Wormtongue and Saruman in RotK - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lalaith · 02-03-2003, 07:48 AM

I've been wondering about the demise of Saruman and how it will be handled. We know that there is no Scouring in PJ's RotK. So Saruman cannot die there. At the end of the movie TTT, Wormtongue is still in thrall to the charisma of Saruman. If Saruman will indeed meet his end at the hand of Wormtongue, as he does in the book,but it happens at Isengard, how quickly can they move the plot forward to account for Wormtongue's complete change of heart?

**The Saucepan Man** · 02-03-2003, 08:09 AM

I suspect that the film will have Wormtongue throwing the Palantir out of Orthanc, thus provoking Saruman's fury. How long it will then be until Wormtongue "snaps" is not at all clear.

Inderjit Sanghera · 02-03-2003, 09:15 AM

I think that he will snap, soon, him being the cowardly dog that he is and push Saruman off a ledge on Orthanc, before being eaten by a hungry Treebeard, or more likely, to be shot down by some anonomous Archer, or to kill himself in despair, after we see yet another 'Ha-ha, let's laugh at that stupid dwarf' joke.

HCIsland · 02-03-2003, 09:47 AM

I find this question the toughest to wrap my head around. There is a <A HREF="http://www.kojiroabe.com/rotk/wormtonguewithknife.jpg" TARGET=_blank>picture</A> of Wormtongue with a dagger, on what appears to be the top of Orthanc. How about Wormtongue throwing the Palantir? Saruman chases him up to the top of the tower. Wormtongue draws the blade, they struggle and both topple off. Pretty lame eh?I would love to see that degraded and spitefull Saruman we see in the books as that is far more of a humiliation then any quick death, but without the Scouring of the Shire, I'm not sure we will see it. This may be one lose end PJ would rather tie up early so he can move on with the rest of the film.As for Wormtongue's turn around being too sudden, I don't think so. In the book it is strongly suggested that the Palantir was aimed at Saruman. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> "The aim was poor, maybe, because he could not make up his mind which he hated more, you or Saruman," said Aragorn.LoTR - Book 3 - Chapter 10 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>We did get that one tear from Wormtongue in TTT upon seeing the armies of Saruman. There may be more in the special edition, but I think that one image was pretty clear in telling that Wormtongue didn't know what he was in league with.As for Saruman chasing Wormtongue in a murderous rage; knowing both the Palantir was lost and that it might have been aimed at him, exactly why would he want to keep Wormtongue around?H.C.

Frodo Baggins · 02-03-2003, 10:17 AM

HC, are you a Wormtongue fan? Because you and I seem to meet on topics like this. You amy have something there HC. And yes, to see the degreded, humiliated Saruman would be lots of fun. But he was rather degraded after Gandalf broke his staff in Orthanc, let's hope we see that!Eaten by Treebeard?? COME ON!!!! Treebeard may be intimidating but he's not cruel. Somewhere in all that wood, he has a soft heart, that's why he relased Saruman from Orthanc in the end.

HCIsland · 02-03-2003, 10:24 AM

Besides, we all know Treebeard's a vegitarian. I do seem to be drawn to the more tortured characters in the books. The ones that start with good intentions and suddenly find themselves on the wrong side of the fence. My favourite Saruman moment is when he worms some "leaf" from the hobbits. It's funny to think that he slams Gandalf for smoking the stuff and all the time he's hidding in the bathroom with the window open and a rolled up towel blocking the crack under the door. I really would like to see that in the film somewhere, but my hopes aren't high.H.C.

Inderjit Sanghera · 02-03-2003, 11:23 AM

Frodo-It was a joke.

the witch king · 02-03-2003, 11:49 AM

Theres a photo out there on the web showing Saruman impailed on a spike! i havent got the link sorry, so could it be that wormtongue pushes him out the window????

Gorwingel · 02-03-2003, 10:53 PM

I think that the demise of Saruman may be similar to the Scouring, with Wormtongue killing Saruman, but just in a different location. Maybe after they leave Gondor, after Aragorn has become king and all, they go through Isengard on the way back, and maybe Gandalf confronts him and then Oh I don't know, I just hope they handle it in a good way.

Frodo Baggins · 02-04-2003, 10:07 AM

Oh Inderjit! I know it was a joke! I was just making a point that there is a difference between Old Man Willow and Treebeard. Yes HC, the more tortured ones, Good intentions in the beginning but ending up on the wrong side in the end. And as to why you and I are drawn to them...who knows? We must be wierd. Funny thought of Saruman smoking in the bathroom. That was good.

