Why Moria?

[Morsul the Dark]

Why go through Moria?

As I recall both Aragorn and Gandalf either feared or hated the place...It may be because it was the only way....but was it?

I was listening to the Hobbit and it occured to me Gandalf coulve taken the secret passage(the one Gollum used to live in. It says the orcs left the passages alone for a great while so wouldnt it be safe to say it was abandonned? and also afterwards if he was still alive they could have stayed with beo0rn for a bit to get themselves rested...I understand this route wouldn't have been as adventurous but if Tolkien was indeed writing basicly freestyle how far ahead did he think, what I mean is when He was writing the Mines of Moria bit was He already thinking about Lothlorien?

Personally I would have went through the passage if I were Tolkien. But that just be my opinion. I mean I love the way iot is right now but is it possible they could have gone the other way?

[Kath]

When you say Gollum's secret passage do you mean the tunnels through which Gandalf and the dwarves and then Bilbo ran through when escaping the goblins? If so then they probably wouldn't have been able to go through there because of the goblins, and also wouldn't that have taken them in the wrong direction?

And Tolkien did actually think ahead as he wrote. In HoME you can see the plot outlines that he wrote and he had forseen at least the basic plot of Lothlorien before they even entered Moria.

[Kuruharan]

It might have been possible for the Fellowship to go through the high pass and then down into the land of the Beornings. However, the problem with that path is that it would take them waaaay to close to Dol Guldur when they turned south.

[Formendacil]

Another thing to note is that when they left Rivendell, the Fellowship had every reason to hope that they would be able to cross over the Redhorn Pass- and so into Lorien, which Gandalf apparently intended to visit, re this statement of Aragorn's:

'Our road leads beside it for many miles. For I shall take you by the road that Gandalf chose, and first I hope to come to the woods where the Silverlode flows into the Great River--out yonder.' They looked as he pointed, and before them they could see the stream leaping down to the trough of the valley, and then running on and away into the lower lands, until it was lost in a golden haze.

That being noted, by the time that the Fellowship reached the Redhorn Pass- and found it impassible, going back north was really a non-option. They would easily have lost a couple of months going back and then down the Vale of the Anduin- even if, as Kuruharan notes, there was no Dol Guldur to worry about.

[Rhod the Red]

They should have gone over the Misty Mountains via the route the Dawrves, Gandalf and Bilbo went in The Hobbit.

[goldfinger]

Originally Posted by Rhod the Red

They should have gone over the Misty Mountains via the route the Dwarves, Gandalf and Bilbo went in The Hobbit.

The Redhorn pass wouldn't have been any easier than Moria, considering Orcs were still known to ambush travelers who took that route.

[Elu Ancalime]

But there was also no Balrog, which is something I think Gandalf cared about more than goblins.

As far as the Fellowship traveling East, it came down to the lesser of all the other evils. Or just process of elimination.

-Boromir said they should make for the Gap of Rohan, but it was closed to them because of Sauruman's power in the area and the Eye looking West. Also, there were no real hospitable places to provide them with some up-to-date news on how fast Gondor was going to get beaten or some food or a bed(that would be Lothlorien). If The Fellowship could get across the Fords of Isen, would Theoden have accepted them under Wormtougne's power? And if they had deposed Grima, he would just tell Sauruman that the Ringbearer or Gandalf was there, and Sauruman's army was less than 100 miles away I believe. Then they would be tailed through the Entwash and Anorien until they reached the Drugs or Minas Tirith.

-It was also mentioned one about taking "the western way" by coming near Druath Iaur and passing around the western end of the White Mountains, and traveling through the fiefs of Gondor along the coast. This would take too much time, and although they would be in hostile territory, there was no land that they could be assured traveling in secret, because there were no places like Rivendell or Lothlorien that they could get the news and not have to worry about being revealed.

