Did Elladan and Elohir Die or go to Valinor

[Mornie Alantie]

Just now my cousin told me that Elladan and Elohir chose to live mortal lives after their mother was waylaid by orcs and passed over the sea. But that was 1,500 years before the war of the ring. I personally don;t think it the did, but does anybody know where it says the chose to be mortal?

[Morwen Tindomerel]

You wanna start a fight or something? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

This is in fact a surprisingly touchy issue but the simple fact is we don't really know. Personally I agree with your cousin. IMO the twin's failure to accompany their father oversea indicates they, like their sister, have chosen Mortality. However Tolkien himself only says they 'delayed their choice' and gives no indication what that choice finally was, so one is free to believe otherwise if one prefers.

[Mornie Alantie]

Oh, I didn't know it was so touchy, But as seen by many of their deeds, they weren't their fathers puppets in the sense that they wouldn't just follow him around. they coulda and mighta left later like Legolas. That makes sense to thier caracter. But then they coulda stayed and became mortal to. But why would they get the choice of Mortality or Imortality and not the children of Elros? Now that I know its undecided and a big issue, my opinion went in between. But when did the choose mortality?

Why would they have a choice? Both their parents are elves. They have man blood...but if we go by that logic, then all the line of Elros should also have the choice between mortality and immortality, as they all have elvish blood.

[The Saucepan Man]

Why would they have a choice? Both their parents are elves.

No, Elladan and Elohir were the sons of an Elf (Celebrian) and a Half-Elf (Elrond) and so had mortal blood. By default, they would normally share the fate of Men. But, like their father, they were given the choice between mortality and immortality. Although they were to exercise that choice by the time their father left for Valinor, they appear to have been given a time extension and we never learn of which choice they made.

As for the descendants of Elros, they were bound by Elros' choice. They were therefore mortal (as were the descendants of Aragorn and Arwen).

I found this and other threads (like the search function [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) to be very helpful in answering all my questions on this issue.

[Legolas]

But why would they get the choice of Mortality or Imortality and not the children of Elros? Now that I know its undecided and a big issue, my opinion went in between.

Because they were the children of entirely mortal parents. Elladan and Elrohir had a wholly Elvish mother in Celebrian, and thus a renewed Elvish strain. Tolkien says so in Letter No. 153.:

The view is that the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will share. Elros chose to be a King and 'longaevus' but mortal, so all his descendants are mortal, and of a specially noble race, but with dwindling longevity: so Aragorn (who, however, has a greater life-span than his contemporaries, double, though not the original Númenórean treble, that of Men). Elrond chose to be among the Elves. His children - with a renewed Elvish strain, since their mother was Celebrían dtr. of Galadriel - have to make their choices.

He also makes it clear that Ell./Elr. had the oppurtunity to delay their choice at least a little past the departure of Elrond with "[the choice] which may be delayed but not permanently" and other lines.

There are so many threads about this. Searching would bring you results instantly. There's even an article about it:
http://www.barrowdowns.com/faq_halfelves.asp

[ April 24, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Atariel]

I don't know where I picked this up from, but I read somewhere that Elrond and Arwen had a bitter farewell, and, as you know, after this Elrond returned to Rivendell. He left with the other ringbearers in the white ship, in the belief that Elladan and Elrohir would catch up with him later on. "But then he was torn from his sons at the last". (That was the only part I remembered from the qoute, but hopefully you'll get the gist of it.)

[Cazoz]

Arwen Evenstar remained also, and she said farewell to her brethren. None saw her last meeting with Elrond her father, for they went up into the hills and there spoke long together, and bitter was their parting that should endure beyond the ends of the world.

This is from the chapter: Many Partings, probably the quote you're referring to.

Hardly anything is said of the two brothers anywhere, but I believe in the appendices it says that the sons went back to Rivendell and were presumably involved in the errands concerning Mirkwood, re-establishing Mirkwood as Eryn Lasgalen with their grandfather Celeborn and obviously with Thranduil up north. This was after Galadriel (again with Celeborn I believe) effectively destroyed Dol Guldur after the fall of Sauron and the evils of Mirkwood were largely dealt with.

