Hobbits as Eru's race chosen to bear the Ring

[Sharkû]

Please continue the discussion started in this thread here.

[Birdland]

OK.

"...I regard Arwen and Aragorn as the most important of the Appendices; it is part of the essential story, and is only placed so, because it could not be worked into the main narrative without destroying its structure: which is planned to be 'hobbito-centric', that is, primarily a study of the ennoblement (or sanctification) of the humble."

J.R.R. Tolkien in a letter to Michael Straight, New Republic editor - January 1956

Sharku - I’m torn, since you have posted this incredibly detailed reponse in one thread, but asked that the discussion be continued in another. So here I am.

I included the above quote from Tolkien’s letters because the last sentence seems to sum up the major theme of the book: “…a study of the ennoblement (or sanctification) of the humble.” If I may address some of your own comments,found here: here

It is of special importance here to note that when Tolkien speaks of the hobbits being “made” in special ways, he is talking in literary terms. This is also undoubtedly one of the most important argument to consider when refuting the “chosen people” theory.

First off, let’s remember that Tolkien “made” every creation in his books: Men, Elves, Eru, Hobbits and all. Any argument or speculation about any character in Tolkien’s work can be refuted by simply stating “He did it ’cause Tolkien made him do it.” But if we only went with this reasoning, there would be no reason for this website. It would also be an insult to the author. Tolkien chose to make one of his humble Hobbit creations the hero of his tale for a reason. He also chose to imply in the book, on several occasions, that this Hero was chosen to fulfill a certain destiny by Tolkien’s other creation: Eru.

As I have stated before: Frodo did not just drop out of the sky. In order for Frodo to fulfill the destiny that Eru has chosen for him, his very existence would have to be so unobtrusive and unimportant that his very race was regarded with little but contempt, not only by Sauron, but the rest of the world in general. Now that takes some “planning“.

Also, there is nothing in fact that makes hobbits more “chosen” or special than the other Children of Eru; certainly not in their skills or appearance, and not so in their circumstances, which are not supernatural in any way.

Why is it assumed by you that a “race” would have to demonstrate some types of supernatural powers in order to be granted a special status by a Higher Power? It could be argued that the Hobbits very lack of “skills” or “supernatural” abilities would be the reason that they are “chosen“. Indeed, isn’t that the whole point that Tolkien was trying to make?

Gandalf, being the buddy of Manwe, can be assumed to have some deep knowledge and insight on the ways of the world.

I beg to differ on this point: In Unfinished Tales Tolkien is quoted as writing: “For it is said indeed that being embodied the Istari had need to learn much anew by slow experience, and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar of, for which…they yearned exceedingly.” (The Istari, p. 390) So Tolkien suggests that The Istari were not all-knowing and infallible, and certainly did not have “total insight in the ways of the world”.

In Unfinished Tales, Gandalf is regarded as being on of the “lesser” Istari, weaker, smaller, older, and unassuming. He even questions whether he is up to the task that the Valar have sent him on. (Only Círdan recognizes that there may be more to Gandalf than meets the eye.) Doesn’t Gandalf’s story, in a way, reflect the very story of the Halfling race? And Gandalf does not strengthen his case by taking up with the Halflings, the only one of The Wise to do so. Saruman holds him in contempt for it. Even Radagast sneers at him for it! And yet Gandalf feels called to continue this association down through the centuries. To me, that suggest that Hobbits were very much a part of Gandalf’s “mission”, though even he doesn’t seem to understand why until the Ring shows up.

Also note that while Gollum is able to remember sucking eggs with his grandmother, he apparently does not recognize Bilbo as being of the same race as himself, which makes it highly likely that the hobbits evolved quite much in just the few centuries that separate Gollum’s and Bilbo’s birth. Would that mean that a part of the hobbit folk was “chosen” and the other part only “half-chosen” (but still chosen enough to find the Ring)? Of course not.