-And the High Pass? It wasn't really out of the way, and there wouldnt be more goblins than there were at the time of TH, and the actual pass dosnt even go under ground. They underground passage was just a cave network that the Thorin and Co tried to sleep in. It did however, stick them out in the Wild, and it would not take long to send a Ringwraith from Dol Gulder up the River if they were revealed to Sauron. Like Formedacil said.

The biggest problem of the High Pass was that they did not have to decide direction until it was behind them. They had already planned to take the Redhorn Pass (which compared to the alternatives was obvuously the most direct). Thus Moria was already less than 20 miles away and the next direct. They had to gamble danger with speed, and I think that if Gandalf had told everyone that a balrog was in there and they understood, they wouldnt have been as Gimli-eager, but they still would have felt it was the only "way."
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IOLITE VAPORIZER

[Kuruharan]

Gandalf did not know the balrog was there.

Nobody knew what Durin's Bane was.

[Elu Ancalime]

Really?

Surely the survivors of Kazad-dum (I do know that there were survivors ) would have passed down the story in the fashoin of a war veteran who-dosnt-like-to-talk-about-it-but-we-pretty-much-know-what-happened-but-didnt-experience-it-way, and someone who was as close to the dwarves who was not a dwarf would know?

It just lseemed logical, that although the Balrog had "shape shifting" powers or whatever, it seems that it would not move far out of the path from between the East Gate and West Gate. And the fact that it didnt anyway.

Do you think there would be any reason for the Balrog to move? The goblins might have revered him as an "evil role model" or something, but I dont know if balrogs have feelings, so would it care if it lived on the corpses of his enemies surrounded by 'lackys' and somewhere tangible wealth? Just Wondering.
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Mercedes-Benz Slr Mclaren Specifications

[goldfinger]

At the end of the Battle of Aznulbizar, Dain Ironfoot looked into the gates of Khazad Dum and saw the Balrog still lingered and would not permit his people to enter to reclaim Moria.

[Rhod the Red]

Originally Posted by goldfinger

The Redhorn pass wouldn't have been any easier than Moria, considering Orcs were still known to ambush travelers who took that route.

In The Hobbit perhaps, but there's no assertion of that at the Council Of Elrond. How do you think Legolas reached Rivendell?

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Elu

And the High Pass?

I seem to recall it being said somewhere that, at the time the Fellowship left Rivendell (in December), the High Pass was impassable.

[Kuruharan]

Surely the survivors of Kazad-dum

They did not know what it was. As Gandalf said, there were many nameless things in the deep places of the world. Durin's Bane could have been any one of a number of them.

that although the Balrog had "shape shifting" powers

Do you really want to open that can o' worms here?

[Rhod the Red]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

I seem to recall it being said somewhere that, at the time the Fellowship left Rivendell (in December), the High Pass was impassable.

I'm reading

The Lord of the Rings

again, and no such thing is said. So the High Pass was clear, as far as I'm concerned.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Rhod

So the High Pass was clear, as far as I'm concerned.

Seems that's right. Not sure where I got that from. Perhaps an old board game where the play of a "bad weather" card can close the High Pass.

Which begs the question as to why the Fellowship did not take the High Pass. It was close to Rivendell and safer than other passages over the Misty Mountains, as it was guarded by the Beornings.

The only clue that I can find lies in the following passage in The Ring Goes South:

The country was much rougher and more barren than in the green vale of the Great River in Wilderland on the other side of the range, and their going would be slow; but they hoped in this way to escape the notice of unfriendly eyes. The spies of Sauron had hitherto seldom been seen in this empty country, and the paths were little known except to the people of Rivendell.

So it seems that the Fellowship was reckoned to have a greater prospect of remaining unseen by travelling west of the mountains, even thought the eastern path was probably the safer and swifter one.

[Rhod the Red]

Plus the High Pass route would make them take longer, if you look at the distance. Maybe a few weeks.

