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Old 05-03-2019, 11:24 AM   #681
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Old 05-03-2019, 12:03 PM   #682
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Okay- a nonvillainous thing which was nonetheless the root of (almost) all evil
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Old 05-03-2019, 12:04 PM   #683
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Flame Imperishable?
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Old 05-03-2019, 12:05 PM   #684
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Well, the Root Of Absolutely Everything is a mite too general....
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Old 05-03-2019, 12:07 PM   #685
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Oath of Feanor?
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Old 05-03-2019, 12:48 PM   #686
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Oath of Feanor?
I'd say it was pretty villainous in itself. An oath of eternal hatred? Not really very kum-ba-yah, that.
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Old 05-03-2019, 01:09 PM   #687
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Silmarils?
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Old 05-07-2019, 10:29 AM   #688
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Is my answer right or not?
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Old 05-08-2019, 05:10 AM   #689
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I'd appreciate a yes/no to my guess.....
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Old 05-08-2019, 07:05 AM   #690
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Okay, guess I will never know......
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Old 05-08-2019, 07:40 AM   #691
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Whoa! Forgot I had left this one hanging. Sorry!

Anyway, yes, the Silmarils. If we want singular, then the one Beren recovered did more damage than the other two (fall of Doriath and two kinslayings extra)
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Old 05-08-2019, 07:56 AM   #692
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There are two characters who did evil things which ultimately led to good things. Who were they?

(Hint: They have been discussed recently, and a similar statement was made)
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Old 05-08-2019, 08:26 AM   #693
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There are two characters who did evil things which ultimately led to good things. Who were they?

(Hint: They have been discussed recently, and a similar statement was made)
Feanor and Turin?


Really the statement could apply to a lot of people, as it's an ongoing theme in Tolkien's work that all things will eventually lead to good. But I guess some people stand out more.
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Old 05-08-2019, 08:39 AM   #694
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1) Gollum
2) Maedhros (the Third Kinslaying resulted in Earendil getting Elwing with the Silmaril aboard, which made his embassy possible)
3) bonus answer: Thingol, whose attempt to indirectly murder Beren resulted in a Silmaril being recovered
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Old 05-08-2019, 09:25 AM   #695
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Only Gollum, and to extent Feanor, could be seen as 'bad guys' from that bunch.
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Old 05-15-2019, 03:32 AM   #696
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I assume the two characters are connected, because otherwise this is really two questions. So... Eol and Maeglin? They're both unambiguously cast as villains by Tolkien, but their actions led to the Fall of Gondolin, which led to Earendil's voyage.

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Old 05-15-2019, 04:07 AM   #697
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I was thinking of Gollum and Maeglin (and they are connected by the manner of their deaths), but your answer is better, so you can go.

And I request that you make an interesting question which requires some thinkin'.
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Old 05-15-2019, 06:42 AM   #698
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Thinkin'? Well, all right...

If prizes were being given out for killing the most (known) kings between the beginning of Arda and the end of the Third Age...

... who would take home the bronze?

And for how many kings?

Be prepared to defend your answer.

(And for bonus points: how many kings did first and second place kill each?)

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Old 05-15-2019, 06:51 AM   #699
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Well, Melkor is responsible for death of three Kings (Finwe, Feanor, and Fingolfin). Four, if you count Fingon.

Then there is Sauron, who is responsible for deaths of Finrod, Pharazon, Miriel, Elendil and Gil-Galad

And finally, we have the trio of Hurin/Turin/Maeglin, who lead to deaths of Thingol, Orodreth and Turgon, respectively.

(Alternatively, there is Castamir)

(Is this satisfactory?)
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Old 05-15-2019, 07:16 AM   #700
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Well, Melkor is responsible for death of three Kings (Finwe, Feanor, and Fingolfin). Four, if you count Fingon.

Then there is Sauron, who is responsible for deaths of Finrod, Pharazon, Miriel, Elendil and Gil-Galad

And finally, we have the trio of Hurin/Turin/Maeglin, who lead to deaths of Thingol, Orodreth and Turgon, respectively.

(Alternatively, there is Castamir)

(Is this satisfactory?)
You've come up way short on Sauron, and I'd say pretty short on Morgoth, too - Turgon, for instance, was killed by his army, so counts exactly as much as Fingon. And there's several more by that measure...

You also haven't given an answer to the actual question: who takes third place? You've named three people whose actions led to the deaths of kings, and one who... I don't think Castamir killed a king? He killed the crown prince.

I can name at least two characters who killed two named kings.

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Old 05-15-2019, 07:34 AM   #701
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Sons of Feanor, maybe? Or more specifically, Celegorm. I don't know whether he personally killed Olwe, but he definitely killed Dior.
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Old 05-15-2019, 07:36 AM   #702
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Or Gothmog, who killed Feanor and Fingon?
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Old 05-15-2019, 07:49 AM   #703
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Sons of Feanor, maybe? Or more specifically, Celegorm. I don't know whether he personally killed Olwe, but he definitely killed Dior.
I believe Dior killed Celegorm, actually. And Olwe isn't dead (he's last seen asking in vain for Osse to sink the swanships after the theft).

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Or Gothmog, who killed Feanor and Fingon?
Gothmog is a definite contender. I'm inclined not to give him credit for commanding the army that killed Turgon, because, well, he was dead by then. But there's at least two other characters who can claim at least two kills, so you're going to need to find someone with three or more.

