did or did not represent.
But here I will have to bring up the books, because Aragorn (even amidst a war that would decide the fate of everyone) had the courtesy and respect to not walk into Minas Tirith while there was still political turmoil. The Last Debate was held outside the walls, and despite Aragorn being urged to claim the Kingship, he denies precisely because there is a war going on and he doesn't want Gondor to be dragged further down into this political vaccuum. Yes Aragorn could have made the claim to the throne, and probably would have been accepted, but he had the respect and decency to know that Sauron was still the enemy.
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Old 01-22-2008, 03:12 PM   #35
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Well, I never thought of the whole sitting on the throne thing before, but I guess that Gimli standing on Balin's tomb was because he was defending it from the cave troll!
Right, the throne room is a debatable mistake, but accusing Gimli of disrespecting his cousin's tomb is outragious. He stayed on top of it to defend Balin until the troll came and nearly smashed them both. Even then he tried to stop the troll by throughing a gigantic axe at it.
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Old 01-22-2008, 04:16 PM   #36
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Quite a few things to address. Your comments were disrespectful to me, StW, and I will post whatever topics I please concerning my grudges with the films. Hair color is a big deal to me. Get over it. Alatar said it best - to each his own.

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Originally Posted by Sauron the White View Post
MatthewM very clearly indicated that he was talking about the way Gimli was being used in the movie. His argument is based on a misuse of Gimli within the movie. I think that is the proper and very legitimate approach in discussing the films.

Do not speak for me. Apparently the subject of the thread was not "clearly indicated" to you, for Boro88 is correct. This thread, although showcasing a movie flaw, has everything to do with the books. Let me try to explain this to you.

The book was written.
Years later, the movies based off the book are filmed.

How in the world are you going to continue to preach on how movies are movies and books are books? I understand that these are two very different medias, and the films have to be treated in a certain way - but the fact remains that Peter Jackson was basing his films on J.R.R. Tolkien's beloved books.

There are some things in the films that should not have been, for they are contrary to the books.

Gimli sitting on the vacant Steward's chair is completely disrespectful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boromir88
And just to point out what WCH already did, Faramir was the Ruling Steward at this time, so Denethor abusing his power and being dead is not a valid excuse (at least in my opinion).
Agreed.
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Old 01-22-2008, 06:41 PM   #37
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Matthew..... look, lets be brutally honest here. You don't like me and have a real problem with me. Months ago, you told me to leave here and your animosity has only grown since then. Now its a full blown case of anger which shows in your nearly every post that has something to do with me.

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Your comments were disrespectful to me, StW, and I will post whatever topics I please concerning my grudges with the films. Hair color is a big deal to me. Get over it. Alatar said it best - to each his own.
Quote chapter and verse and I can respond in kind. Vague generalities do not lay any foundation for your claim.

I do not speak for you. My mind does not work that way. But I can look at what you wrote and state what it means to me. That is what we all do.

You are grasping at straws. You post clearly was looking to poke some holes in Jacksons movies. Period. You did not like the treatment of Gilmi on Balins tomb or on the chair of the Steward. Both of those are things YOU SAW IN THE MOVIES.

Hair color. You tell me to get over it. Your individual obsession with your idols hair color borders on being a bad joke. Your complaining about it saying its suppose to be black (again with the books) while in the movies it was brown, makes 14 year old starstruck girls sound rational.

Here is your latest example of irrational postings:

Quote:
How in the world are you going to continue to preach on how movies are movies and books are books? I understand that these are two very different medias, and the films have to be treated in a certain way - but the fact remains that Peter Jackson was basing his films on J.R.R. Tolkien's beloved books.

There are some things in the films that should not have been, for they are contrary to the books.
Peter Jackson, through Saul Zaentz and New Line, had to the right to any darn thing they pleased to do with those books. And when JRR Tolkien sold those rights to UA he knew it. He said as much in his letters when he said he was opting for money over art.

Peter Jackson has no obligation to put any one scene, any one character, any certain hair color in his movies based on anything that Tolkien wrote. No obligation of any kind. He had the right to do anything he wanted with those books.

He could use what he wanted to use.

He could cut what he wanted to cut.

He could change what he wanted to change.

He could add what he wanted to add.

And it was JRRTolkien himself who gave him that right. Nobody else.

Peter Jackson cannot change one page, one paragraph, one word, on item of punctuation in LOTR. He does not have that right.

And thats because movies are one thing while books are quite another.

JRRTolkien knew that.
Peter Jackson knows that.
I know that.
Its too bad that you claim to know that but it still seeps into your reasoning like polluted water fouling a clear stream.

You want to play nice. Fine, I can play nice. You want to take off the gloves and play rough. I can do that too. Believe me young man, you have not seen anything yet.

I prefer nice and civil. But be forewarned. Think about what you want to do with this direction.
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Old 01-22-2008, 06:52 PM   #38
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Old 01-22-2008, 06:53 PM   #39
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What's wrong with you people?

Some respect please even if you disagree...

PS. I just realised what is it in British parlance: manners, please.
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Old 01-22-2008, 06:59 PM   #40
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What's wrong with you people?

Some respect please even if you disagree...
Ironic, considering the title of the thread.
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