Why not? I only say that Eru deigned that a race called Hobbits would have some important role in the the battle against Sauron, In no way doe that eliminate the fact that Hobbits would change or evolve.

Also it would mean that Tolkien would have had Eru intervening gravely into the affairs of the Third Age both on his own and without the apparent knowledge of the Valar. The Legendarium tells us that Eru did intervene very rarely and only in cataclysmic dimensions. This definitely was not one, more than two thousand years before the Ring would have eventually been destroyed. Added to this, I do not suppose that the Music of the Ainur would extend in such great detail to such a time concerning Men (for hobbits are no other), who are, by definition in the mythology, free from the structure of the Music. Only dealing with Elves, such as Beren, Túrin, and Bilbo had, can entangle mortals in the tighter webs of the Music and of Fate.

Tolkien refers to The Lord of the Rings as being “hobbit-centric”. The Silmarillon is definitely “Elven-centric”. The fate of the Simarils it tied up with the fate of the Elves. The fate of the One ring is tied up with the fate of all the races of Middle Earth. Sounds pretty cataclysmic to me.

I think our concepts of what it means for a god to interfene differs greatly, You seem to regard intervention as some “Deus ex Machina” moment. I myself regard it more in light of the old saying that the fluttering of a butterfly’s wings in South America can cause a hurricane in New England. Both suggest intervention by a higher power, but my approach is a tad more “holistic“. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Who is to say that if it was Eru’s intention that a Hobbit be the cause of the final overthrow of Sauron, that he may not have been planning for this moment clear back to the very beginnings?. Tolkien stresses that Eru’s people, the Valar, do not have a complete knowledge of the Music of Eru. Doesn’t that suggest to you that the Halfling folk may have been covered in there someplace, (for at least a couple of bars, anyway.)

My speculation that Hobbits may have come into being by Design is based on the fact that Tolkien stresses so much through the book that Hobbits are forgotten and unknown, a perfect “secret weapon. As Child wrote to me: “Why would he (Tolkien) do this unless it had some significance?”

Then, there is the “fact” that, out of all the people of Middle-Earth who do tend to think Hobbits have some worth, two of them turn out to be the most powerful figures in that world, and the most closely connected with The One. Gandalf and Tom Bombadil. Gandalf even suggest that he “knows more about their origins than Hobbits do themselves.“ Why, out of all the Istari, would Gandalf show such an interest in such a lowly people for so many centuries, even risking scorn and rididule for this interest? I feel that there is more to it than that Gandalf is a “nice old man“.

Yes, speculation is fun. My speculation that Tolkien’s deity may have “chosen” a Hobbit to overthrow the Dark Lord is, and therefore arranged for Hobbits themselves to appear in Middle-Earth is only that - speculation. But I feel it is based on many subtle suggestions that Tolkien made in his master work. Granted, I may be coloring it with my own views and belief systems, but isn’t that what you, Burrahobbit, and Mhoram are doing as well? You may not see it, but others - even others who have studied the text as thoroughly as yourself - do.

[ November 10, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

[Sharkû]

"My speculation that Tolkien’s deity may have “chosen” a Hobbit" -- a hobbit, that's the point. Pointers to hobbits as a whole people are considerably less.

[burrahobbit]

God may well work in mysterious ways, but Eru doesn't. Eru is not subtle.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Eru is not subtle.

Burrahobbit--

Whoa, whoa! Such a general statement is way beyond the context of this small thread, but I beg to differ.

The whole idea of using music to account for the creation of Arda suggests layers upon layers of complexities and subtleties, since that is the nature of music itself, especially with melodies interwoven as suggested in the Silm.

This probably should await more complete discussion for another thread. But I don't think your statement is a given.

sharon

[Birdland]

Eru is not subtle

I think you are confusing Eru with his servants, the Valar. They are definitely not subtle.

Sharkú (why did you have to choose a name that requires a character map every time you want to type it? [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] ) If you are going to "choose" Frodo the Hobbit, then you have to "choose" to have Hobbits around so that there will be a Frodo when the time is right.