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Old 05-15-2019, 07:53 AM   #704
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Can't think of anyone of the top of my head. Unless it isn't a person, but a concept....
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Old 05-15-2019, 08:24 AM   #705
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We're not going to give a bronze medal to a concept.

There is a specific character who can make a firm claim to at least 5 king-killings.

For the record, my final count give Morgoth six kills (three of them by his forces at his direct command), and Sauron ten(!!!) firm kills, plus another three if we count the three Kings of Gondor killed by Easterlings/Wainriders under his presumed command. I'm not giving him credit for kills by random Haradrim, Black Numenoreans, and Orcs - only for cases where he sent an army with a reasonable expectation of killing a specific king.

I count 46 Kings who died in an untimely manner (43 if you discount Maedhros, who wasn't High King when he died). I credit my candidate with 5 kills, Gothmog with 2, and I can only find one other character who claims more than 1 kill (also achieving 2). I originally thought Glaurung qualified, but apparently Azaghal was Lord of Belegost, so he only gets Orodreth.

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Old 05-15-2019, 08:56 AM   #706
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The Witch King has a couple names to his list. He killed Theoden, and he (or servants at his direct orders) killed Earnur. He may have killed some Arnorian kings but I can't remember any specifically.
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Old 05-15-2019, 09:31 AM   #707
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The Witch King has a couple names to his list. He killed Theoden, and he (or servants at his direct orders) killed Earnur. He may have killed some Arnorian kings but I can't remember any specifically.
That's who I had, sure enough. He also gets Arvedui - we're specifically told that the ice in the north was under his power. That takes him to 3, which is enough to win the bronze unless someone can pin a third death on Gothmog (or Durin's Bane, who killed Durin VI and Nain I). I'd also credit the Witch-King with Arveleg I of Arthedain, who he sent the armies of Angmar against - and probably Argeleb I as well, who was killed by Hill-Men allied with Angmar.

Over to you unless someone else can beat him.

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Old 05-15-2019, 09:41 AM   #708
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That's who I had, sure enough. He also gets Arvedui - we're specifically told that the ice in the north was under his power. That takes him to 3, which is enough to win the bronze unless someone can pin a third death on Gothmog (or Durin's Bane, who killed Durin VI and Nain I). I'd also credit the Witch-King with Arveleg I of Arthedain, who he sent the armies of Angmar against - and probably Argeleb I as well, who was killed by Hill-Men allied with Angmar.

Over to you unless someone else can beat him.

hS
I thought Arvedui dies a "natural" death, but I honestly can't remember that much from Arnor's history, so I can't argue any of your points. But more importantly, I don't know of anyone else who can beat that.
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Old 05-15-2019, 10:12 AM   #709
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I thought Arvedui dies a "natural" death, but I honestly can't remember that much from Arnor's history, so I can't argue any of your points. But more importantly, I don't know of anyone else who can beat that.
He fled the Witch-King to Forochel, and when a boat came to pick him up the Snowmen said if he got in it the Witch-King would sink him.

He got in it.

It sank.

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Old 05-15-2019, 11:01 AM   #710
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Barring any objections or counter-examples:


What evildoer was both the bidder of farewell and the greeter?
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Old 05-15-2019, 11:05 AM   #711
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Glaurung, to Turin?
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Old 05-15-2019, 11:06 AM   #712
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Glaurung, to Turin?
No.
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Old 05-16-2019, 02:44 AM   #713
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Barring any objections or counter-examples:


What evildoer was both the bidder of farewell and the greeter?
Bilbo Baggins, noted thief and traitor, who opened one book with "Good morning!" and the other with "I bid you all a very fond farewell."



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Old 05-16-2019, 05:55 AM   #714
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Bilbo Baggins, noted thief and traitor, who opened one book with "Good morning!" and the other with "I bid you all a very fond farewell."



hS
Good thinking, but despite being a thief and traitor Bilbo isn't really a bad guy.



I realized the clue might be a little vague, so here's a version with an extra detail:

What evdildoer was both bidder of farewell upon departure, and greeter upon arrival?
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Old 05-16-2019, 07:11 AM   #715
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Good thinking, but despite being a thief and traitor Bilbo isn't really a bad guy.

I realized the clue might be a little vague, so here's a version with an extra detail:

What evdildoer was both bidder of farewell upon departure, and greeter upon arrival?
True - but you did specify 'evildoer', not 'evil-be-er'.

Didn't Bill Ferny show up pretty early in the Scouring (as well as, of course, getting an apple lobbed at his head on departing Bree)?

hS
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Old 05-16-2019, 07:16 AM   #716
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Didn't Bill Ferny show up pretty early in the Scouring (as well as, of course, getting an apple lobbed at his head on departing Bree)?

hS
He absolutely did! Showed his face during the departure from Bree, and during the arrival to the Shire. And suffered blunt force trauma injuries both times.

Over to you!
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Old 05-16-2019, 07:51 AM   #717
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Two of them are in Beleriand and Rhovanion.

Where is the third?

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Old 05-16-2019, 08:00 AM   #718
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Dark fortresses?
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Old 05-16-2019, 08:00 AM   #719
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In which case, the third is in Aman
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Old 05-16-2019, 08:01 AM   #720
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Dark fortresses?
But then what about Mordor? It's another one - arguably coming before Dol Guldur because it's older and bigger.
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