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Old 03-20-2009, 12:25 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legate
as if your Fëanor was not a greedy jerk who started a war with his own kin and lead his followers under the Doom, so I think there's not that much to compare.
Whatever.

He didn't start the war. Melkor did. Melkor made it his number one goal to corrupt Feanor. Once he decided to do that, it was a given that Feanor was going to be tainted. The only people who had the power to undo the damage were the Valar. But instead of undoing Melkor's lies (like Melian did with Hurin) they punished Feanor via banishment which only strengthened Melkor's stain.

Yeah. Really great judgment there.

Once that happened, it was over. Something bad was going to happen. And Melkor stealing the greatest work of hands ever (Silmarils) and killing Feanor's father pushed Feanor over the edge (remember, it said Feanor loved his dad more than any son ever loved his father).

And when Feanor arrived at Alqualonde, he didn't start the killing. He offered the idea of Olwe's people helping them build boats or ferrying them. It was a reasonable offer considering the Noldor had built their city for them. But no. Because the Valar didn't want the Noldor to leave, their puppet Olwe refused to help.

So Feanor began manning the ships. And then the Alqualonde elves starting throwing them overboard. And remember, the Noldor were weighted down with weapons and and armor and such, so the Alqualonde elves were essentially drowning them. They started the killing.

But anyway, this exercise in logical thinking usually proves too much for my fellow Downers. It's much easier mentally to blame Feanor rather than trace things back to the Valar.
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Old 03-20-2009, 12:37 PM   #82
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So phantom was Feanor obligated to have Melkor taint him? Perhaps he could devalue his possessions enough. I think the Feanor story is all about point of view and we have a different point of view. Why is it the Valar's job to bail him out?
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Old 03-20-2009, 12:45 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morm
So phantom was Feanor obligated to have Melkor taint him?
He didn't have a choice. If Melkor decides he is going to corrupt someone, if he's allowed to work his evil magic (the way the Valar allowed him to), then it's pretty much a given that he's going to succeed. Even Hurin the Steadfast couldn't help but be tainted by Melkor.

Once Melkor decided that ruining Feanor was his top priority, it was going to happen. Melkor is that powerful.

If his target of choice would've been Finrod during those years in Valinor, then Finrod would've done something nutty (unless the Valar had stepped in to counter Melkor).
Quote:
Originally Posted by morm
Why is it the Valar's job to bail him out?
Why is it their job to be fair?

Why is it their job to try and undo Melkor's evil?

Why is it their job to have compassion on a child of Eru and attempt to set them right?

You've gotta be kidding.

If you want to see how Feanor should've been dealt with, look at Melian and Hurin. She did the right thing and showed compassion and undid Melkor's malice. The Valar on the other hand strengthened Melkor's lies with their harsh banishment. They dropped the ball, plain and simple.

Anyway, this is exactly why I didn't want Feanor included in this thing. Hardly anyone thinks about him properly.
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Old 03-20-2009, 12:45 PM   #84
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=AganzirIt's different. Fëanor had some charisma. And dark hair.

Besides I imagine Thingol looks like a lewd grandpa just because I once managed to paint him like that. Eww.
All right, point taken

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Originally Posted by the phantom View Post
He didn't start the war. Melkor did. Melkor made it his number one goal to corrupt Feanor. Once he decided to do that, it was a given that Feanor was going to be tainted. The only people who had the power to undo the damage were the Valar. But instead of undoing Melkor's lies (like Melian did with Hurin) they punished Feanor via banishment which only strengthened Melkor's stain.

Yeah. Really great judgment there.

Once that happened, it was over. Something bad was going to happen. And Melkor stealing the greatest work of hands ever (Silmarils) and killing Feanor's father pushed Feanor over the edge (remember, it said Feanor loved his dad more than any son ever loved his father).

And when Feanor arrived at Alqualonde, he didn't start the killing. He offered the idea of Olwe's people helping them build boats or ferrying them. It was a reasonable offer considering the Noldor had built their city for them. But no. Because the Valar didn't want the Noldor to leave, their puppet Olwe refused to help.

So Feanor began manning the ships. And then the Alqualonde elves starting throwing them overboard. And remember, the Noldor were weighted down with weapons and and armor and such, so the Alqualonde elves were essentially drowning them. They started the killing.

But anyway, this exercise in logical thinking usually proves too much for my fellow Downers. It's much easier mentally to blame Feanor rather than trace things back to the Valar.
Oh, how corrupted by Morgoth's lies you have become! You start with speaking about him, yet end up with Valar, who were as much victims as your Fëanor was.