[ November 10, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

[burrahobbit]

<u>THINGS THAT ERU DID</U>

Made the Ainur.

Made Themes.

Made the Universe. Did it all at once. "It is," and It was.

Advised Manwe.

Didn't bother about Morgoth destroying the Lamps.

Gave Dwarves sentience.

Made Elves. One day they weren't there, the next they were.

Didn't do anything about Orcs, his greatest grief.

Didn't do anything about Morgoth destroying the Trees.

Made Men. Same as Elves, above.

Didn't specially create Hobbits.

Didn't aid the overthrow of Morgoth.

Gave Luthien mortality.

Gave Tuor immortality.

Made a decree on Half-elves.

Destroyed Numenor.

Made the earth round (if it wasn't before; if so, greatly changed it).

Didn't aid the overthrow of Sauron.

[ November 10, 2002: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]

[burrahobbit]

I think you are confusing Eru with his servants, the Valar. They are definitely not subtle.

I would say the same of you. Do you forget the varied acts of Ulmo? He used a trickle of water to change the path of the world, where Eru destroyed Numenor to achieve the same goal.

The Istari, lest you forget, are the machinations of the Valar, not of Eru. They took millennia to do what they set out to.

If you are going to "choose" Frodo the Hobbit, then you have to "choose" to have Hobbits around so that there will be a Frodo when the time is right.

Men have Free Will, this precludes such a thing. Frodo only lost his free will when he started hanging out with Gandalf, this does not mean that Drogo ever lost his.

[Birdland]

Made the Ainur...Made Themes...Made the Universe. Did it all at once. "It is," and It was...Didn't bother about Morgoth destroying the Lamps...Didn't do anything about Orcs, his greatest grief...Didn't do anything about Morgoth destroying the Trees...Didn't aid the overthrow of Morgoth.

Burrahobbit - Doesn't your list suggest a deity who wasn't in to "sweating the small stuff". The Valar may get their knickers in a twist over Trees, Simarils, Orcs, etc., but Eru, who knew all the themes of his Music, not just some, let them be. Why? Because he knows how it's all going to come out. And being sad about certain occurances, (like Morgoth shaping Orcs), does not elimiate the necessity of them being part of of an all-encompassing "plan".

Didn't aid the overthrow of Sauron.

Excuse me, but he did aid in the overthrow of Sauron. Tolkien suggest this again and again. How? By choosing Frodo the Unlikely, silly Burrahobbit. And for Frodo to be there...oh, never mind!

[Birdland]

Frodo only lost his free will when he started hanging out with Gandalf, this does not mean that Drogo ever lost his.

So are you saying that Frodo freely chose to give up his free will? Or that Gandalf "robbed" him of his free will?

Did Drogo decide to conceive the Ring Bearer of his own free will? (Skipping over the "gleam in his eye" part).

[ November 10, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

[burrahobbit]

Burrahobbit - Doesn't your list suggest a deity who wasn't in to "sweating the small stuff".

It certainly does. I think that was my whole poiint.

Excuse me, but he did aid in the overthrow of Sauron. Tolkien suggest this again and again. How? By choosing Frodo the Unlikely, silly Burrahobbit.

Really? If you are willing to lump Morgoth in with the other small things, why not also Sauron? Are you saying, instead, that Eru did indeed sweat small things?

So are you saying that Frodo freely chose to give up his free will? Or that Gandalf "robbed" him of his free will?

A bit of both. Keeping in mind, of course, that that Gandalf also lacks Free Will.

Did Drogo decide to conceive the Ring Bearer of his own free will?

Not applicable.

[burrahobbit]

I'd like to address the issue of Music being subtly executed.

Frankly, I couldn't agree more. One must keep in mind, however, that to a great extent Eru did not take part in thee music. The overall themes were ceratainly his, I would never question that, but all of the subtle bits, the melodies and what have you were the work of the Ainur.

