Does Frodo live???

[Laiedheliel]

I mean at the end of RotK when Frodo goes to the Havens with Elrond and everyone else, and he goes across the sea, does he live to see the Undying Lands? I know that the ring would sustain his life, but it was destroyed. So did he live to see the lands to the west, or did he die at sea?

[ElanorGamgee]

I think that it is understood that he made it to the West, although it is not stated directly. In the apendices it is mentioned that Sam sails to the West in order to join Frodo after Rose dies. Frodo would still have to die eventually after reaching the West, but I think he probably lived there for a good while.

[Aosama, the Wandering Star]

This might be on topic (or not) but its as good a place as any to ask this (rather embarrassing) question of mine...
I've heard the slogan "Frodo Lives" before, usually in reference to the Sixties, and excuse my ignorance, but...
"HUH?"

[piosenniel]

Aosama - here's a reply from a true child of the 60's:

Frodo Lives!

A sort of underground, group identity slogan that says Frodo, or at least the Spirit of Frodo, is alive and well and functioning in this often mad, ungentle, industrial world.

There is hope - 'Frodo Lives' - in each of us as a possibility!

[Kalimac]

Thanks Piosenniel [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]. As a child of the 70s (literally - I was born 8 months before the 70s ended) I'd been wondering about that as well.

[piosenniel]

Kalimac - I've often wondered - What are you drinking in that mug of yours?

[Kalimac]

Piosenniel - miruvor, of course! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Actually it depends on my mood and the kind of discussion I'm posting for. Sometimes, when it's just relaxed, not-very-serious posting like riddles or parodies, it's a soft drink, or sometimes a beer. For slightly more tangled arguments (the ethical sense of Orcs, etc) it's rum-and-coke, or White Russian. For "special topics" (What was Tom Bombadil, Balrog wings) it's vodka all the way with a slice of lemon (I wish we had a shot glass icon; a beer mug full of Stolichnaya is just a little much even when reading yard-length posts proving that Bombadil was not actually a Maia [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]). Right now it's filled with Sam Adams.

[Amarinth]

you speak for me too, piosenniel, a similar child of the 60's [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]. the slogan "frodo lives" in its heydey was used to invoke in peoples heart a slumbering innate hope, a forgotten flame, in a world growing more unfeeling and dark especially at that time. i once stated the slogan at one time here in a thread gone incendiary, in retrospect of some political struggle which had its roots in the turbulent 60's. hmmm, that brings me back...

[piosenniel]

Amarinth

the slogan "frodo lives" in its heydey was used to invoke in peoples heart a slumbering innate hope, a forgotten flame, in a world growing more unfeeling and dark especially at that time.

very nicely put! & nice to know someone around my ageless age is here on the forum! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

btw - you have just quoted from my favorite poet!

such was a poet and shall be and is
--who'll solve the depths of horror to defend
a sunbeam's architecture with his life:
and carve immortal jungles of despair
to hold a mountain's heartbeat in his hand

-- ee cummings

[greyhavener]

Yeah, I remember "Frodo lives" bumper stickers. I think someone wrote it on a subway wall sometimes in the sixties and it spread from there. I wanted to be a child of the sixties, but by the time I was old enough to really get into them it was the seventies, so I've read my way through the next three decades.

[Birdland]

“Frodo Lives”.

So y’all want to know what that phrase means? Well here‘s a little song parody that might help y’all to understand jus’ what we’re talkin’ about…HIT IT, BOYS!

Weeeeeeeeeellllllll
Frodo is everywhere
Frodo is everything
Frodo is everybody
Frodo still whoops the Ring
Man oh man
What I want you to see
Is that the Little B‘s
Inside of you and me!

Frodo is everywhere, man
He's in everything
He's in everybody
Frodo is in your jeans
He's in your cheeseburgers
Frodo is in Nutty Buddies
Frodo is in your mom
He's in evvvvvry-body
He's in the young, the old,
The fat, the skinny,
The white, the black
The brown and the blue
People got Frodo in 'em too
Frodo is in everybody out there
Everybody's got Frodo in 'em
Everybody except one person that is
Yeah, one person
The evil opposite of Frodo
The Anti-Frodo
Let me tell ya
Michael J. Fox has no Frodo in him

Frodo is everywhere
Frodo is everything
Frodo is everybody
Frodo still whoops the Ring
Man oh man
What I want you to see
Is that the Little B‘s
Inside of you and me!