However anyway, Fëanor was selfish and greedy person, who did not care about the lives of his kin, and even of those close to him who followed (I heard about some ship burning). Mainly, however, you say the Valar were the only ones to remove the damage. Not really. They asked Fëanor to give him the Silmarils, yet here his greed prevailed (it's of no matter that he factically didn't have them anymore at that point) and he refused to give it to them. And they did not force him, by any means, even though I can imagine people who would argue they had the right to, as there was the fate of Arda at stake (I think it was right the way they did it, but anyway).

Perhaps the Noldor had moral right for some of the Teleri's help, and they were their kin after all, however anyway, Noldor had no right to go and take their ships if Teleri did not give them to them. They Noldor acted no differently from Morgoth, the basis of the deed is the same: stealing something that does not belong to them, and eventually killing others in the process.

P.S. But seeing that also Morm has joined the discussion, I am beginning to worry that we got a bit off-topic on this thread
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Old 03-20-2009, 12:45 PM   #85
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Hurt Ulmo, hurt Ungoliant. Heal Finrod, the only dude who cared about Men.

Legate: I have read CoH rather recently. Didn't help at all to develop feelings for anybody there...

Phantom: WOW - it were the Teleri who started the bloodbath at Alqualonde! I am convinced now. Go, Feanor!

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Old 03-20-2009, 12:54 PM   #86
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Old 03-20-2009, 12:57 PM   #87
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Old 03-20-2009, 12:59 PM   #88
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Hurt Míriel, hurt Ungoliant, heal Ecthelion.

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Old 03-20-2009, 01:02 PM   #89
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Double hurt Turgon again - remember the Fen of Serech. Treacherous, ungrateful coward who used Men as cannon fodder. Heal Feanor who was at least interesting.

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Old 03-20-2009, 01:05 PM   #90
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Hurt Húrin and Fingon (not to let characters to whom I have rather "indifferent" attitude to be too high), heal Ulmo

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Old 03-20-2009, 01:36 PM   #91
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Old 03-20-2009, 01:46 PM   #92
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Old 03-20-2009, 01:47 PM   #93
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Double hurt Turgon Heal Feanor

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Old 03-20-2009, 01:51 PM   #94
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Old 03-20-2009, 01:54 PM   #95
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Double hurt Ecthelion (who certainly does not deserve as many points as he has right now), heal Ulmo

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Old 03-20-2009, 02:13 PM   #96
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Old 03-20-2009, 02:13 PM   #97
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EDIT: Never mind. Morm finished him. I will revote.

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Old 03-20-2009, 02:15 PM   #98
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Double hurt Ecthelion (who certainly does not deserve as many points as he has right now)
Hey, he sacrificed himself to kill the lord of the balrogs! I think that's pretty cool...

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Old 03-20-2009, 02:33 PM   #99
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Hey, he sacrificed himself to kill the lord of the balrogs! I think that's pretty cool...
Yes, I understand that - but I simply don't. There's about one line about him. Glorfindel, on the other hand, was far cooler when it comes to the matter. Besides, I don't like his name that much. It really fits much more to a Gondorian steward than to an Elf, in my opinion.
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Old 03-20-2009, 02:36 PM   #100
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Sure, sure, I see. Maybe it's just me. There's such an awful abundance of Elven princes in the Silm, that I quite like the few regular ones, Ecthelion, Glorfindel, Mablung, Beleg, Daeron, Voronwe... especially if they accomplished something as great as Ecthelion did. It sticks out.
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Old 03-20-2009, 02:39 PM   #101
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Sure, sure, I see. Maybe it's just me. There's such an awful abundance of Elven princes in the Silm, that I quite like the few regular ones, Ecthelion, Glorfindel, Mablung, Beleg, Daeron, Voronwe... especially if they accomplished something as great as Ecthelion did. It sticks out.
Yes, I see. But actually, funnily enough I like all the others you named except for Ecthelion. Perhaps he's too noble for me, in some way - you know, like a noble prince who appears, kills a Balrog and disappears again. Glorfindel is more of a knight, he has some more background; Mablung is a hunter, Beleg too, Daeron is a singer, Voronwë is a mariner. So the representative of the feudal class, so to say, is not seeming special in any way.
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Old 03-20-2009, 02:41 PM   #102
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Húrin (9)
Morwen (9)
Maedhros (10)
Mîm (7)
Aredhel (8)
Thuringwethil (8)
Lúthien (8)
Ulmo (10)
Fëanor (7)
Fingon (11)
Finrod (8)
Ecthelion (9)
Huan (8)
Ungoliant (4)
Azaghâl (7)
Míriel (8)

