Riddles in the Downs - Page 81 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Huinesoron · 07-31-2019, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

Celegorm, Curufin and Orodreth came to mind. They were all ruling Nargothrond at the same time

But all from the same side of the Narog, so that doesn't work.

I realise I'm being quite cagey here, but, like... the entire riddle hangs together. If I over-hint at one line, it'll make the others redundant. It's tricky to balance.

hS

EDIT: Riddle & notes for the new page:

"Okay, so let's go this way:

Take four coins, add another one or two,
A ruler born, a ruler made, a ruler over stream,
Visit York, Lancaster, take a horse and you
Will find in the end a helper's hopeful dream.

Here are some questions that might run through my head if I was seeing this riddle for the first time:

-What coin would you have four of? Why would you add one or two? One or two what?
-What's a ruler? How do you make a ruler? Why would you have three? Is the third one 'over stream' from the other two?
-What do York and Lancaster have in common? What's the connection to a horse?
-Who is the helper? Who or what did they hope for? Is the dream literal?
-Are there any elements in my answers to the above that string together to point at one person, place, or thing in Middle-earth?"

Urwen · 07-31-2019, 02:00 PM

Is this some sort of triumvirate, where three people shared power?

Is it perchance Phary/Zimraphel/Sauron trio? The former two were rulers in name, but it was Sauron who really had the power; and you could argue that Sauron's realms were located on the other side of a body of water.

Huinesoron · 07-31-2019, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

Is this some sort of triumvirate, where three people shared power?

Is it perchance Phary/Zimraphel/Sauron trio? The former two were rulers in name, but it was Sauron who really had the power; and you could argue that Sauron's realms were located on the other side of a body of water.

To be honest I don't think any of these three exerted any real power, but the second one probably had the most.

All three had different titles (and we've already established that none of them were royalty).

hS

Urwen · 07-31-2019, 02:53 PM

Can't think of anyone else who ruled concurrently. Unless you mean Faramir, Eomer and Samwise?

Huinesoron · 07-31-2019, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

Can't think of anyone else who ruled concurrently. Unless you mean Faramir, Eomer and Samwise?

Er... no. Those don't exactly form a natural set, do they?

hS

Urwen · 07-31-2019, 03:18 PM

Then I really don't know. Maybe ruler over stream is Ulmo, ruler of all the water. That would make the other two Tuor and Earendil, prolly.

Or maybe the three men who held power over the three elvish cities (ie. Turin, Tuor and Beren)

Huinesoron · 08-01-2019, 02:34 AM

Mmm... no.

The first two lines kind of go together, in that they are both describing material attributes of the answer. The third line is cryptic. The fourth line touches on the general character of the answer.

Each of these rulers held a position that existed both before and after them. You have already named (at some point) one of the people who held one of them.

hS

Urwen · 08-01-2019, 02:44 AM

At some point during this riddle or at some point in the entire thread?

Huinesoron · 08-01-2019, 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

At some point during this riddle or at some point in the entire thread?

The former. I'm pretty sure every character in Middle-earth, down to "fox, thinking", has been named in this thread at some point.

hS

Urwen · 08-01-2019, 03:01 AM

Well, you didn't outright say no to Orodreth, so one of the three could be him.

Huinesoron · 08-01-2019, 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

Well, you didn't outright say no to Orodreth, so one of the three could be him.

Orodreth is not one of the three.

I'd rather not give direct yes/nos to individual names, because you could easily just go through each one you've listed. I'll happily say whether a trio is correct, though.

hS

Urwen · 08-01-2019, 04:10 AM

Celegorm, Curufin and Thingol?

Urwen · 08-01-2019, 04:13 AM

A ruler born: Celegorm or Curufin
A ruler made: Fingolfin or Thingol
A ruler over stream: Hurin

Huinesoron · 08-01-2019, 04:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

Celegorm, Curufin and Thingol?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

A ruler born: Celegorm or Curufin
A ruler made: Fingolfin or Thingol
A ruler over stream: Hurin

Nope & nope.