[JennyHallu]

Had they taken the High Pass, they would have come out on the other side of the Mountains far to the north. While the Pass itself might not have been closed, to travel south from there would have required passing dangerously close to Dol Guldur, an obstacle of the caliber of Minas Morgul. The Redhorn Gate left them in the uninhabited, neutral lands between the mountains and Lothlorien, all together a route less likely to draw Sauron's Eye. And as for the choice of Moria, Gandalf had passed through before safely. Were it not for Pippin and the well, it is likely that they could have gotten through in total secrecy, by an unguarded way.

[Rhod the Red]

With hindsight, the High Pass would have been safer. Speed was not as important as stealth in my view. One did not need to go near Dol Guldor to travel East of the Misty Mountains

[JennyHallu]

So take a pass known to be the haunt of Goblins? Wasn't it somewhere mentioned that the activities of the orcs in the pass had increased since TH?

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Rhod the Red

Plus the High Pass route would make them take longer, if you look at the distance. Maybe a few weeks.

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

While the Pass itself might not have been closed, to travel south from there would have required passing dangerously close to Dol Guldur, an obstacle of the caliber of Minas Morgul.

I have seen these arguments presented before and don't really hold with them.

The High Pass was more or less on the same latitude as Rivendell and so would not have involved much of a greater distance than taking the Redhorn Pass (as was originally intended). It would take them slightly further north, but not by much. And the marginally greater distance is balanced by the fact that (as indicated in the quote I gave above), the country was much more barren, and the going therefore much slower, west of the mountains than east.

As for Dol Guldur, the Fellowship could have avoided coming too close by staying west of the Anduin, near to the Misty Mountains. And, in any event, by the time that they came anywhere near Dol Guldur, they would almost be within Lothlorien.

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

So take a pass known to be the haunt of Goblins? Wasn't it somewhere mentioned that the activities of the orcs in the pass had increased since TH?

No more so than elsewhere in the Misty Mountains. It is mentioned somewhere (The Council of Elrond, possibly) that, in the years following the Quest of Erebor, the Beornings took responsibility for guarding the High Pass and also the main crossing point over the Anduin (and that they charged a toll for doing so). The route was quite well-travelled and would probably have provided the safest passage across the mountains.

So the main reason for not taking the High Pass would appear to be that it would take the Fellowship though more densely populated country which, although nominally safer, would give rise to a greater risk of being spotted by Sauron's spies.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

I tend to agree with above arguments for heading East
or West, as opposed to South (although if the
Redhorn gate was open it would also be a good option).
They could have headed east past the Beornings and
then gone down the River Running, getting to the area
of the Sea of Rhun as a jumping off place for a dash to the
south side of the Ered Lithui (hey, beats passing by Shelob
and/or Minas Morgul as an entrance area!

Alternately, despite Gandalf's worries, immediately
after the Council of Rivendell head west to the Grey Havens,
get Cirdan to send a small fleet, 2-3 boats at most, south
of the Angren (any further by sea and there's corsair problems),
and then go by land east to Lebennin and South Ithilien.
Then either see the giant spider or head east around the
mountains and so into south Mordor.
Sea travel by elf sailors (hugging the coast) would be much
quicker, and being near shore they could evade any enemy ships
or stormy weather.

There are problems with any route. Difficulties with the sea
route include evading armies moving north, the length of the
trip around mountains (unless JRRT invents another pass- or
moves Shelob around ) and being stopped by Denethor.

[tom bombariffic]

I'm reading

again

I've heard it's very good.

bombariffic

[Legolas]

Speed was important; safety was an issue whereever they went.

The snow that fell on Caradhras stopped the Fellowship in their tracks; it would've only been worse so far north (where Bilbo's High Pass lies).