After that, Celeborn lived in Lorien for a while and then went back to Rivendell presumably because there were still Elves living there (as well as his grandsons) and also many valuable artefacts and documents to guard, maintain and update. The last we hear of him is this quote from the prologue:

"but there is no record of the day when at last he sought the Grey Havens, and with him went the last living memory of the Elder Days in Middle-earth."

This does not say anything about Elladan and Elrohir, but seeing as they were obviously close family and also they had been living together in Rivendell for many years, estranged from Elrond, Celebrian and Galadriel (father/son-in-law, daughter/mother and wife/grandmother respectively) I would like to assume that the sons left with Celeborn. After all, if this is even after Arwen had died, there would be nothing left for them in Middle Earth and no real memory of their kin, lineage and importance. They would have probably become accustomed to living with their grandfather and I doubt they or he would have wanted to make the journey West alone (presumably with many treasures from Rivendell) so I personally think they went over to Valinor with Celeborn after they felt their 'love affair' with Middle Earth was over.

More similar to the Dunedain than Elf Lords in many ways, they roamed the lands often and no partners were ever mentioned concerning them. The Rangers will have disappeared once Aragorn became King, so really was there any good reason they would have chosen mortality?

[Morwen Tindomerel]

Excuse me? The Rangers *disappear* after Aragorn becomes King? Whatever makes you think that?

Sauron has fallen, but just as in the case of Morgoth his creatures remain. All the Orcs in the Misty Mountains, and Trolls in the Shaws and Wargs and Dragons and what have you won't just evaporate, they will have to be hunted and fought for decades, even generations - not to mention all the deluded Darkness worshipping Men. Aragorn is going to need his Rangers's special skills more than ever now that he has the Reunited Kingdome to defend and patrol.

The Twins have been fighting alongside their Mortal kin for a long time now. It is quite possible they have come to identify more strongly with Men than Elves. They do ride with the Grey Company after all, rather than going to join their grandparents' battle against Dol Guldur, allying themselves with Men rather than Elves in the final battles.

[Cazoz]

I wasn't referring to the Rangers disappearing in terms of thin air and their duties, more the tag of 'Rangers' itself. With the Re-united Kingdom, and Aragorn's promise (and subsequent undertaking) of sorting things out in the North, I don't think the Rangers would have remained so. I believe they would have had more official posts and tasks, based in Eregion and out of Annuminas. After all, the Shire and Bree were to be left to their own devices.

And yes, the sons will have identified more with Men on their travels (I considered the Grey Company too) but in the end they're with their grandfather. This isn't to say that they still weren't in close companionship with their mortal comrades and friends but simply that when all was said and done they chose to reside with their grandfather, thus essentially renewing their Elven allegiances (I almost wrote preferences, but that would be speculative and too far-fetched). So as the age of Men begun and the need for their secretive, thankless patrols diminished and the World was somewhat 'legitimised' through a new King and the re-unity, I do not think that their services would be expected (not that they ever were, perhaps with exceptions such as Elrond) and looked for. After all, isn't the whole point of this era the diminishing of the Elves in ME and the time for Men and Hobbits to be self-serving and self-sufficient, to be able to handle their affairs and look after themselves without the intervention of the Wise?

This would of course include Elladan and Elrohir if they did choose mortality, but unlike Elros and his descendents they would not have had the important position, stature and dominion of Kings; they were from the wrong branch! I am not speculating that they would be obsessed with ambition (would they have split a Kingdom in the manner of Elendil in regards to the domains of Isildur and Anarion!?) but Elros played an important part and took on a huge responsibility when he chose mortality and came into the throne of Numenor. No such responsibility or place would the sons have in the FA, as Aragorn was the undisputed heir to the throne. And assuming they are very wise and strong (given their lineage) would it really have been equitable to have them as mere counsellors and war captains to Aragorn and their younger sister when they might have been greater? Talk about selling yourself short! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ April 28, 2003: Message edited by: Cazoz ]

[Morwen Tindomerel]

But their prospects in Aman are no better. The Noldor and the Teleri have their own kings and everybody and everything is under the dominion of the Valar. Elladan and Elrohir are used to active lives full of challenge, and they are definitely not going to find that in the West.

But as I said at the begining of this thread, there's no real proof either way. The opinion that the Twins eventually went to Valinor with Grandpa is every bit as legitimate as the view that they became Mortal, and vice-versa.