Remember that the 'rulers' line is part of a riddle with a specific answer. The three must, by the structure of the riddle, have a strong connection to a single, specific person-place-or-thing - and a stronger connection than any other possible 'rulers', too. (If you were looking for a Beren/Luthien or Turin link, for instance, I'd surely have included Morgoth in there.)

hS

Urwen · 08-01-2019, 04:40 AM

Then I give up. Someone else can solve it, though I doubt anyone will. Your hints don't narrow it down much, if at all.

Urwen · 08-01-2019, 04:42 AM

Wait, I just had a thought. Goldberry could be a ruler over stream, being the daughter of a River King.

Urwen · 08-01-2019, 04:43 AM

Which would make the other two Tom Bombadil, ruler over the Old Forest, and Sam, the Thain of the Shire.

Huinesoron · 08-01-2019, 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

Which would make the other two Tom Bombadil, ruler over the Old Forest, and Sam, the Thain of the Shire.

Sam is the Mayor of the Shire (technically of Michel Delving), an appointed/elected position. Pippin is the Thain, by right of birth.

hS

Urwen · 08-01-2019, 06:03 AM

So is it wrong?

Huinesoron · 08-01-2019, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

So is it wrong?

Goldberry, Bombadil, and Sam are not the three rulers in the riddle.

hS

Urwen · 08-01-2019, 06:21 AM

Hint please, and I mean one which will narrow this down substantially.

Huinesoron · 08-01-2019, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

Hint please, and I mean one which will narrow this down substantially.

You've had lots of hints, and I suspect you haven't even recognised several of them, but fine:

It's a place.

hS

Urwen · 08-01-2019, 07:33 AM

A place consisting of three words, I presume.

Urwen · 08-01-2019, 07:38 AM

The helper is Sam, I think

Huinesoron · 08-01-2019, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

A place consisting of three words, I presume.

No, just one or two.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

The helper is Sam, I think

Correct.

hS

Urwen · 08-01-2019, 07:54 AM

I think he dreamt about the Grey Havens/Undying lands, where Elves went.

Urwen · 08-01-2019, 07:55 AM

But I don't see how the words referenced form the name of that place.

Huinesoron · 08-01-2019, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

But I don't see how the words referenced form the name of that place.

Because they don't, because that's not the answer.

Line 3 isn't a true cryptic clue - it's multiple clues to the same answer.

hS

Urwen · 08-01-2019, 11:23 AM

'My kingdom for a horse' line comes to mind....

Huinesoron · 08-01-2019, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

'My kingdom for a horse' line comes to mind....

It does, and deliberately so, but only as part of the War of the Roses misdirection.

hS

Urwen · 08-01-2019, 12:21 PM

I read Sam's wiki and TG page and found nothing useful in terms of riddle-solving.

Huinesoron · 08-01-2019, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

I read Sam's wiki and TG page and found nothing useful in terms of riddle-solving.

Incorrect. You definitely found at least one relevant fact; you just didn't notice it.

hS

Urwen · 08-01-2019, 02:08 PM

Then I'll comb again.

Urwen · 08-01-2019, 02:13 PM

Well, the only relevant bit I can find is how the Ring tempted him with a great garden.

Huinesoron · 08-01-2019, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

Then I'll comb again.

I wouldn't bother; you've already said it, too.

(And I gave you a nice big hint in reply that you didn't notice.

)

hS

Urwen · 08-01-2019, 02:46 PM

So it's a great garden of some kind?

Huinesoron · 08-02-2019, 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

So it's a great garden of some kind?

No. Before that.

hS

Urwen · 08-02-2019, 01:59 AM

He loved Elves?

Huinesoron · 08-02-2019, 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

He loved Elves?