When they returned to the Company Gandalf spoke, and then he knew that it had been decided to face the weather and the high pass. He was relieved. He could not guess what was the other dark and secret way, but the very mention of it had seemed to fill Aragorn with dismay, and Frodo was glad that it had been abandoned.
'From signs that we have seen lately,' said Gandalf, 'I fear that the Redhorn Gate may be watched; and also I have doubts of the weather that is coming up behind. Snow may come. We must go with all the speed that we can. Even so it will take us more than two marches before we reach the top of the pass. Dark will come early this evening. We must leave as soon as you can get ready.'

[Rhod the Red]

The snow storm was at Redhorn, not East of Rivendell. No offence, but don't insert stuff into the story. Gandalf was referring to the Redhorn Pass then, as is clear as the colour of the letters.

[Legolas]

No offense, but once again, please read over what I said again. I didn't say he wasn't. Who inserted things into the story? I was saying there was a risk of harsh weather at Redhorn, which was unusual that far south.

Why would they risk harsher weather by going further north where it was more common, and take the longer route in face of impending doom? It is simply irrational to expect that they would've taken the High Pass. Gandalf never even considers that High Pass an option because of these things. I do not think he is an idiot!

You might also note that they point out that it wasn't simply natural weather acting.

'That I feared it too,' Aragorn answered, 'but less than other things. I knew the risk of snow, though it seldom falls heavily so far south, save high up in the mountains. But we are not high yet; we are still far down, where the paths are usually open all the winter.'
'I wonder if this is a contrivance of the Enemy,' said Boromir. 'They say in my land that he can govern the storms in the Mountains of Shadow that stand upon the borders of Mordor. He has strange powers and many allies.'
'His arm has grown long indeed,' said Gimli, 'if he can draw snow down from the North to trouble us here three hundred leagues away.'
'His arm has grown long,' said Gandalf.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Why would they risk harsher weather by going further north where it was more common, and take the longer route in face of impending doom?

To interject on this point, the northern route (east to River
Running) while longer and perhaps minimally colder (Caradhras
was a tall peak so even its regular winter passages might well
be as difficult as the High Pass). Also, the route east
was generally secured by the Beornings, plus they could approach
Mordor from a presumably unexpected point (The Sea of Rhun)
as opposed to knocking on the front door (rather unwise).

[tom bombariffic]

A good point, Moria was the logical, and safest choice.

However, Tolkien is also careful to emphasize their reluctance right to the end, and they decide to sleep on it, still undecided. In the end, the final decision to go to moria is made of pure necessity, whether they would have chosen to go there or not:

Suddenly Aragorn leapt to his feet. "How the wind howls!" he cried. "It is howling with wolf-voices.The wargs have come west of the mountains!"

"Need we wait until morning then?" said Gandalf. "It is as I said. The hunt is up! Even if we live to see the dawn, who now will wish to journey south by night with the wild wolves on his trail?"

"How far is Moria?" asked Boromir.

This is very clearly a last option, and their delaying of their decision until their hand is forced shows that it was really made out of necessity...whether or not they would have decided to go despite the wolves is another question.

bombariffic

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin

To interject on this point, the northern route (east to River
Running) while longer and perhaps minimally colder (Caradhras
was a tall peak so even its regular winter passages might well
be as difficult as the High Pass). Also, the route east
was generally secured by the Beornings, plus they could approach
Mordor from a presumably unexpected point (The Sea of Rhun)
as opposed to knocking on the front door (rather unwise).

I fear that the Sea of Rhûn route would have been a poor idea for the same reasons as the Drûwaith Iaur route: too long. The Fellowship had to get to Mordor ere the West was lost.

Also, the Beornings may have held the upper Vale of Anduin, but to get at Mordor's "back door", the Fellowship would have had to pass through or around Mirkwood (which in addition to being the home of Dol Guldur was also a warzone). Then they would have had to strike out across Rhovannion, which was probably swarming with Easterlings and Orks, and then into Rhûn proper, which was not only full of Easterlings, but a part of Sauron's empire.