So once more we have an example of Eru doing Grand Obtuse Things, while the Valar are doing things that are less grand, though more subtle.

[elfling]

This may be off base now but I've wanted to post this since I read some of this befor it moved. I think man is the "chosen race", why because they are the ones to whom they must look to for hope as Gandolf says in FoTR. Man is the race witch survives in ME. All the rest fade or leave. So if Hobbits are from or related to man as many beleive to be what JRRT intended(I've seen many convincing JRRT quotes on this) then they(Hobbits) are indeed part of the "chosen race" though they fade, maybe because of the same qualities which make them capable of carring the Ring, their resilence, mirth, love of earth and lack of desire to have power or to rule others. Man is what is left to rule over ME

[Birdland]

Elfling, (and others) - The term "chosen race" is not exactly what I meant, if you are thinking in terms of "favored" or "special" status. The opinion I expressed - and seems to have gotten everyone into a tizzy - is that Eru, anticipating or foreseeing events in the Third age, created or caused Hobbits to be, since the very nature of Hobbits would enable them to resist the temptation of the One Ring, and the dismissive attitude of the Great would put them "below" suspicion.

Rather then say that they were chosen by Eru, I guess a better term would be that they were Ilúvatar's "secret weapon".

[burrahobbit]

I get you, Birdland, but that idea goes against Tolkien's conception og Man. Men are not bound to Arda as Elves are, and as such they are not bound to the Music which Arda is made of. The only time that a Man becomes entangles in the Music is when he has a lot to do with any of the Immortals. Numenor, as a whole, had a lot to do with the Immortals, and so it was bound as a whole to fate. Hobbits, on the other hand, have absolutely nothing to do with any immortals as a whole. I can say this with absolute certainty. Hobbits had nothing to do with Immortals. Hobbits know of Elves, certainly, but Elves do not know of Hobbits. Even the Elves of Elrond's house have trouble telling the difference between Bilbo and Aragorn when they are singing. (Check the index for LINDIR.)

Hobbits are not fated for anything.

[Birdland]

Hobbits are not fated for anything.

Except to destroy the One Ring and save the world. Other than that, you're right, not much.

[burrahobbit]

Support your claim.

[Birdland]

Already have.

[burrahobbit]

With text? With things that Tolkien said?

[Keneldil the Polka-dot]

Dammit. I hate it when I have to agree with burrahobbit.

[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Legolas]

Just a comment on the side...

Gandalf is regarded as being on of the “lesser” Istari, weaker, smaller, older, and unassuming.

Regarded as such only by himself, and his incarnation's physical appearance. Manwe believed in him enough to call only him out, while the others either volunteered, or were brought along upon request.

[Saurreg]

Regarded as such only by himself, and his incarnation's physical appearance. Manwe believed in him enough to call only him out, while the others either volunteered, or were brought along upon request.

I agree. In the Valaquenta, Gandalf/Olorin was said to be the wisest of the maiars. Perhaps this wisdom gave him a sense of humanity, understanding of his own limitations and most importantly the ability to differentiate right from wrong. The other Istaris were most probably chosen for their abilities and powers but I think Manwe chose Olorin because he felt that his sense of righteousness and street-wise would do him credit. Remember, in the Unfinished Tales, Olorin professed that he was not worthy because he knew and felt fear, that was the quality Manwe deemed most important.

As for my thought on this thread, I would like to think of it as Tolkien's way of reminding his readers that not all who shape the way of life must be great and powerful. Very often it would be the lesser beings, the meek ones that would make a difference.

[Mister Underhill]

Hey burra,

I’ve been out of the loop for a few weeks but in (partially) catching up, I’ve noticed you’ve been on a hobby-horse about Eru not being subtle in this and other threads. But several things occurred to me:

One must keep in mind, however, that to a great extent Eru did not take part in thee music. The overall themes were ceratainly his, I would never question that, but all of the subtle bits, the melodies and what have you were the work of the Ainur.

