Frodo and Bilbo

[Frodo Baggins]

Why didn't Frodo (me) and Bilbo get married. all the other hobbits did.??

[Elven-Maiden]

probly cuz both Frodo and Bilbo are guys. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Nufaciel]

I don't know. Maybe it was predetermined by destiny? Or maybe it had something to do with the One Ring? I really don't know.

[Elven-Maiden]

ooh! you mean not to each other!?!?

sorry! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

[Child of the 7th Age]

I guess Tolkien wanted to make sure they were free and clear to go off when Gandalf called. Not only do they not have wives, but they don't have living parents either, or any brothers or sisters. They do have lots of cousins.

Plus, what about heading out to the West from Grey Havens? You couldn't expect wives and children to pile onto the boats to sail West. They would have had to wait a long time the way Sam did until Rosie died. I don't believes Elves normally have their children sail West (do they?).

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[Nufaciel]

All Elves, children or otherwise are allowed to sail into the West. No others are allowed this. Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam are given this special privilege because they were bearers of the One Ring. Gimli was given this privilege because of his friendship with Legolas, and his desire to see Galadriel, who probably got this opportunity for him. Very few mortals were ever allowed to go into the West.

[Frodo Baggins]

Elven-Maiden, you are gross!!!

[Evenstar1]

I think the "life-paths" of both Bilbo and Frodo were sacred, rather than earthly. There were sort of tantamount to priests, in a way. They carried the burden of the Ring, which was their (sacred) duty, and which, in turn, took everything out of them that they had to give.

Sam, on the other hand, represented the earth-bound "life-path." While he, too, carried the Ring, it was only for a short period of time, and it didn't have the same effect on him that it did on Bilbo and Frodo.

[Nar]

Good post, Evenstar1, and welcome to the Downs. Post lots and enjoy yourself. (Been wanting to do that, thank you for the opportunity) I agree with you, at least in the case of Frodo, I felt his bachelorhood was an early indication of his tendencies to a spiritual path. On the other hand, I just felt Bilbo was a crusty old bachelor, set in his ways. Tolkien had a maiden aunt who went on mountain climbing adventures, even took him on one. She could have been a model for Bilbo. (Letters, #232)

I always like shrewd sound-heared maiden aunts. Blessed are those who have them or meet them. ... I was fortunate in having an early example: one of the first women to take a science degree. She is now ninety, but only a few years ago went botanizing in Switzerland. It was in her company (with a mixed party of about the same size as the company in the Hobbit) that I journeyed on foot with a heavy pack through much of Switzerland, and over many high passes. .. we were nearly destroyed by boulders loosened in the sun rolling down a snow-slope. ... That and the 'thunder-battle' - a bad night in which we lost our way and slept in a cattle-shed - appear in The Hobbit.

As to Frodo, however, I don't see him so much as a priest, more of a 'monk,' 'hermit,' ultimately 'pilgrim.' It took me a while to figure this out, because my own heritage is Episcopalian Protestant, so most of my experience of spiritual guides is of pastors, etc. -- similar to priests. There's not that much of a monastic tradition with us now (not that I know of, anyway). However, with other faiths, including but not limited to Tolkien's Catholicism, (Buddhists and Hindus leap to mind, for two big examples) there's more of a strong 'monastic' tradition, involving communal living by a rule, poverty and a lack of investment in personal possessions, contemplative activity, spiritual teaching and seeking, and celibacy. (I'm basing this description on the Medieval Catholic model I learned in History-- corrections welcome)

I find the monastic tradition more applicable to Frodo's type of spiritual seeking, and not just because Tolkien was Catholic. Frodo does not return to the Shire and take up a position as leader and spiritual guide-- he never does anything to which 'guiding a parish' would be applicable.

The monastic seeker ultimately journeys toward the truth alone, or in company with guides, disciples, and friends. He does not, however, take responsibility for a whole community in whatever spiritual state they happen to be as they pursue ordinary life. Any friends, disciples he/she reaches or teaches move on with him/her or leave him/her to pursue an 'ordinary' life. Those who leave may follow later, as Sam follows Frodo.