Which line of the riddle are you proposing that being relevant to? I'm almost intrigued to hear how you managed to link it, but I'll just settle for a flat 'nope'.

hS

Urwen · 08-02-2019, 03:32 AM

Well, I can't find anything else relevant that I've already said. Can you at least tell me the post number where I said it?

07-31-2019, 02:00 PM	#3202
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,376	Musings Is this some sort of triumvirate, where three people shared power? Is it perchance Phary/Zimraphel/Sauron trio? The former two were rulers in name, but it was Sauron who really had the power; and you could argue that Sauron's realms were located on the other side of a body of water. __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

07-31-2019, 02:53 PM	#3204
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,376	Can't think of anyone else who ruled concurrently. Unless you mean Faramir, Eomer and Samwise? __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

07-31-2019, 03:18 PM	#3206
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,376	Then I really don't know. Maybe ruler over stream is Ulmo, ruler of all the water. That would make the other two Tuor and Earendil, prolly. Or maybe the three men who held power over the three elvish cities (ie. Turin, Tuor and Beren) __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

08-01-2019, 02:44 AM	#3208
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,376	At some point during this riddle or at some point in the entire thread? __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

08-01-2019, 03:01 AM	#3210
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,376	Well, you didn't outright say no to Orodreth, so one of the three could be him. __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

08-01-2019, 02:34 AM	#3207
Huinesoron Overshadowed Eagle Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea Posts: 3,782	Mmm... no. The first two lines kind of go together, in that they are both describing material attributes of the answer. The third line is cryptic. The fourth line touches on the general character of the answer. Each of these rulers held a position that existed both before and after them. You have already named (at some point) one of the people who held one of them. hS

08-01-2019, 04:10 AM	#3212
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,376	Celegorm, Curufin and Thingol? __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

08-01-2019, 04:13 AM	#3213
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,376	A ruler born: Celegorm or Curufin A ruler made: Fingolfin or Thingol A ruler over stream: Hurin __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

08-01-2019, 04:40 AM	#3215
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,376	Then I give up. Someone else can solve it, though I doubt anyone will. Your hints don't narrow it down much, if at all. __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

08-01-2019, 04:42 AM	#3216
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,376	Wait, I just had a thought. Goldberry could be a ruler over stream, being the daughter of a River King. __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

08-01-2019, 04:43 AM	#3217
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,376	Which would make the other two Tom Bombadil, ruler over the Old Forest, and Sam, the Thain of the Shire. __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

08-01-2019, 06:03 AM	#3219
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,376	So is it wrong? __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

08-01-2019, 06:21 AM	#3221
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,376	Hint please, and I mean one which will narrow this down substantially. __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

08-01-2019, 07:33 AM	#3223
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,376	A place consisting of three words, I presume. __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

08-01-2019, 07:38 AM	#3224
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,376	The helper is Sam, I think __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

08-01-2019, 07:54 AM	#3226
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,376	I think he dreamt about the Grey Havens/Undying lands, where Elves went. __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

08-01-2019, 07:55 AM	#3227
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,376	But I don't see how the words referenced form the name of that place. __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

08-01-2019, 11:23 AM	#3229
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,376	'My kingdom for a horse' line comes to mind.... __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

08-01-2019, 12:21 PM	#3231
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,376	I read Sam's wiki and TG page and found nothing useful in terms of riddle-solving. __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

08-01-2019, 02:08 PM	#3233
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,376	Then I'll comb again. __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

08-01-2019, 02:13 PM	#3234
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,376	Well, the only relevant bit I can find is how the Ring tempted him with a great garden. __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

08-01-2019, 02:46 PM	#3236
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,376	So it's a great garden of some kind? __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

08-02-2019, 01:59 AM	#3238
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,376	He loved Elves? __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

08-02-2019, 03:32 AM	#3240
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,376	Well, I can't find anything else relevant that I've already said. Can you at least tell me the post number where I said it? __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.