The route that Frodo ended up taking may have been dangerous, but I think an alternative route in Mordor- which would have been too long anyway- would have been far more perillous.

[goldfinger]

Another thing that could a have happened is that if they would have taken the Northern routes they could have ran into Giants. Like in The Hobbit.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Rhod the Red

There are no giants in Middle-Earth.

Actually, there were. Bilbo and company found themselves at the business end of a few rocks hurled by Stone Giants as they crossed the Misty Mountains, and Gandalf considered the possibility of borrowing one such rock to stop up the entrance to Goblin-Town. Or are you suggesting (as has been suggested before) that the Stone Giants were a product of Bilbo's fertile imagination? If so, that's pure speculation and, in any event, contradicts the text as presented.

Originally Posted by Rhod the Red

Al;so, how do you know that storms were 'more common' in the north of the mountains? Again, your'e insterting nonsense into the story.

It is entirely reasonable to suppose that storms would have been at least as prevalent and intense, if not more so, in the northern reaches of the Misty Mountains. Speculation maybe, but hardly nonsense.

Rhod, I would suggest that you tone down your aggressive style as it is not conducive to reasoned discussion. Better, perhaps, to direct your energies to getting your own facts straight rather than trying to discredit suggestions made by others.

[Selmo]

Given Tolkien's description of the geography and meteorology of the north-west of Middle Earth, it is entirely reasonable to assume that both the High Pass above Rivendell and the more southerly Redhorn Gate would be impassable in mid-winter when the Fellowship set out.

I live in England which Tolkien took as his pattern for north-west Middle Earth. I'm a few minuets drive from the southern end of a chain of hills called The Pennines. These hills are less than 3000 feet in elevation but before the developement of twentieth century machinery many routes through them would be closed for months in winter. Even now, some roads are regularly closed for days. During a particularly severe winter in the 1970s a village called Flash, just 15 miles from my home, was cut off by snow for over three weeks. It's people and their farm animals were supplied by helicopter while the road-clearing crews from three counties, assisted by the Army and the Royal Air Force, battled against the weather to clear just three miles of road. Flash is at the same latitude as the High Pass and the Misty Mountains are very much higher than the Pennines, so I have always taken for granted that the Fellowship could not cross to the East until later in the year.

I think that the fact that using the High Pass was not even considered in Rivendell means that there was more to it than just dodging a few orcs who were not under Sauron's control.
.

[Rhod the Red]

"Bilbo and company found themselves at the business end of a few rocks hurled by Stone Giants as they crossed the Misty Mountains, and Gandalf considered the possibility of borrowing one such rock to stop up the entrance to Goblin-Town. Or are you suggesting (as has been suggested before) that the Stone Giants were a product of Bilbo's fertile imagination?"

I'm sorry, I forgot that part. Though giants aren't mentioned to my memory in The Hobbit afterwars nor in The Lord of the Rings.

"I would suggest that you tone down your aggressive style as it is not conducive to reasoned discussion." I would hardly call my style aggressive. I was responsing to a point of view with contrary arguments. If I have used rude words, you will note, to use Legolas' favourite phrase, the Admin. have not edited my posts. Reasoned discissuon has not been halted by me, nor will it.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Rhod the Red

I would hardly call my style aggressive. I was responsing to a point of view with contrary arguments. If I have used rude words, you will note, to use Legolas' favourite phrase, the Admin. have not edited my posts. Reasoned discissuon has not been halted by me, nor will it.

Your posts have not been edited or deleted as we are a fairly tolerant lot here on the Downs. And, while tendentious, they do not quite qualify as trollish behaviour. Nevertheless, I would regard calling a fellow poster a liar and describing their comments as nonsense as being fairly aggressive, if not downright offensive. While there is ample room for disagreement on these discussion boards, such disagreement is best expressed politely and civilly. So please, take heed.