Eliminated
Thingol by Phantom
Turgon by mormegil

Phantom's edit & Mac's vote right after that messed the list up a bit. I have corrected it now.
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Old 03-20-2009, 03:16 PM   #103
Tuor in Gondolin
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Double hurt Turin Heal Mim

Túrin (9)
Melian (10)
Húrin (9)
Morwen (9)
Maedhros (10)
Mîm (8)
Aredhel (8)
Thuringwethil (8)
Lúthien (8)
Ulmo (10)
Fëanor (7)
Fingon (11)
Finrod (8)
Ecthelion (9)
Huan (8)
Ungoliant (4)
Azaghâl (7)
Míriel (8)

Eliminated
Thingol by Phantom
Turgon by mormegil
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The poster formerly known as Tuor of Gondolin.
Walking To Rivendell and beyond 12,555 miles passed Nt./Day 5: Pass the beacon on Nardol, the 'Fire Hill.'
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Old 03-20-2009, 03:24 PM   #104
Gordis
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
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Location: Minas Morgul
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Gordis is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Double hurt Ungoliant, heal Turin


Túrin (10)
Melian (10)
Húrin (9)
Morwen (9)
Maedhros (10)
Mîm (8)
Aredhel (8)
Thuringwethil (8)
Lúthien (8)
Ulmo (10)
Fëanor (7)
Fingon (11)
Finrod (8)
Ecthelion (9)
Huan (8)
Ungoliant (2)
Azaghâl (7)
Míriel (8)

Eliminated
Thingol by Phantom
Turgon by mormegil
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Old 03-20-2009, 03:32 PM   #105
Legate of Amon Lanc
A Voice That Gainsayeth
 
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Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
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Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.
Like Morm said: it's not that I'd dislike her that much, but just the chance to make the deadly blow...

Kill Ungoliant, heal Melian

Túrin (10)
Melian (11)
Húrin (9)
Morwen (9)
Maedhros (10)
Mîm (8)
Aredhel (8)
Thuringwethil (8)
Lúthien (8)
Ulmo (10)
Fëanor (7)
Fingon (11)
Finrod (8)
Ecthelion (9)
Huan (8)
Ungoliant (0) *ei*
Azaghâl (7)
Míriel (8)

Eliminated
Thingol by Phantom
Turgon by mormegil
Ungoliant by Good, Aaaanakin, good! Kill him!
__________________
"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories
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Old 03-20-2009, 05:02 PM   #106
Eönwë
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Location: Right here
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Eönwë is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Eönwë is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Eönwë is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
Hurt Melian and Maedhros, heal Finrod

Túrin (10)
Melian (10)
Húrin (9)
Morwen (9)
Maedhros (9)
Mîm (8)
Aredhel (8)
Thuringwethil (8)
Lúthien (8)
Ulmo (10)
Fëanor (7)
Fingon (11)
Finrod (9)
Ecthelion (9)
Huan (8)
Azaghâl (7)
Míriel (8)

Eliminated
Thingol by Ye Phantome
Turgon by mormegil
Ungoliant by Mr Legato
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Welcome to the Barrow Do-owns Forum / Such a lovely place
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Old 03-20-2009, 07:54 PM   #107
mormegil
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mormegil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.mormegil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Heal Huan Double Hurt Aredhel

Túrin (10)
Melian (10)
Húrin (9)
Morwen (9)
Maedhros (9)
Mîm (8)
Aredhel (6)
Thuringwethil (8)
Lúthien (8)
Ulmo (10)
Fëanor (7)
Fingon (11)
Finrod (9)
Ecthelion (9)
Huan (9)
Azaghâl (7)
Míriel (8)

Eliminated
Thingol by Ye Phantome
Turgon by mormegil
Ungoliant by Mr Legato
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When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.
-- P. J. O'Rourke
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Old 03-20-2009, 08:00 PM   #108
Tuor in Gondolin
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Hurt Azaghal Hurt Turin Heal Mim

Túrin (9)
Melian (10)
Húrin (9)
Morwen (9)
Maedhros (9)
Mîm (9)
Aredhel (6)
Thuringwethil (8)
Lúthien (8)
Ulmo (10)
Fëanor (7)
Fingon (11)
Finrod (9)
Ecthelion (9)
Huan (9)
Azaghâl (6)
Míriel (8)