Inderjit Sanghera · 02-04-2003, 10:12 AM

Or maybe, just maybe, Eowyn realises she has been in love with Wormtounge all these years and marries him?

Tar-Palantir · 02-04-2003, 11:04 AM

I wouldn't doubt it, she's such a psycho...

Inderjit Sanghera · 02-04-2003, 11:12 AM

A beautiful, lovley pyscho at that. If I was a Aragorn then I would dump Arwen and pick Eowyn any day of the week.

Vardadurwen · 02-04-2003, 12:45 PM

I saw that link too, the witch king. It might not have been the same one, but I was at a ROTK spoiler site *I couldn't help myself hehe* and saw that shot too. So I guess he dies by falling on a spike, but just how he came to fall on it, I don't know...that is for further speculation!

HCIsland · 02-04-2003, 01:34 PM

I've heard that multiple deaths were shot for Saruman, so any shot you see is very likely not to be used.Editted to add: I think this is the pic people are talking about. H.C.[ February 04, 2003: Message edited by: HCIsland ]

Vardadurwen · 02-04-2003, 05:30 PM

Yes, HCIsland, that's the exact picture I saw.

**The Saucepan Man** · 02-04-2003, 06:49 PM

I'm curious about when exactly this is going to happen in the film. It would seem strange to kill off a character who has been so pivotal in the first two films at the beginning of the third.I like the idea of Saruman meeting his end as the film climaxes, but there's not much scope for him and Wormtongue to do much in between. Since it doesn't look like they're leaving Orthanc and there are only the two of them, any more than a few scenes between them throughout the film would become a bit repetitive. Also, they wouldn't really relate to the rest of the story.

Pukel-Man · 02-05-2003, 12:41 AM

I heard that after Arwen destroys the Witch-king, she rides off to Isengard and defeats Saruman in a dramatic Johnny Woo inspired ending.

Inderjit Sanghera · 02-05-2003, 05:51 AM

Yeah! Go Arwen! Will she be killing Denethor and Sauron as well?

HCIsland · 02-05-2003, 12:25 PM

Here's what PJ can do to make me one very happy camper (not that this would be a particularly big concern of his )Because of time constraints and the logistics of keeping Saruman in the audience's mind right to the end, have him killed early in Isengard. Wormtongue throws the Palantir and Saruman chases him in a rage and they manage to kill eachother. BUT ...In the special edition of RoTK, after Wormtongue throws the Seeing Stone, we lose their fight scene and focus on our heros. Interesting. We don't see Saruman for the rest of the film, but in a half hour extended scene, we get the Scouring of the Shire and the traditional death of Saruman. Likely the hobbits return home could be shot in such a way that the scenes with the rufians and Sharky could be cut out in the theatrical version, but reinserted for the special edition.So what do you think the odds of this happening are? I thought so. H.C.

the guy who be short · 02-05-2003, 12:47 PM

the odds of this happening are 0: saruman and sauron merge into one being, called sauronman. sauronman lives in barad dur, and when the ring is thrown into the cracks of doom, he dies. i know its not happening, but still... id also like to see the bit where sarumans staff is broken. maybe theyll kill him then gandalf:saruman, your staff is broken saruman: (look surprised) is it? (looks down) ah, so it is! then he falls over cos he was leaning on his staff and hits his head. then wormtongue, whose just injected some strange drug into him, goes down and stabs him. or maybe he lands on a land splinter of his staff?

02-03-2003, 07:48 AM	#1
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,779	Wormtongue and Saruman in RotK I've been wondering about the demise of Saruman and how it will be handled. We know that there is no Scouring in PJ's RotK. So Saruman cannot die there. At the end of the movie TTT, Wormtongue is still in thrall to the charisma of Saruman. If Saruman will indeed meet his end at the hand of Wormtongue, as he does in the book,but it happens at Isengard, how quickly can they move the plot forward to account for Wormtongue's complete change of heart? __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling

02-03-2003, 08:09 AM	#2
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	I suspect that the film will have Wormtongue throwing the Palantir out of Orthanc, thus provoking Saruman's fury. How long it will then be until Wormtongue "snaps" is not at all clear. __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

02-03-2003, 09:15 AM	#3
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	I think that he will snap, soon, him being the cowardly dog that he is and push Saruman off a ledge on Orthanc, before being eaten by a hungry Treebeard, or more likely, to be shot down by some anonomous Archer, or to kill himself in despair, after we see yet another 'Ha-ha, let's laugh at that stupid dwarf' joke. __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone

02-03-2003, 09:47 AM	#4
HCIsland Zombie Cannibal Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,000	I find this question the toughest to wrap my head around. There is a <A HREF="http://www.kojiroabe.com/rotk/wormtonguewithknife.jpg" TARGET=_blank>picture</A> of Wormtongue with a dagger, on what appears to be the top of Orthanc. How about Wormtongue throwing the Palantir? Saruman chases him up to the top of the tower. Wormtongue draws the blade, they struggle and both topple off. Pretty lame eh?<P>I would love to see that degraded and spitefull Saruman we see in the books as that is far more of a humiliation then any quick death, but without the Scouring of the Shire, I'm not sure we will see it. This may be one lose end PJ would rather tie up early so he can move on with the rest of the film.<P>As for Wormtongue's turn around being too sudden, I don't think so. In the book it is strongly suggested that the Palantir was aimed at Saruman.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> "The aim was poor, maybe, because he could not make up his mind which he hated more, you or Saruman," said Aragorn.<P>LoTR - Book 3 - Chapter 10 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>We did get that one tear from Wormtongue in TTT upon seeing the armies of Saruman. There may be more in the special edition, but I think that one image was pretty clear in telling that Wormtongue didn't know what he was in league with.<P>As for Saruman chasing Wormtongue in a murderous rage; knowing both the Palantir was lost and that it might have been aimed at him, exactly why would he want to keep Wormtongue around?<P>H.C. __________________ "Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed myself. Have I not tasted it now many nights upon my tongue, foreboding that worse yet lay in the dregs." -Denethor

02-03-2003, 10:17 AM	#5
Frodo Baggins Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Bag-End, Under-Hill, Hobbiton-across-the Water Posts: 606	HC, are you a Wormtongue fan? Because you and I seem to meet on topics like this.<BR> You amy have something there HC. And yes, to see the degreded, humiliated Saruman would be lots of fun. But he was rather degraded after Gandalf broke his staff in Orthanc, let's hope we see that!<P>Eaten by Treebeard?? COME ON!!!! Treebeard may be intimidating but he's not cruel. Somewhere in all that wood, he has a soft heart, that's why he relased Saruman from Orthanc in the end. __________________ "I'm your huckleberry....that's just my game."

02-03-2003, 10:24 AM	#6
HCIsland Zombie Cannibal Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,000	Besides, we all know Treebeard's a vegitarian. <P>I do seem to be drawn to the more tortured characters in the books. The ones that start with good intentions and suddenly find themselves on the wrong side of the fence. <P>My favourite Saruman moment is when he worms some "leaf" from the hobbits. It's funny to think that he slams Gandalf for smoking the stuff and all the time he's hidding in the bathroom with the window open and a rolled up towel blocking the crack under the door. I really would like to see that in the film somewhere, but my hopes aren't high.<P>H.C. __________________ "Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed myself. Have I not tasted it now many nights upon my tongue, foreboding that worse yet lay in the dregs." -Denethor

02-03-2003, 11:23 AM	#7
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	Frodo-It was a joke. __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone

02-03-2003, 11:49 AM	#8
the witch king Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Minas Morgul, Morgul Vale, Mordor Posts: 201	Theres a photo out there on the web showing Saruman impailed on a spike! i havent got the link sorry, so could it be that wormtongue pushes him out the window???? __________________ 'Whenever death may surprise us, let it be welcome if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear and another hand reaches out to take up our arms.'~ Che Guevara.

02-03-2003, 10:53 PM	#9
Gorwingel Beholder of the Mists Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Somewhere in the Northwest... for now Posts: 1,419	I think that the demise of Saruman may be similar to the Scouring, with Wormtongue killing Saruman, but just in a different location. Maybe after they leave Gondor, after Aragorn has become king and all, they go through Isengard on the way back, and maybe Gandalf confronts him and then Oh I don't know, I just hope they handle it in a good way. __________________ Wanted - Wonderfully witty quote that consists of pure brilliance

02-04-2003, 10:07 AM	#10
Frodo Baggins Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Bag-End, Under-Hill, Hobbiton-across-the Water Posts: 606	Oh Inderjit! I know it was a joke! I was just making a point that there is a difference between Old Man Willow and Treebeard. <P><BR> Yes HC, the more tortured ones, Good intentions in the beginning but ending up on the wrong side in the end. And as to why you and I are drawn to them...who knows? We must be wierd. <P>Funny thought of Saruman smoking in the bathroom. That was good. __________________ "I'm your huckleberry....that's just my game."