And I trust that’s an end to this little off-topic diversion.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Selmo and Formendacil make good arguments
about a Rhun route being questionable, but what about a
sea route to the area of Andrast using an elf ship?

[Rhod the Red]

"what about a sea route to the area of Andrast using an elf ship"

I have a reason why: It would mean that as the Fellowship would approach Mordor, it would be near the battle-centers bewteen Gondor and Mordor. It would not have been safe.

Crossing through the Misty Mountains, while hoping that Gondor would receive the brunt of Sauron's forces, was safer than travelling by the sea on the Southern shores of Gondor.

[Selmo]

Elrond rules out taking the Ring to Cirdan at the Grey Havens because it would be too dangerous. Frodo and the rest had only just made it to Rivendell and taking the Western Road back through the Shire to the sea would be anticipated by the Enemy; the road would be watched. Elrond was answering the argument that the Ring should by taken by sea to The West but it works the same for an attempt to go to Gondor by sea.

Also, Gandalf seemed to think it was very important to pass though Lorien, though he never gave his reasons.

[Legolas]

'That I feared it too,' Aragorn answered, `but less than other things. I knew the risk of snow, though it seldom falls heavily so far south, save high up in the mountains. But we are not high yet; we are still far down, where the paths are usually open all the winter.'

Aragorn says the risk of snow lessens in the south, and at lower altitudes. Therefore it can be logically deduced that risk of snow is greater in the north, and at higher altitudes. I wouldn't call that nonsense or speculation - it is inference.

It is illogical to think that Gandalf, Aragorn, the Fellowship, or the Council of Elrond were not thinking of risks. The whole route is planned for speed and avoiding danger as much as possible (which is why they don't go further south by the Gap of Rohan). Aragorn uses the word "risk" in the comment at the top of this post.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

Personally I would have went through the passage if I were Tolkien. But that just be my opinion. I mean I love the way iot is right now but is it possible they could have gone the other way?

Presumably, but why? Part of the appeal of LotR is that we get to see different worlds much unlike our own. And anyone who's played D&D know that there be treasure in those dark underground places...

Think about the journey of the Fellowship. We start in the Shire, which I would think that many could at least 'see,' even if the person were from an urban environment. We then travel though the Old Forest (just some animated trees) to Bree, where we start to meet some stranger folk (yes, I know that I skipped Bombadil). After that it's Weathertop (easy to imagine) then Rivendell, which starts us getting used to the nonhuman dwellings. Next it's a lot of scenery (how exciting is the crossing of Hollin?) then Moria, former home of the Dwarves and chock full of mystery and danger. Then we go to Lothlorien, which is completely strange, then down the river onto more human dwellings (but with the story having become full of more action, the scenery gets toned down a bit).

My point is that we needed to go through Moria to maintain the story and fantasy world. It's between Rivendell and Parth Galen that we dip back into the Second Age a bit; afterwards we return to the cusp of the Third and the Fourth Ages, and at that point the story is not so much "hey, look at this world," but "I've been walking with Sam and Frodo and Aragorn et al for so long now that I accept the fantastic scenery as normal and secondary to the lives of my 'walking companions'."

Hope that that makes some sense .

[Thinlómien]

I think I understand you, alatar.

I would like to add one more little thing to your theory, or maybe clear one of your points a bit: LotR is, in a way, a presentation of the diversity of Middle-Earth. If the fellowship wouldn't go through Moria, there'd be no glimpse of dwarven culture.

[davem]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Actually, there were. Bilbo and company found themselves at the business end of a few rocks hurled by Stone Giants as they crossed the Misty Mountains, and Gandalf considered the possibility of borrowing one such rock to stop up the entrance to Goblin-Town. Or are you suggesting (as has been suggested before) that the Stone Giants were a product of Bilbo's fertile imagination? If so, that's pure speculation and, in any event, contradicts the text as presented.

Interestingly (or not) the Graphic novel of The Hobbit actually depicts the Stone Giants hurling rocks.