Eliminated
Thingol by Ye Phantome
Turgon by mormegil
Ungoliant by Mr Legato
__________________
The poster formerly known as Tuor of Gondolin.
Walking To Rivendell and beyond 12,555 miles passed Nt./Day 5: Pass the beacon on Nardol, the 'Fire Hill.'
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Old 03-20-2009, 08:22 PM   #109
Oddwen
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Location: Next Sunday A.D.
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Oddwen is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Oddwen is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Oddwen is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
Hurt Melian and Morwen, heal Aredhel

Túrin (9)
Melian (9)
Húrin (9)
Morwen (8)
Maedhros (9)
Mîm (9)
Aredhel (7)
Thuringwethil (8)
Lúthien (8)
Ulmo (10)
Fëanor (7)
Fingon (11)
Finrod (9)
Ecthelion (9)
Huan (9)
Azaghâl (6)
Míriel (8)

Eliminated
Thingol by Ye Phantome
Turgon by mormegil
Ungoliant by Mr Legato
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But all the while I sit and think of times there were before
I listen for returning feet and voices at the door
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Old 03-21-2009, 01:28 AM   #110
Gordis
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
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Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 431
Gordis is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Hurt Fingon and Huan, heal Turin

Túrin (10)
Melian (9)
Húrin (9)
Morwen (8)
Maedhros (9)
Mîm (9)
Aredhel (7)
Thuringwethil (8)
Lúthien (8)
Ulmo (10)
Fëanor (7)
Fingon (10)
Finrod (9)
Ecthelion (9)
Huan (8)
Azaghâl (6)
Míriel (8)

Eliminated
Thingol by Ye Phantome
Turgon by mormegil
Ungoliant by Mr Legato
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Old 03-21-2009, 10:59 AM   #111
Rikae
Mellifluous Maia
 
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Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth
Posts: 3,533
Rikae is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Rikae is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Rikae is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Hurt Aredhell and Mim, heal Fëanor

Túrin (10)
Melian (9)
Húrin (9)
Morwen (8)
Maedhros (9)
Mîm (8)
Aredhel (6)
Thuringwethil (8)
Lúthien (8)
Ulmo (10)
Fëanor (8)
Fingon (10)
Finrod (9)
Ecthelion (9)
Huan (8)
Azaghâl (6)
Míriel (8)

Eliminated
Thingol by Ye Phantome
Turgon by mormegil
Ungoliant by Mr Legato
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Old 03-21-2009, 11:19 AM   #112
Aganzir
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Location: in hollow halls beneath the fells
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Aganzir is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Aganzir is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Aganzir is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Aganzir is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Hurt Morwen and Míriel, heal Fëanor.

Túrin (10)
Melian (9)
Húrin (9)
Morwen (7)
Maedhros (9)
Mîm (8)
Aredhel (6)
Thuringwethil (8)
Lúthien (8)
Ulmo (10)
Fëanor (9)
Fingon (10)
Finrod (9)
Ecthelion (9)
Huan (8)
Azaghâl (6)
Míriel (7)

Eliminated
Thingol by Ye Phantome
Turgon by mormegil
Ungoliant by Mr Legato
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Old 03-21-2009, 11:43 AM   #113
Thinlómien
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Thinlómien is wading through the Dead Marshes.Thinlómien is wading through the Dead Marshes.Thinlómien is wading through the Dead Marshes.Thinlómien is wading through the Dead Marshes.Thinlómien is wading through the Dead Marshes.Thinlómien is wading through the Dead Marshes.
Hurt Míriel and Ecthelion, heal Morwen

Túrin (10)
Melian (9)
Húrin (9)
Morwen (8)
Maedhros (9)
Mîm (8)
Aredhel (6)
Thuringwethil (8)
Lúthien (8)
Ulmo (10)
Fëanor (9)
Fingon (10)
Finrod (9)
Ecthelion (8)
Huan (8)
Azaghâl (6)
Míriel (6)

Eliminated
Thingol by Ye Phantome
Turgon by mormegil
Ungoliant by Mr Legato
__________________
Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer
Blood is running deep, some things never sleep
Double Fenris
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Old 03-21-2009, 11:43 AM   #114
Macalaure
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Location: into the flood again
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Macalaure is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Macalaure is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Macalaure is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
Hurt Aredhel and Thuringwethil, heal Maedhros