Man, there's a lot of unexplained phenomenon
Out there in the world
Lot of things people say
"What the heck's going on?"
Let me tell ya
Who built the pyramids?
FRODO!
Who built Stonehenge?
FRODO!
Yeah, man you see guys
Walkin' down the street
Pushin' shopping carts
And you think they're talking to Allah
Or talking to themselves
Man, no they're talking to FRODO!
FRODO! FRODO!
You know what's going on in that Bermuda Triangle?
Down in the Bermuda Triangle
Frodo eats boats
Frodo eats boats
FrodoFrodoFrodoFrodoFrodoFrodoFrodo eats boats!

Yeah man, you know people from outer space
People from outer space they come up to me
They don't look like Doctor Spock
They don't look like Klingons
All that Star Trek jive
They look like Frodo!
FRODO!
Everybody in outer space looks like Frodo
Cause Frodo is a perfect being
We're all moving in perfect peace and harmony towards Frodoness
Soon all will become Frodo
Everything everywhere will be Frodo
Why do you think they call it evolution anyway?
It's really Frodolution!

Weeeeeeeeeellllllll
Frodo is everywhere
Frodo is everything
Frodo is everybody
Frodo still whoops the Ring
Man oh man
What I want you to see
Is that the Little B‘s
Inside of you and me!

(Apologies to Skid Roper and Mojo Nixon)

[VanimaEdhel]

Wow: thank you everyone! As a child of June, 1987, I have never even heard of any of this! This comes as quite interesting, actually!

I don't really like having been born when I was: I missed so many things within my lifetime...but, then again, I'll be part of something just as big probably (especially since I live right outside NYC...a lot goes on there), but...I missed so much!

Well: just thanking you all for giving me a look into the 60's! Very interesting!

[Amarinth]

piosenniel-- the 60's and ee cummings! we're kindred spirits! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

birdie-- LOL! you kill me! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

vanima-- the 60's may've been turbulent, but the 80's ROCK! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Daniel Telcontar]

Why should Frodo die, Elanor? After all, the meaning of the name "The Undying Lands" must be, that nothing ever dies there. I think that Frodo is alive and well, watching Bilbo smoking pipeweed and Sam tending to his garden.

[Vráin Redmallet]

That is a great song you wrote up there. It would be even better if you could get someone to actually sing it some how. I am glad that such knowledgeable people are in these forums. I was born in November of '86. I am also not too happy with when I was born. For instance, my favorite music group of all time is Queen. I have missed all they're concerts and everything. Well, not all of them. Queen is doing this "We Will Rock You" play kinda thing in Britain, but since it's over there, I'M STILL SCREWED!!!!!! [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img]

[Laiedheliel]

Vráin and Vanima, I hear ya! I was also born in '87 and feel like I missed everything (except some really great music), and Queen RAWKS! But, back on topic...


*Laie*

[Birdland]

That was a great song you wrote up there - Vráin Redmallet

Vráin, It's actually my take-off of the song "Elvis Is Everywhere" by Mojo Nixon. I just took out "Elvis" and substituted "Frodo". I couldn't resist!!!

Search online and you may find the MP3. Then you can sing "Frodo Is Everywhere", too! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[littlemanpoet]

Yeah, I remember the heydays too. I too was born just a tad late (1960) to REALLY appreciate the whole 60s thing, but lived it vicariously through two VERY WILLING older brothers. In the city where I went to high school there was a "Bilbo's" hobby shop and book store and the walls there were covered in Middle Earth grafitti.

"Frodo lives" to me meant that all the cynical money makers and tree killers and habitat destroyers and the rest could not destroy the dream, no matter how hard they tried. Reminds me of a Jethro Tull song from Songs From the Woods (1978?) called "Jack in the Green", "...or will these changing times break us apart? Well I don't think so - I saw some grass growing through the pavement today. Ohh, ohh, Jack in the Green..." [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

[Mankáno]

Frodo indeed sailed to the west and in the appendices to LOTR it's clear he arrived there. The reason he was allowed to was because he was one of the ring bearers (as Bilbo and Sam later).

