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Old 09-13-2002, 12:00 AM   #41
Birdland
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All this talk of coffee importation begs the question: did they have mules in Middle-Earth, because they are the traditional beast of burden for such fare. I have yet to see mention of a donkey in M-E, and if the Rohanians had mules, they'd never admit it.

Oooooooh, and what about those biscotti? Could it be that the Elven lembas was, in fact, a crunchy, almond-flavored flatbread?

Though I suppose the Dwarves preferred crullers.

[ September 13, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]
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Old 09-13-2002, 12:42 AM   #42
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Well the are some incongruities that this raises.

MIDDLE-EARTH TRADE - FIRST INCONGRUITY

One is of commerce and the fact that in the LoTR one gets an image of a cut off world with relatively little in the way of trade, but I think that some of that is of recent cause (and overemphasized for dramatic effect) in that the war in Ithilien has only lately gotten hot, and Bilbo's time in the Hobbit was two human generations earlier.

But still, despite the distances across essentially uninhabited lands it is not unreasonable to have trade of certain commodities. Clearly, in the years after Smaug, dwarves and men are conducting business from Dorwinion to Bree. And, all that coastline was surely plied in a simple way. The elves of Lindon needn't have been completely isolated and through intermediaries could have traded with others by sea, and certainly with certain more mercantile-inclined Hobbits, such as Farmer Maggot. With Bilbo and Frodo we have independently wealthy types not really engaged beyond the final purchase.

So, what I think you have is an early-late Middle-Ages model where most economic activity is decidedly local and agrarian, and that's fine for almost all needs and wants. But various things that are not too bulky are traded up and down the line through intermediaries, whose markups are very modest my modern standards. But clearly, something like coffee might have been a bit of luxury, but affordable for a Baggins or dwarves in the company of Thorin Oakenshield of Durin's line. So, even if it came from Umbar or South Gondor, from folks who didn't give a camel's patooty about "The Dark Lord," between producer and consumer were many informal layers. Think of modern narcotics trade.

The biggest issue would not have been distance and communication, there are always folks ready to make the journey, and see if someone is interested in their goods. The real challenge would be the lack of clear monetary exchange and a reliance on barter, debts and some exchange of recognized units of species.

One thing that would suggest that interaction was until the last forty years of the Third Age not uncommon is the fact that Westron, the Common Tongue was so intelligible across so great an area of the Northwest Lands.

NOW WHERE WOULD THIS FIT INTO OUR HISTORY?

This incongruity is summed up by remembering this to be fantasy, that is beguiling non-fantastical, at times.

Clearly, Hobbits at least have rudimental clocks and other things that are technologically post-Medieval, and some of the footstuffs and fabrics are things that only entered European culture after extensive cntact with the Americas or the Orient.

Tolkien is not necessarily trying to create a Medieval world that ever necessarily existed. It is Middle-Earth not the Middle Ages.

Over more than six thousand years he is modeling military technology, political systems, codes of honor and so forth on a period of time that existed for all but two hundred years in the kingdoms of Alba, Cumbria, Mercia, Northumbria, Kent and Wessex.

He is looking at a very "English" world, not so much "Britain" that was Celtic and potentially Arthurian, and God forbid! ... not the Normanized world that most of us think of with Medieval England, but rather for the most part "Anglo-Saxon" which is what he taught, that nexus of fresh Christian fervor and Northern heroism.

Beyond this model, he is really in all else shooting for a merely pre-Industrial countryside world in terms of lifestyles, attitudes, culture and so forth. It is not so much primitive as rustic, and in some parts of Europe would not have been much different whether the year was 1900 or 490.

That some merchandise, metallurgy and devices in the Books were not widespread in Europe until the 17th Century, and yet things like cotton, printing and gunpowder are seemingly absent is curious, but it is a fantasy world, that is only like ours.

But in essence we underappreciate how little most peoples lives really changed for millenia before the Industrial Age of the mid 19th Century. The question is what does Tolkien capture and recast that is so dear about Middle-Earth, and whether or not in some deeper sense it reflects anything that really ever existed?

[ September 13, 2002: Message edited by: Man-of-the-Wold ]
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Old 09-13-2002, 12:59 AM   #43
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Interesting thoughts, M.O.W. It alsmost deserves a thread of its own, regarding Tolkien's choices as to what he included or didn't include in mythological "Britain". (I always wondered about the lack of the printing press, myself.)

Quote:
The real challenge would be the lack of clear monetary exchange and a reliance on barter, debts and some exchange of recognized units of species.
I can only assume that the people of Middle-Earth and parts South believed in the "gold standard". Various countries may have had their own versions of coin, but if it was gold, it was good. Some measure of worth may have been decided on, based on weight.

Possibly, a luxury item such as coffee must have been "worth its weight in gold."