[ May 11, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]

[Evenstar1]

Thanks, Nar! Upon further reflection, I agree with you that the word "monastic" and its connotations are probably more appropriate in this context. (But please note that not all [Catholic] priests are pastoral in their duties, as in the case of Franciscans, Dominicans, etc, who wear the habit of monks and live in relative silence and isolation, but are priests, nonetheless.)

I guess I was getting at was more of a concept of Frodo's/Bilbo's "marriage" to their duties as Ringbearer, making them incapable of marriage to a female hobbit -- in a way similar to the way that priests/monks/etc. are "married" to the Church. (In Catholicism, the Church is considered the "Bride" to the priest.)

[Raefindel]

Elven-Maiden, you are gross!!!

Hey that's the way it sounded! if she hadn't said something like that I would have! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[Kalimac]

I'd like to second Rae and say that if Elven-Maiden (or Rae) had not made that comment, I would have. Heh heh heh...

Bilbo and Frodo seem to be rather different types even though they had bachelorhood in common; as someone said previously, Bilbo seems much more the ordinary "crusty old bachelor" type. He had gotten to the age of 51 before ever even seeing the Ring, and had showed no inclination to have a family, so you couldn't really say it's the Ring's influence. Frodo, OTOH, seems like he was a much more merry and sociable type before inheriting the Ring, and got a little more withdrawn and remote afterwards. Of course, Frodo was always more bookish than most hobbits. Hard to tell with him, since it's impossible to divine exactly what was due to Frodo's own character and what was due to the influence of the Ring. But with Bilbo we could probably say safely that he just wasn't the marrying kind. Nothing wrong with that, after all - what would all the hobbit-lads and hobbit-lasses do without an amusing bachelor uncle or two?

[Aosama, the Wandering Star]

I think Frodo and Bilbo didn't get married because they somehow knew, in the back of their minds, that they would want to go off on an adventure someday, and didn't want to break their possible wife or children's hearts. Maybe that, or the monastic influences mentioned above. I'm not picky.

[Tarthang]

I think Bilbo's bachelerhood could use a bit more analysis. He was a initially a Hobbit of the genteel end of society. By having his adventure, he tarnished his good reputation. Furthermore, after his adventure JRRT tells us in FOTR that he often had queer visitors in the form of passing by Elves and Dwarves. Thus, despite his unquestionable wealth his reputation remained tarnished due to his guest's as much as his adventuring. I don't imagine this behavior is anything a self respecting female Hobbit would have put up with.

[Elven-Maiden]

Thanks guys! I didn't mean to be gross, it was an honest mistake!

-Elven-Maiden

[Gimli Son Of Gloin]

I'd like to second Rae and say that if Elven-Maiden (or Rae) had not made that comment, I would have. Heh heh heh...

Count me in.

I'm not sure about Frodo, but I think Bilbo didn't get married because he knew he wanted to go on another adventure someday, and he couldn't take a female hobbit tramping all over creation killing dragons and such. Maybe Frodo had a desire to go adventuring too

'Some people!' exclaimed Frodo. 'You mean Otho and Lobelia. How abominable! I would give them Bag End and everything else, if I could get Bilbo back and go tramping in the contry with him. I love the Shire. but I begin to wish , somehow, that I had gone too. I wonder if I shall ever see him again.'

[Amarinth]

yeah, bilbo was the old crusty bachelor-type, whose attraction for adventure and travel possibly couldn't spare a teeny fraction for any other sorts of attraction. frodo was much too hurt by his experience. he had "the great sadness", like pat conroy's tom wingo, that could never be assuaged and nor touched by another human spirit, poor dearie.

[ElanorGamgee]

It seems to me that both Bilbo and Frodo were somewhat anti-social, or, when they did socialize with other Hobbits, spent time with the younger crowd. They seem to have been looked down on by the "proper," older, more traditional Hobbits. Maybe they were isolated from most female Hobbits in their age group and this contributed to their bachelor status.