Nothing else is said in the books, however, there is a Tolkien's letter that explains that Frodo's stay in Valinor (or Eressea) is for healing, but not for ever.

[Daniel Telcontar]

If Frodo does not stay in Valinor for ever, then where does he go? I mean, where else is there to go?

[Mankáno]

another important comment, immortality isn't related to the land, but to the inner nature.

The elves were inmortal whether they lived in Aman or Middle Earth.

Hobbits or men are mortal and they remain mortal, no matter where they are.

That's clear in the history of Numenor, the kings believe that by arriving to Aman they would become inmortal, but that wasn't true as their nature, as given by Iluvatar was to be mortal.

Frodo and Bilbo's lives were prolongued because they wore the ring, but they couldn't become inmortal, that was something that the Valar couldn't give him, only Iluvatar had the power for that.

[Enedhil]

Mortals remain mortal in Aman, but do they not get to 'chose' when they die - like Aragorn did?

Also - is there a Heaven for mortals? All well and grand if you're an Elf - but what about hobbits, dwarves and men? Skipped that bit hmm? [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

[Daniel Telcontar]

Men, at any rate, goes to the timeless halls to be with Eru, which I would presume is heaven. But how do you know that mortals cannot be immortal? In the Sil it says that Tuor becomes immortal, and if he can, why should not the Ringbearers, considering what they have done?

[Mankáno]

Daniel, regarding the destiny of men, dwarves of hobbits, it's not said what happens with them, it's said that not even Manwe knows their fate after they die, the thought of them going with Iluvatar is only a presuncion.

Regarding Tuor, again, it's never said that he become inmortal, not even that he was indeed admitted in Valinor or even got there.

The only fact given in the Silmarillion is that he sailed to the west with his wife Idril and nothing else was known of him or her.

Now, it says it is "believed" that he was admitted in Aman but it doesn't say he become inmortal. However it's said he was the only mortal man to be numbered among the Eldar, from that you could conclude that he become and elf himself.

Now, all those if are of course deliberate, it was Tolkien's intention not to be clear in this matter, as the Silmarillion and the LOTR were supposed to be written in Middle Earth, there were no way they could possibly know what happened in Aman after the Noldor left it at the begining of the first age. The few things known, as the Earendil trip are because some elves came with the army and told it to their friends, some of who stayed in Middle Earth for a while.

Now, assuming that Tuor was indeed admitted among the elves and become inmortal, I can only suppose an explanation.

First, the men and elves' fate were determined by Iluvatar, the valar couldn't change it but Iluvatar could. He did it in the case of Luthien and he could, at his will make an exception with Tuor. Why would he do that?

Well, Tuor was a choosen one, predestined to have a very important role, he was protected by Ulmo and maybe Ulmo asked Iluvatar for it and Iluvatar listened.

In addition, Earendil, Elwing and their children, because of their condition of half-elves were given the choice to belong to one race or the other, half-elves weren't in the music and their fate wasn't clear, so, Iluvatar allowed the Valar to make a decision and they gave them the choice, the choice was extended to their descendants and the Valar could have extended it also to their only mortal ascendant who was still alive: Tuor.

this is of course my own interpretation, there isn't anything in Tolkien's work that says that and he probably never thought of it.

Regarding Frodo it is different because there is indeed a letter from Tolkien that says he wasn't admitted for ever but only as a healing process for his soul, for a very long time, but not for ever.

[Daniel Telcontar]

There is a more boring explanation; Maybe Tolkien just thought it sounded cool that Tuor became immortal. And then he wanted some problems with the numenoreans, so he made Elrond and Elros half-elves to create some havoc. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
No, back to real life; You have to assume that Tour became immortal, because it is the only real difference between men and elves. Otherwise it would have no meaning, writing that he was counted like the Eldar. And if Eru meant that he was worthy of immortality, then would not the ringbearers? [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

[Mankáno]

well, as you said, this whole universe was created by Tolkien and he decided everything, in the case of Frodo there is a specific letter from Tolkien that says he didn't become inmortal.

