The weakness of man

[Evisse the Blue]

After I got tired of giggling insanely over MovieElrond's corny line: "Men are weak" (mostly because of its Matrix allusion), it got me thinking of the general objections of ME men (with the exception of Aragorn and Faramir) when it came to Gandalf's theory of sending two halflings to Mordor to destroy the ring.

This basically can be summarized as folows:
<We know the ring is evil, and using it is wrong. On the other hand, we know that if Sauron gets it, things are going to turn quickly from bad to the worst we can conceive. That's why we cannot take the insane risk of letting it fall into his hands again. One chance is all we get We must seize it: either use the Ring, or hide it for the time being.>

And their take on things is oh so logic and reasonable - in the light of theirlimited life span. For them, it is in this lifetime that they must win or lose. While Gandalf, who is a Maia, and the Elves, who are immortal - ANd they can sail west anytime perceive things differently: if Sauron gets the ring back, he may be made to lose it yet again, in 1.000 years or so. But then, the children's children's children (born and raised in slavery) of the men who made that decision 1.000 years ago will be ashes and bones.

Men are NOT weak, they simply calculate the costs and benefits of an important (and irreversible) action differently, especially if they know it will affect not only them but their descendants also.

They put a lot of faith in reason (how very true, for modern man, too) while Gandalf and the Elves tend to rely on Fate (makes sense, they've seen it at work for ages).

Which goes to show that, when you have to make an important decision, you don't have to be smart up here <points to head> but down here <points to heart>.

well, just needed to let this out. turned out a much longer post than originally intended, sorry. but it makes for some light reading [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Evisse the Blue]

Up here : points to head;
Down here : points to heart

Just in case any of you gets some weird ideas [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[Arwen Imladris]

Well, obviously men are not weak, we are still around arn't we? The hobbits, dwarves and elves aren't.

[Mithuial]

"Do you hear that, Mr. Baggins. That is the sound of inevitability. The sound of your death."

k, I couldn't resist, but I was watching FotR and kept thinking of that line in the Matrix, and kept thinking of the doom of men, and wondering if elves ever really even began to understand it. Do you think they did?

[Legolas]

"Well, obviously men are not weak, we are still around aren't we?"

We didn't win the War of Ring all by ourselves, though, dear.

[Evisse the Blue]

Come to think about it, Tolkien (either consciously or unconsciously) suggests that both the big folk and the small folk (i.e. the mortals) should trust their hearts over their heads as the latter 'are not the best part of them' [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Take the classic scene when Sam learns that Frodo is still alive and thinks:
"You fool, he isn't dead, and your heart knew it".

Or the time when Gollum attracks Frodo on his way to Mt Doom and Sam hesitates whether he should kill him or not:

It would be just to slay this tracehrous, murderous creature (...)and also it seemed the only safe thing to do. But deep in his HEART there was something that restrained him.

And we all know how crucial that 'something that restrained him' proved to be for the success of the quest.

Another example: when the people of Gondor anxiously await Aragorn & co to return victorious or no from their last battle with the forces of Mordor. Although their reason - and even the weather tell them to expect bad news, they

sang for the joy that welled up in their hearts from what source they could not tell.

Faramir expresses that very accurately at the same moment in time, when he sits with Eowyn on the walls of the city:

The reason of my waking mind tells me that great evil has befallen and we stand at the end of days. But my heart says nay: and all my limbs are light, and a hope and joy are come to me that no reason can deny.

He was in love, and so he listened to his heart, rather than his reason, and the former proved also the wiser.

I guess this is what I was hinting at with my pathetically ambiguous first post on this topic. What do you think?

[theWhiteLady]

That was a beautiful post, Evisee! I agree completely [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Well, obviously men are not weak, we are still around arn't we? The hobbits, dwarves and elves aren't

Arwen Imladris: I certainly hope you don't mean to imply that the elves, dwarves and hobbits were weak [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Their time was simply past, and the domination of men at hand. That the elves had to forsake M-e has always wrung my heart; it is a pity we could not have co-existed and benefited from their wisdom.

Mithuial: I believe that the elves came to almost envy the gift, or Doom, of men. The bondage of immortality was surely wearing and full of pain at times. To escape forever, as men could, would have been a relief. As it says in the Sil by the messengers of Manwe to the men of Numenor: 'Yet that is to them neither reward or punishment, but the fulfilment of their being. They cannot escape, and are bound to this world, never to leave it so long as it lasts, for tis life is theirs... Thus you escape, and leave the world, and are not bound to it, in hope or weariness. Which of us, therefore, should envy the others?'