[Daniel Telcontar]

I think you are somewhat right, EleanorGamgee, at least about the part of Frodo and Bilbo being looked down upon by the hobbits who were not were liberal in their way of thinking. But I do not think that Bilbo ever considered marrying after his journey to the Lonely Mountain. He had all the company he could need when thinking of his nephews and nieces (an uncle who is rich is always popular).
Maybe it was the same with Frodo. After his journey to Mount Doom he had no intentions of marriage. Just a thought.

[Arwen Imladris]

Elven-Maiden, you have a sick mind!

That's O.K., I see how you could get that.

Both Frodo and Bilbo were around 50 before they went on their journeys. Why didn't they marry before then?

[Child of the 7th Age]

These are all good ideas--crusty bachelor, spiritual monk, the way Frodo and Bilbo seem to have seen themselves as non-conformists and were regarded as such by the community.

I think perhaps we have to think of their decisions as a two-step process. First, there were those things that led both of them to remain as bachelors up to age 50 or so, before they went on their respective quests (their views of themselves as non-conformists). Then, there were those ideas and experiences which changed and shaped their personalities, in both cases reinforcing their earlier decisions to remain bachelors (the spiritual impetus of the Ring quest and Bilbo's evolution into the crusty ol bachelor figure).

I would also raise the serious issue of the physical, psychological, and spiritual state Frodo was in after Mount Doom. Despite fan ficion which postulates otherwise, I would say that, in many respects, Frodo had spiritually outgrown the Shire and had his mind on other things besides marriage and a family. Plus, the feelings of guilt and sorrow which still remained, in addition to the physical wounding, would, I believe, have made marriage impossible.

You know, there actually is one early draft of the first chapter of LOTR where Bilbo does marry. Bilbo marries Primula Brandybuck at age seventy-one. Bingo (later to be called Frodo) is his son. Bilbo and his wife disappeared from the Shire on Bilbo's 111th birthday. Then Bingo inherits Bag End and stays on another 33 years, gives a party, and then leaves Hobbiton (age 72). This was the third version of the frist chapter; by version 4 Bilbo was unmarried and had adopted Bingo. (Return of the Shadow, chapter 1)

It's interesting to see Tolkien's ideas slowly develop and change. Anyways, I can't see Bilbo marrying and I'm glad Tolkien changed his story line!

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[ May 11, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[Kuruharan]

It seems to me that both Bilbo and Frodo were somewhat anti-social

I wouldn't say anti-social, just independent. Actually, I think that Bilbo is a more independent character than Frodo. He never married and he did not have a life scarring experience like failing to throw the Ring into the fire. Of course, we don't know that Frodo would have married if he had not been crushed during the Quest. He was the independent type as well.

[Evenstar1]

Wow, Child! I didn't know that, about "Bingo" and such! V. cool to see how the work evolved! Thanks! (Yeah, I, too, am glad Bilbo never married!)

[Raefindel]

Marriage in Middle Earth just doesn't seem to be the way for all people like it is here and now. Most people now who don't marry are at least "looking". That was not so in Middle-Earth; being single was a perfectly normal option.

I hope all you single people won't jump on me now. I'm not saying you need to or should marry, just that most people seem to expect it.

[Frodo Baggins]

Bilbo Baggins marrying Primula Brandybuck??
Let's seee.... Primula is thirty years younger than Bilbo!!

[greyhavener]

I'm glad Tolkien changed "Bingo" to "Frodo". I don't think I could have taken him seriously with that B-I-N-G-O dog song or the senior citizen's gambling pursuit going through my head as I read!

I agree with those who have Bilbo labelled as the rather offbeat somewhat disreputable batchelor-adventurer. I think Frodo, the hobbit we meed in FOTR has the potential for traditional hobbit life in the shire complete with wife & kids. There already seems to be a genetic predisposition to wandering beyond the shire, but he basically loves the shire and considers it his home. Perhaps he would have found a female hobbit among the Tooks or Brandybucks up for the occassional trek had it not fallen to him to bear the ring.