I wonder what makes you say this with such conviction and certainty. Don’t Silm references like “And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me...” and “This is your minstrelsy; and each of you shall find contained herein, amid the design that I set before you, all those things which it may seem that he himself devised or added. And thou, Melkor, wilt discover all the secret thoughts of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of the whole and tributary to its glory.” contradict you?

Also, I’d like to see you support claims like these:

The only time that a Man becomes entangles in the Music is when he has a lot to do with any of the Immortals.

... Gandalf also lacks Free Will.

Frodo only lost his free will when he started hanging out with Gandalf...

Lastly, I’m not sure what definition of “subtle” you’re working off, but several of these from OED seem to apply to Tolkien’s Head Honcho and his creations:

Fine or delicate, esp. to such an extent as to elude observation or analysis.

Of craftsmen, etc.: Skilful, clever, expert, dexterous.

Of things: Characterized by cleverness or ingenuity in conception or execution; cleverly designed or executed, artfully contrived.

Of persons, their faculties, actions: Characterized by penetration, acumen, or discrimination. Now with implication of (excessive) refinement or nicety of thought, speculation, or argument.

Working imperceptibly or secretly.

[burrahobbit]

Good call, Underhill. I was waiting for somebody to catch that. My harping on is just in threads related to this one, though. This thread stems directly from another, etc.

contradict you?

Praps. Ainur as instruments of Eru was an argument that I though of while writing my various posts. Ainur are subtle, so Eru is subtle?

Fine or delicate, esp. to such an extent as to elude observation or analysis.

That one.

[ November 18, 2002: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]

[Mister Underhill]

Fine or delicate, esp. to such an extent as to elude observation or analysis.

Then what you’re asking for is a contradiction in terms. That is, you want someone to quote unequivocal proof of Eru’s hand in this or that matter, but by definition, any subtle moves by Eru defy demonstration of unequivocal proof.

Tolkien frequently suggests and hints that Eru subtly created the circumstances which brought about Sauron’s downfall in LotR. “The Quest of Erebor” and especially its Appendix in UT come as close as anything I can think of to saying outright that Eru subtly wove the web. The same writings more or less support that Bilbo and Frodo, at least (and in Gandalf’s estimation), were fated for their roles:

"In that far distant time I said to a small and frightened Hobbit: Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker, and you therefore were meant to bear it. And I might have added: and I was meant to guide you both to those points. To do that I used in my waking mind only such means as were allowed to me, doing what lay to my hand according to such reasons as I had..." (emphasis Tolkien’s)

“They [the Hobbits] had begun to forget: forget their own beginnings and legends, forget what little they had known about the greatness of the world. It was not yet gone, but it was getting buried: the memory of the high and the perilous. But you cannot teach that sort of thing to a whole people quickly. There was not time. And anyway you must begin at some point, with some one person. I dare say he was 'chosen' and I was only chosen to choose him; but I picked out Bilbo.”

This last is especially informative, and contradicts arguments that Bilbo got caught up in Fate/the Music/whatever because of his association with Gandalf. It was the other way around.

[burrahobbit]

you want someone to quote unequivocal proof of Eru’s hand in this or that matter, but by definition, any subtle moves by Eru defy demonstration of unequivocal proof.

HA HA HA.

I disagree with your interpretation of The Quest of Erebor. Gandalf was chosen to choose, but did he have to choose specifically Bilbo? The answer could very well be yes without contradicting me. If a mortal becomes fated, that fate extends backwards in time as well as forward. Bilbo had a fate before he ever met Gandalf, because eventually he would meet Gandalf et al.

[ November 18, 2002: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]

[Mister Underhill]

Gandalf was chosen to choose, but did he have to choose specifically Bilbo?

Yes, if you're still standing by your "Gandalf also lacks Free Will" contention.

If a mortal becomes fated, that fate extends backwards in time as well as forward. Bilbo had a fate before he ever met Gandalf, because eventually he would meet Gandalf et al.

I don't get what you're trying to say here.