02-04-2003, 10:12 AM	#11
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	Or maybe, just maybe, Eowyn realises she has been in love with Wormtounge all these years and marries him? __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone

02-04-2003, 11:04 AM	#12
Tar-Palantir Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: napa valley, ca Posts: 496	I wouldn't doubt it, she's such a psycho... __________________ History shows again and again How nature points up the folly of men Go, go, Godzilla!

02-04-2003, 11:12 AM	#13
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	A beautiful, lovley pyscho at that. If I was a Aragorn then I would dump Arwen and pick Eowyn any day of the week. __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone

02-04-2003, 12:45 PM	#14
Vardadurwen Wight Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Saskatchewan, Canada Posts: 102	I saw that link too, the witch king. It might not have been the same one, but I was at a ROTK spoiler site I couldn't help myself hehe and saw that shot too. So I guess he dies by falling on a spike, but just <I>how</I> he came to fall on it, I don't know...that is for further speculation! __________________ 'In this phial,' she said, 'is caught the light of Earendil's star....May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out...' - Galadriel 'Now there's an eye-opener and no mistake!' - Samwise Gamgee

02-04-2003, 01:34 PM	#15
HCIsland Zombie Cannibal Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,000	I've heard that multiple deaths were shot for Saruman, so any shot you see is very likely not to be used.<P>Editted to add: <P>I think this is the pic people are talking about.<BR> <P>H.C.<p>[ February 04, 2003: Message edited by: HCIsland ] __________________ "Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed myself. Have I not tasted it now many nights upon my tongue, foreboding that worse yet lay in the dregs." -Denethor

02-04-2003, 05:30 PM	#16
Vardadurwen Wight Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Saskatchewan, Canada Posts: 102	Yes, HCIsland, that's the exact picture I saw. __________________ 'In this phial,' she said, 'is caught the light of Earendil's star....May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out...' - Galadriel 'Now there's an eye-opener and no mistake!' - Samwise Gamgee

02-04-2003, 06:49 PM	#17
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	I'm curious about when exactly this is going to happen in the film. It would seem strange to kill off a character who has been so pivotal in the first two films at the beginning of the third.<P>I like the idea of Saruman meeting his end as the film climaxes, but there's not much scope for him and Wormtongue to do much in between. Since it doesn't look like they're leaving Orthanc and there are only the two of them, any more than a few scenes between them throughout the film would become a bit repetitive. Also, they wouldn't really relate to the rest of the story. __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

02-05-2003, 12:41 AM	#18
Pukel-Man Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona, -East of Dunharrow Posts: 54	I heard that after Arwen destroys the Witch-king, she rides off to Isengard and defeats Saruman in a dramatic Johnny Woo inspired ending. __________________ This is not the time or the place to perform some kind of a half-assed autopsy on a fish... And I'm not going to stand here and see that thing cut open and see that little Kintner boy spill out all over the dock!-Mayor Vaughn

02-05-2003, 05:51 AM	#19
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	Yeah! Go Arwen! Will she be killing Denethor and Sauron as well? __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone

02-05-2003, 12:25 PM	#20
HCIsland Zombie Cannibal Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,000	Here's what PJ can do to make me one very happy camper (not that this would be a particularly big concern of his )<P>Because of time constraints and the logistics of keeping Saruman in the audience's mind right to the end, have him killed early in Isengard. Wormtongue throws the Palantir and Saruman chases him in a rage and they manage to kill eachother. BUT ...<P>In the special edition of RoTK, after Wormtongue throws the Seeing Stone, we lose their fight scene and focus on our heros. Interesting. We don't see Saruman for the rest of the film, but in a half hour extended scene, we get the Scouring of the Shire and the traditional death of Saruman. Likely the hobbits return home could be shot in such a way that the scenes with the rufians and Sharky could be cut out in the theatrical version, but reinserted for the special edition.<P>So what do you think the odds of this happening are? I thought so. <P>H.C. __________________ "Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed myself. Have I not tasted it now many nights upon my tongue, foreboding that worse yet lay in the dregs." -Denethor

02-05-2003, 12:47 PM	#21
the guy who be short Shadowed Prince Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Thulcandra Posts: 2,343	the odds of this happening are 0:<BR>saruman and sauron merge into one being, called sauronman. sauronman lives in barad dur, and when the ring is thrown into the cracks of doom, he dies.<BR>i know its not happening, but still...<BR>id also like to see the bit where sarumans staff is broken. maybe theyll kill him then<BR>gandalf:saruman, your staff is broken<BR>saruman: (look surprised) is it? (looks down) ah, so it is! then he falls over cos he was leaning on his staff and hits his head. then wormtongue, whose just injected some strange drug into him, goes down and stabs him. or maybe he lands on a land splinter of his staff?