The Frodo who evolves from Rivendell on seems to me to be a character changed by his quest and his relationships with beings and places outside his realm. Even in Rivendell he seems ready to return to the shire and get on with his life. But by then it's too late. Bilbo, on the other hand, seems happy to be done with the shire and quite at home with the elves.

I see a transformation throughout the last two books into that monk/pilgrim so well described previously. As the ring grows heavier and he is impacted by each character he meets Frodo the hobbit seems to be in the process of becoming Frodo the ringbearer. By the time he leaves for the West Frodo is completely out of his element in the Shire.

I think the point at which he really owns his role as ringbearer and sets off for Mordor alone is when Frodo truly lets go of any dreams he may have entertained of a normal shire life. As he travels through Mordor more and more of his personality is stripped away. He struggles to remain Frodo. By the time he reunites with Gandalf another Frodo has emerged that is less hobbit and more simply the essence of his individualness as a being. What remains is the part of him that makes him Frodo on the inside, still hobbit but hobbit transformed.

[Nar]

Greyhavener-- well said! I agree.

[alatar]

It's sad, from a genetic point of view, that Frodo did not marry or beget children. Though his genes were present in the community, this one exceptional individual may have changed the overall disposition of the Hobbit 'pool.' Sam's children were exceptional; how much better those of his Master?

I can understand why Frodo did not marry after his return - too messed up both physically and mentally to attend to such matters. Plus, like his uncle, he had seen female elves, and after that there's no going back to Hobbit women. But beforehand, if Frodo was not considering marriage, was there at least some lass he was becoming sweet on?

And to think that, after losing the One Ring in the Sammath Naur, he could have come home and put on one almost as terrible (i.e. ever misplace your wedding band? ).

[Morsul the Dark]

firstly yes I have left my engagement ring (my girlfriend got me one with runes on it its purty, and cool) at another store I was visiting instead of my normal store.

anyway she asn't happy, to be fair I knew EXACTLY where in the store I had left it... anyway

I think Bilbo didn't marry but was planning to, 50 is a very reasonable age to start looking and he was becoming quite settled if maybe a couple years went by he would have been married.

I think Frodo was just a bachelor by nature he hung out with merry and pippin all the time. Sam is the only one that even seems interested in marriage at the beginning of the tale

[Hakon]

I don't think Bilbo wanted to get married. I think he would have if he had never gone on the adventure in the Hobbit. His adventure led him to view the world differently and I think marriage never appeared to be something he would need or want after that adventure. As for Frodo, he was not ever going to have a family after the destruction of the ring. I think he knew this when he became the ring bearer. He knew he would never get a family by taking on that task.

I would also like to point out that this thread is from 2002.

[Morsul the Dark]

hey old threads can be good threads

and remember the other hobbits did think bilbo had gone and married at first

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Hakon

I don't think Bilbo wanted to get married. I think he would have if he had never gone on the adventure in the Hobbit. His adventure led him to view the world differently and I think marriage never appeared to be something he would need or want after that adventure. As for Frodo, he was not ever going to have a family after the destruction of the ring. I think he knew this when he became the ring bearer. He knew he would never get a family by taking on that task.

Are you saying that Bilbo already had had enough, having faced one Dragon?

I would also like to point out that this thread is from 2002.

Time is an artificial construct for some of us.

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by alatar

Are you saying that Bilbo already had had enough, having faced one Dragon?


Time is an artificial construct for some of us.

tchnically time is artificial for ALL of us... by the way you divorced?

Bilbo battled goblins trolls and dragons.... and then had to deal with the sacksville bagginses of course he was swamped, plus all the hobbit women thought he was a weirdy

[Hakon]

Originally Posted by alatar

Are you saying that Bilbo already had had enough, having faced one Dragon?