Unfair? maybe but you can say that Tuor carry on an even more important task than Frodo, and he was married to an Elf and was the father of one of the greatest sons of Iluvatar, you could say that Beren should have given inmortality as well but, as it was settle by Iluvatar, the destiny of men wasn't to be inmortal and not everything was said in the music, the valar often would deal with situations that were known and then they would deal with Iluvatar, as the supreme being, Iluvatar didn't need to justify his actions, you could say that his decisions were beyond the understanding of elves, men or even valar, he could decide one way in the case of Tuor and a different way in the case of Frodo.

Of course, Iluvatar could have decided to give Frodo inmortality, but he didn't

[Child of the 7th Age]

Since we don't know what happens in the circles beyond the world, we really have no way of judging whether Tuor or Frodo actually got the better end of the deal. We at least have some images and discussion of the West, so we have some sense how the immortals there were doing. But the circles beyond the world are a big question mark, and there is sadly no way to know.

If we postulate that the circles beyond the world correspond in some meaningful way with Tolkien's own views on the universe as a Catholic, then perhaps we can assume that
an individual like Frodo would come out just fine, but in some undefinable way we can scarcely imagine.
sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[Mithadan]

Mankano is quite correct. It is not given to the Valar the power to strip men of the "Gift of Iluvatar". Frodo, Bilbo and Sam were allowed to travel into the West for healing, not for immortality.

[Elendur]

Do you think Frodo had to stay on Tol Eressea or would he be allowed onto the main island with all the other elves and the Valar?

[Mankáno]

This is a transcript from volume 10 of HoME, Morgoth's ring about the nature of elves and men.


[The] 'Fate of Men' was also later discussed by the Eldar, when
they had met Men and knew them. But they had little evidence,
and therefore did not know or assert, but 'supposed' or
'guessed'. One such supposition was that Elves and Men will
become one people. Another is that some Men, if they desire it,
will be permitted to join the Elves in New Arda, or to visit them
there -though it will not be the home of Men. The most widely
held supposition is that the fate of Men is wholly different, and
that they will not be concerned with Arda at all. f
At the end of this note my father wrote subsequently: 'But see full
treatment of this later in Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth.' This work
constitutes Part Four in this book.
(iii)
Fate of 'Immortal' Elves: ? to inhabit New Arda (or Arda
Healed). Probably not, in a physical sense. Since what is meant
by 'The Tale of Arda' seems to be this. The World and its Time
appears to begin and end simply because it is bounded, neither
infinite nor eternal. Its finite 'story' when complete will be, like a
work of art, beautiful and good (as a whole), and from outside,
sc. not in Time or its Time, it can be contemplated with wonder
and delight -especially by those who have taken part in its
'Tale'. Only in that sense will Elves (or Men) inhabit Arda
Complete. But New Arda or Arda Unmarred (Healed) would
imply a continuance, beyond the End (or Completion). Of that
nothing can be surmised. Unless it be this. Since the Elves (and
Men) were made for Arda, the satisfaction of their nature will
require Arda (without the malice of the Marrer): therefore
before the Ending the Marring will be wholly undone or healed
(or absorbed into good, beauty, and joy). In that region of Time
and Place the Elves will dwell as their home, but not be confined
to it. But no blessed spirits from what is still to us the future can
intrude into our own periods of Time. For to contemplate the
Tale of Arda the Blessed must (in spirit or whole being) leave the
Time of Arda. But others use another analogy, saying that there
will indeed be a New Arda, rebuilt from the beginning without
Malice, and that the Elves will take part in this from the
beginning. It will be in Ea, say.. they -for they hold that all
Creation of any sort must be in Ea, proceeding from Eru in the
same way, and therefore being of the same Order. They do not
believe in contemporaneous non-contiguous worlds except as
an amusing fantasy of the mind. They are (say they) either
altogether unknowable, even as to whether they are or are not,
or else If there are any intersections (however rare) they are only
provinces of one Ea.
At the head of the page on which this note stands my father wrote:
'But see Athrabeth': see (ii) above.