And of course, "jools" could close a deal as well.
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Old 09-14-2002, 07:56 PM   #44
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-> That other "anachronism" thread
I'd like to shamelessly reiterate my musings made there that such possible anachronisms can just be translations, and that the cosmology of Middle-Earth need not be consistent with what is traditioned history from our point of view.
Also, I'd like to point to statements such as in the foreword to HoME VI which relativate the importance of The Hobbit and the early LotR chapters for the (canon of the) Legendarium.
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Old 09-14-2002, 09:52 PM   #45
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Sharkey, old man! Too rarely do you grace us with your presence. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

M-o-t-Wold, ah, but if there were no currency, then how do we explain Frodo's purse in Bree and his concerns that he didn't have enough to coin to pay such a rogue as Aragorn? Hm? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Or is that something only the Shire has?
(like umbrellas.)
Agreed however, that in the barbarian Far East we would need to barter. What do you think the West has that the East needs, Man of the World, er, Wold?

To tell you the truth, RPG-wise I find anything set after the War of the Ring distressing, all the elves leaving... But there was quite a boom-time in Dale and the Lonely Mountain after the death of Smaug, n'est pas? All sorts of abandoned trade routes opening up. And the Necromancer of Dol Guldur gone (or so it seems). We would have to find sponsorship of course, such ventures are expensive, do 'market research' (ask up and down our trade routes a year beforehand). Dwarves typically apprentice to a family member for at least a year or two. There is the traditional reading of omens - dwarves are as superstitious as baseball players and gamblers.

Shall we start with the scrying?

-Maril

[ September 15, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]
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Old 09-16-2002, 03:22 AM   #46
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Man of the Wold is right.

However I’ll make some notes.

- Purchase did not historically suffice to bring about types like Frodo and Bilbo. Such lifestyle and security as theirs (and that of some of their peers) requires not so much a monetary wealth, but steady income. Land and tradegoods were source of that in the earlier times but both require work to produce sustenance, even if Frodo and Bilbo had been slavemasters, they would have had to work supervising their cotton fields. Their lifestyle of ”idle class” requires advanced banking of 1600’s at least when it became a possibility to inherit a ”living interrest.” Earlier generations of Bagginses have created a nest egg that gives Bilbo and Frodo the option of becomning self made academics, gentleman poets and loremasters.

- Clocks – Mechanical clocks & locks were not invented till WAY latter era then middle ages, matches evident in the hobbit I’d estimate were invented around 1800’s. They had been invented in middle earth nevertheless. Dwarves have the requirement skills of metallurgy/chemistry and they do trade, those mines are not self sufficient. After all were clocks invented in middle earth before they were in ours or was it rather that muskets were invented after they were in ours? Eh? Different world.

- Coffee? Shire has temperate environment so coffee cannot grow there. Middle earth has less ragged coastline then middle ages Europe.Therefore structure of land trade would be more advanced and that of seatrade less. Trade is not discussed in the epic as it is everyday business. It is not as interresting or romantic for hobbit historians as it was for those of middle ages europe, percisely because it is more routine and structured and caravans of adventurous traders do not travel thousands of kilometers with news and tales. Hobbits might well have sold leaf, textiles & foodstuffs to Bree and bought other things from there. Maybe only Bucklanders (right translation I hope) who were considered strange traded with Bree and other hobbits with bucklanders. All of this routine trade happens in small hops of few dozen miles. Breemen get coffee by buying it from southern neighbours who buy it from southern neighbours who buy... It would have courced by several dozens of hands each time increasing in value just a bit before reaching shire. Bilbo must have felt pride in being able to offer the dwarwes coffee though he himself preferred one of the many local variations of (herbal?) tea. Maybe someone in Harad would have felt the same pride in being able to seat ones guests on hobbitmade nettle-textile mats... without even knowing what kind of creatures made them, only that they were from the far north and were wonderfully soft. After all there were no inns like prancing pony in the middle age society either. Travellers were rare occurance and they came from afar. In middle earth they are daily occurance and come from the closeby village.

- Bilbos silken clothes – imports from China? Potatoes from America? No. Silk could have, and nowadays is manufactured in Europe, the limiting factor is not the climate in China, but the spread of silkenworm. In ME there are no places called China or Europe or America. Silk cloth was manufactured by hobbits or men from silk harvested from silkenworms native to Eriador of middle earth. Same goes to potatoes.

- Stirrups and scale mail? What comes to the low point of tech in ME, several types of armor historically made obsolite by plate mail (400-700? AD) ar used. Warchariot is used and Lance is not. This implies that stirrups have not been invented and also explains why battles are usually fought afoot exept for some masterfull horse-people like rohirrim and easterlings, who use swords and spears for charges and mounted archery for skirmishes. All of this would date the military tech of ME to level corresponding our date definately preceeding 700AD.

All things like this lead to simple conclusions. By inclusion of things like clocks Tolkien wishes to emphasise that this world is not that of ours of any period. Middle earth is basically what our world could have been if wars only had occurred once in few hundreds of years or so and the great expeditions and industrial revolution not at all. It has thousands of years of history and devlopment along theese lines and trade, botany, agriculture, artisanly crafts, social organisations etc are highly developed. It cannot be compared to our world where socially developed artisan society is contradiction in terms. Our world pretty much transcended from self sustained life in homemade clothes directly to industrial eras mail catalogue shirts. The shire is pretty much anachronistic utopia.