[Arwen Imladris]

I certainly hope you don't mean to imply that the elves, dwarves and hobbits were weak

No, I did not mean that. There are and were so many dangers in ME, to survive the had to have some strenghth. They did not win the war of the ring by themselves, but remember what Gandalf said in the movie? "In men we must place our hope". When everyone else had pretty much backed off, men stayed with it. Yes the elves kind of had to leave, and they had also quite done there part already. Elves are really more powerful then men, they are imortal for one thing, but just because of that doesn't mean that men are weak.

[Mithuial]

I really don't think elves are made like men. They must have a different perception of time to live forever and not go crazy. They did say that the Doom of Man was a blessing, and I can probably agree with them, but Eru must have designed them completely different because can you imagine what it would be like if from this point on you just continued to live eternally?

[lindil]

In HoME 10 [ the most imortant of the HoME books imo] Morgoth's Ring. We are treated to the 'Athrabeth Finrod ha Andreth' a 30 or so page discussion between Finrod and a mortal 'wise woman' who had been i love w/ one of Finrod's brothers. The discussion center's entirely around the 'gift of Men' and the Human and Elvish understanding of it. I can not praise it enough so i won't try.

But I encourage anyone who doesn't have them to get 10-12 in HB while they are still out as you will read and read them many times over.

[Elenna]

I don't think Elrond meant men are weak, as in physical strength. Unfortunately, not being of the Eldar, they don't have a lot of the foresight that made elves so strong.

Plus, look at Isildur. If that's your example of men, then, by gum it, men ARE weak.

[Ransom]

The 'race of man' is generally gready, self-centered, prideful, and downright mean.

It's when people go against their human nature when true strength and courage is shown. We don't point toward a greedy person and say he's strong. We point toward the person who did something good even when commen sense said not to.

"I wanted you to see something about her-I wanted you to see what real courage is, instead of getting the idea that courage is a man with a gun in his hand. It's when you know you're licked before you begin an you see it through no matter what. You rarely win, but sometimes you do." -Mr. Finch in To Kill a Mockingbird

[HerenIstarion]

Brought up to support Book 3 chapters 1 and 2 discussion

[Boromir88]

Arwen Imladris, I think you are correct in saying that Men is where the hope will come from. Don't forget, Aragorn has Estel (hope), and Men is the kingdom that is growing, everything else is fading. The Kingdom of Men have the strength in numbers, they have the strong leaders (Denethor, Imrahil, Aragorn, Theoden, Eomer...etc), so it is definately in men where the hope lies.

But look at it from this perspective. If we look in the Lothlorien chapters we get to see all that the elves are losing. They are losing their wonderful home Lothlorien, they are losing the power of the Rings, they are losing their whole way of life, and after this they are leaving. Despite what they are all losing, they still stick with the Men and do their share, that's what you have to admire about them .

[drigel]

Elves represent mankind in an "unfallen state", as pointed out by the author. Thats us - still walking around naked in Eden (omg thats an ugly mental picture isnt it??). In some ways, he treats the "gift of men" as the same as the bible treats the gift of the apple. "Men are weak and elves are not" is (IMO) a weak premise

Its the type of weakness that counts. In LOTR, the weakness referred to men is primarily the desire for rule or power over others, and the little (or lack of) moral temprament that was invlolved in achieving said power.... right?

By the 3rd age - yea there werent a lot of elves (particularly Noldorian) around who had that particular condition. But there were plenty in the 1st age and to a lesser extent the 2nd age as well. Desire for power, ego, hubris - you name it.

Would "resistance to change" be considered a weakness by the 3rd age? Did that help, hinder, or have no effect on the big mission of the time?

[rutslegolas]

I think you all are going to kill me for making this statement,but nonetheless I say that men are weak , weak in the sense " greedy , self-centrered " they do not care about the future generations but rather about their present state.

Like for example - Boromir even though he knew he could use the ring for good,he still wanted it for himself ,to become the King ,have all the power,and rule as a dictator. Giving another example I say Ar-Pharazon though he was a Numenorean he still desired power,wealth,immortality .

Baring the exceptions of Aragorn and Faramir all the men in Middle-Earth lived for their own sake caring not for future generations.

Unlike men the Elves seem to be of a higher make Immortal , thoughtful and they seem to think more of the future than care for the present . And I say that men can be ensnared by evil more easily than elves or even dwarves .