[Naaramare]

Daniel, regarding the destiny of men, dwarves of hobbits, it's not said what happens with them, it's said that not even Manwe knows their fate after they die, the thought of them going with Iluvatar is only a presuncion.

Actually, the dwarves themselves, being not one of the original Children at all, but created by Aule (although brought to true "life" by Illuvatar) believe that they go to a special place in Mandos set apart for them.

[Remmirath]

Laie! Good to see you. And whoever mentioned e.e cummings up there shall be my friend forever. I love his poetry.

Vanima: I'm a child of Jun '87 as well, and only when I started getting into Tolkien did I rarely ever hear the phrase, Frodo lives. But I like it. I think I'll have to get a bumper sticker of it. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Reyna Evergreen]

Yeah! Children of 1987 live on too!! ^^ Van, and all the others, I was born in August '87!!! Anyway, back to buisiness.

What Naaramare says is true. Eru had mery on Aule when he disobeyed his plan of first and second born. So, with this mercy (and maybe a tad of pity) he created a "heaven" apart, just for them, in the halls of Mandos. Pretty chic if you ask me.

Frodo lives on...wow, I didn't know that in the 60's that was a common graffiti purpose...me being a graffiti artist, that may be a good tip [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] ((no, adult 60's children, I DO NOT scribble on subway walls, I use things that are MINE or that ppl requested me to graffiti on!!!! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] ))

One more thing, I thought the phrase went "Boromir lives on!". Or is that one 21st Century line to support "Frodo lives!"?

[*Varda*]

Vrain, i also was born in November '86. Oh well. It would have been pretty cool to see the 60's and 70's. What i found disturbing was when i got an e-mail called Child of the Eighties and i actually remembered most of the things mentioned. *cringes as she remembers My Little Pony* (if anyone wants to see the e-mail PM me) [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Until i came to the Downs, i had never heard the term Frodo Lives! It would be quite cool to start using it again... but my friends would look at me weirdly... wait they do that already!

So.. what do you say? FRODO LIVES!

[Reyna Evergreen]

Too true, Varda. Same to me, they already think I'm crazy (but love me for it!).

But if they already think we're nuts, why not anyway? I've already done a few times randomly in the streets. I might be put into a comfy room with bouncy walls, but it's fun. ^^

FRODO LIVES!

i think he made it. and probaly lived a happy life. wonder if her ever got married? but i guess we will never know. Tolkien lives in his books. LONG LIVE J.R.R TOLKIEN!!!! ^-'

[Luthien_ Tinuviel]

how about "Tolkien Lives!"? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Reyna Evergreen]

FRODO LIVES!!!

And/Or

BOROMIR LIVES ON!!!

And/Or

TOLKIEN LIVES!!!

Seem good, yeah, all three of them should be used. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Amarantha Gamwich-Baggins]

wow this thread is (nearly) all over the place. To the first thing brought up, I'm pretty sure he lived. I wondered myself for a time if Frodo and the rest died and then in some way their "souls" sailed over, but I know better now. To the second or third or what ever, God I so now how some you guys feel! I was born 2/2/'88 and I so wish I was born ealier! I don't think the 70's or the 60's; the 70's were just sleezy and the 60's (to me) were just boring, being the daughter of two aged hippies(sp?) might have also had some thing to do with it. Maybe the early 80's or late late 70's. As far as the Frodo lives! thing.... don't know....I don't really like that for some reason (maybe the aged hippy parents and being so sick of nearly everything to do with that decade might have something to do with it).
And Birdland that song....what the hell?!?! Who was smokin' pot (or what ever substance) when they were writing that song about elvis?

[ July 02, 2002: Message edited by: Amarantha Gamwich-Baggins ]

[merlilot]

Hehe, I think Frodo became immortal. But thats just IMHO. And Sam too. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] *behaves...will not babble about Sam*

What, am I the only one glad that I missed the 60's and 70's? Child of Nov 85 here wants to live in the 40's and stuff...when Tolkien was still alive and publishing books. Although it would have been great fun to be a hippie....