Túrin (10)
Melian (9)
Húrin (9)
Morwen (8)
Maedhros (10)
Mîm (8)
Aredhel (5)
Thuringwethil (7)
Lúthien (8)
Ulmo (10)
Fëanor (9)
Fingon (10)
Finrod (9)
Ecthelion (8)
Huan (8)
Azaghâl (6)
Míriel (6)

Eliminated
Thingol by Ye Phantome
Turgon by mormegil
Ungoliant by Mr Legato
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Old 03-21-2009, 01:11 PM   #115
Tuor in Gondolin
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southeast Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,651
Tuor in Gondolin has been trapped in the Barrow!
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Hurt Ecthelion Hurt Turin Heal Mim

Túrin (9)
Melian (9)
Húrin (9)
Morwen (8)
Maedhros (10)
Mîm (9)
Aredhel (5)
Thuringwethil (7)
Lúthien (8)
Ulmo (10)
Fëanor (9)
Fingon (10)
Finrod (9)
Ecthelion (7)
Huan (8)
Azaghâl (6)
Míriel (6)

Eliminated
Thingol by Ye Phantome
Turgon by mormegil
Ungoliant by Mr Legato
__________________
The poster formerly known as Tuor of Gondolin.
Walking To Rivendell and beyond 12,555 miles passed Nt./Day 5: Pass the beacon on Nardol, the 'Fire Hill.'
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Old 03-21-2009, 03:15 PM   #116
Legate of Amon Lanc
A Voice That Gainsayeth
 
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,606
Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.
Heal Melian, hurt Húrin and Míriel

Túrin (9)
Melian (10)
Húrin (8)
Morwen (8)
Maedhros (10)
Mîm (9)
Aredhel (5)
Thuringwethil (7)
Lúthien (8)
Ulmo (10)
Fëanor (9)
Fingon (10)
Finrod (9)
Ecthelion (7)
Huan (8)
Azaghâl (6)
Míriel (5)

Eliminated
Thingol by Ye Phantome
Turgon by mormegil
Ungoliant by Mr Legato
__________________
"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories
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Old 03-21-2009, 04:02 PM   #117
Rikae
Mellifluous Maia
 
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth
Posts: 3,533
Rikae is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Rikae is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Rikae is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Double hurt Aredhel, heal Fëanor

Túrin (9)
Melian (10)
Húrin (8)
Morwen (8)
Maedhros (10)
Mîm (9)
Aredhel (3)
Thuringwethil (7)
Lúthien (8)
Ulmo (10)
Fëanor (10)
Fingon (10)
Finrod (9)
Ecthelion (7)
Huan (8)
Azaghâl (6)
Míriel (5)

Eliminated
Thingol by Ye Phantome
Turgon by mormegeil
Ungoliant by Mr Legato
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Old 03-21-2009, 06:02 PM   #118
Lalaith
Blithe Spirit
 
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Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,876
Lalaith is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Lalaith is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Heal Aredhel
Hurt Fingon
Hurt Ecthelion

Túrin (9)
Melian (10)
Húrin (8)
Morwen (8)
Maedhros (10)
Mîm (9)
Aredhel (4)
Thuringwethil (7)
Lúthien (8)
Ulmo (10)
Fëanor (10)
Fingon (9)
Finrod (9)
Ecthelion (6)
Huan (8)
Azaghâl (6)
Míriel (5)

Eliminated
Thingol by Ye Phantome
Turgon by mormegeil
Ungoliant by Mr Legato
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Out went the candle, and we were left darkling
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Old 03-21-2009, 07:45 PM   #119
Tuor in Gondolin
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
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Location: Southeast Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,651
Tuor in Gondolin has been trapped in the Barrow!
Send a message via Yahoo to Tuor in Gondolin
Oops! I misconted so post cancelled.
__________________
The poster formerly known as Tuor of Gondolin.
Walking To Rivendell and beyond 12,555 miles passed Nt./Day 5: Pass the beacon on Nardol, the 'Fire Hill.'
Last edited by Tuor in Gondolin; 03-21-2009 at 07:48 PM.
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Old 03-21-2009, 07:46 PM   #120
Tuor in Gondolin
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
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Location: Southeast Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,651
Tuor in Gondolin has been trapped in the Barrow!
Send a message via Yahoo to Tuor in Gondolin
Oops! I misconted so post cancelled.
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The poster formerly known as Tuor of Gondolin.
Walking To Rivendell and beyond 12,555 miles passed Nt./Day 5: Pass the beacon on Nardol, the 'Fire Hill.'
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