Yes. I am saying he had already had enough by facing one dragon, goblins, elves, and more. I doubt he was in the mood for marriage when it came down to it after all that. Plus when he left on his adventure he was not exactly a young hobbit. If I remember correctly he was in his thirties or forties (correct me if I am wrong).

Originally Posted by alatar

Time is an artificial construct for some of us.

I know it is an artificial construct. The thing is I am still young, I have yet to get to that part of life where time seems to fly by.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

tchnically time is artificial for ALL of us... by the way you divorced?

Nope. On the contrary, I'm very happily married. Just playing up to the typical husband stereotypes.

And I too lost my ring for a while. Also got it stuck in the gears of a car seat, and it got somewhat mutilated; luckily a goldsmith could fix it.

Note that we considered getting each other LotR-like rings, but this is way before the movies, and so no one knew what we were talking about, so we got something else (see attached).

Bilbo battled goblins trolls and dragons.... and then had to deal with the sacksville bagginses of course he was swamped, plus all the hobbit women thought he was a weirdy

That I can get. Though even the geekiest guy can be in love with another, even if that love is not returned.

Originally Posted by Hakon

I know it is an artificial construct. The thing is I am still young, I have yet to get to that part of life where time seems to fly by.

The story is that, while commuting, I was listening to LotR via audio book, and started thinking about Frodo's life before he left the Shire, and then wondered if he was warm to some Hobbit lass or two, or if this was even on his mind at the time (Sackville-Bagginses married quite young), and so thought about starting a new thread, posing the question. Before doing so, I figured that I had better search to see if this was already discussed - it was.

As you noted, the thread was from 2002. We are currently (methinks) in 2009. To get back to when the thread was fresh, I would need to create a ripple in time-space. By my calculations, this could be achieved by exploding the sun (and maybe Mercury, depending if you round up or down).

I could then be back in 2002 and participate in the thread. Good for me; bad for all of you in 2009 (if you ever see a message from me stating that you should stock up on batteries, can goods and warm clothing, and to dump all of your stock in sun tan lotion...). Hopefully, back in 2002 I would know not to explode the sun in 2009.

Or I could just resurrect this thread.

Anyway, I was just thinking about the Baggins' genes, and that Bilbo and Frodo never lived a domestic life.

[Hakon]

That I can get. Though even the geekiest guy can be in love with another, even if that love is not returned.

That is true. The thing is that Bilbo is a creature of habit, we see that in the Hobbit. I think that after one massive adventure he was ready to just go back to his routine. He did not want to change that routine he wanted to keep it the same after his massive adventure.

About that ring, it does sort of look like the one ring only much fancier.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by alatar

he had seen female elves, and after that there's no going back to Hobbit women

I wouldn't say that. Marrying a woman of your own kind does have its advantages - if only that you don't have to climb on a chair every time you want to kiss her.

[Hakon]

Well Gimli did not seem to mind the height issue when it came to love.

[Pitchwife]

No, he didn't, but that was romantic chivalry rather than the kind of love that might lead to marriage.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

No, he didn't, but that was romantic chivalry rather than the kind of love that might lead to marriage.

That and that she had a husband...

Bilbo, and even more so Frodo, were exceptional individuals. Sam, Merry and Pippin marry. Aragorn, Eomer, Eowyn and Faramir marry. The two hobbits' genes or avatars disappear in the next generation.

Think that the reason Bilbo doesn't get married is to keep him 'different' - unsettled - before he starts chasing Dwarves, and afterwards he's not really the focus of the story. Plus having a wife would complicate the LotR story, as he certainly would have had to share the secret of the Ring with her.

And how does he leave? What about watching your wife die while you continue on and on? Would he feel the same about leaving the Ring behind? Or would he succumb to despair when his wife departed?

The big question, is, could the Ringbearers have a greater love than the Ring? Would it share?

And Frodo, after his adventure, does not then need to began a love story. His life is that much more interesting as he must leave behind all those things that he struggled and sacrificed to save.