Janne Harju
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Old 09-16-2002, 12:29 PM   #47
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Birdie, the gold-standard is probably the rule. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] There are clearly coins in the Shire, and thus likely the same or similar are used in Bree. I think there is probably no universal standard, which can work for and against an intrepid dwarven caravan, plying trade in the far east.

Mark12_30, Child of the 7th Age asked me if she could use the coffee idea for an RPG she and Mithadan are working on. I've been toying with the idea of starting a merchantile RPG, but only toying with it. I think I should participate first in an RPG before having the gall to start one. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Bombur, lighten up. If you had read the entire thread you would know that this is not a debate but a lighthearted romp. If your English were a little better you would have read my good friend M-o-t-Wold's drily amused, tongue in cheek tone. If your post was intended to be playful, but your English can't quite carry it off: use the smilies. That's what they're for.

-Maril
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Old 09-17-2002, 12:27 AM   #48
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Quote:
I think I should participate first in an RPG before having the gall to start one.
Oooooh! Oooooh! Join one of ours, Maril! We could call it "Coffee, Tea, or Mīm?"
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Old 09-17-2002, 01:31 AM   #49
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1420!

Lighten up? Is that something edible? [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

I did read the thread, did not think to debate, but ponder. Sorry.

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Old 09-18-2002, 12:32 AM   #50
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Birdie, okay! But only if I can play some character that doesn't belong at all, like a cagey, slightly overweight (and very eccentric) dwarf, too old to be going on adventures, but too rich to deny. Especially when the company's down on their luck.

What adventures do you recommend? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

bombur, 'lighten up' is something you drink, in fact, it's put in coffee: non-dairy creamer. It was given to the elves by the Valar in YT 200, before the introduction of coffee to the men of Numenor. The elves have yet to thank them for the vile stuff... it was the Hobbits, the Hornblowers in fact who were the first ones to put it in coffee. I think Toma Hornblower's exact words were: "well, if that don't disguise the taste, then nothing will."

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Old 09-18-2002, 12:42 AM   #51
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Maril - The Valar invented "Coffee-Mate"?

All my illusions have been shattered.
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Old 09-18-2002, 08:26 AM   #52
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The Valar invented Non-dairy creamer? Your posts are a constant revelation, Maril. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
Birdie, perhaps the Valar didn't intend the stuff to be drunk: coffee-mate might have been originally intended as a poultice to smear on Balrog-wounds before binding them up.
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Old 09-18-2002, 08:29 AM   #53
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To facilitate the healing of, perhaps, a broken wing? A difficult patient, I fear.
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Old 09-18-2002, 08:33 AM   #54
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If only Fėanor had stayed faithful and survived. The invention of espresso, ice-blended mochas, et al may have come millenia sooner.
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Old 09-18-2002, 08:44 AM   #55
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Wishful thinking, I tell you, folks. You've overlooked what Unfinished Tales has to say about Saruman's activities in The Shire. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Bethberry

[ September 18, 2002: Message edited by: Bethberry ]
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Old 09-18-2002, 08:45 AM   #56
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I'll take a double-whipped, caffeine free Noldocinno, with a sprinkle of Silmaril. Make it a large and bill to: Rimbaud, West Beleriand. (Hah! That'll fool them. They'll never fnd my old house now...)

[ September 18, 2002: Message edited by: Rimbaud ]
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Old 09-18-2002, 08:57 AM   #57
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Rimbaud

I know EXACTLY where that is located, and will be sending the Oarni to collect directly!
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Old 09-18-2002, 09:00 AM   #58
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Hmm... those Silmaril sprinkles don't come cheap, either. I hear Angband welcomes fugitives on the run, and collection agents can almost never track you down in one of their deep pits. Of course, the downside is you could end up rooming with a Balrog, but hey -- if you can't do the time...

P.S. -- caffeine-free?! That is the brew of Mordor; I think you could probably get yourself shunned from Valinor for serving decaf to guests.

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Old 09-18-2002, 09:48 AM   #59
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You are all a bunch of wussy Starbuck Elves (You know, the ones that sailed West, but turned right at Seattle.)

I like my coffee like my Nazguls: strong and black.

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Old 09-18-2002, 10:01 AM   #60
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You and me both, Birdie! I'm sipping some of that old black Joe as I type this. But I can very well imagine elves drinking prissy fou-fou drinks.
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Old 09-18-2002, 10:06 AM   #61
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I'm with the strong, black crowd. Or, as Eddie Izzard put it: 'I like my women like I like my coffee...in a plastic cup.' However, Noldocinno seemed irresistable at the time, funny how life turns out. To stay vaguely within the boundaries of on-topic-atude, was there trade 'twixt Grey Havens and further West of any description? Express or implied.

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Old 09-18-2002, 02:08 PM   #62
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*Cranks up her new Gaggia Espresso Maker*
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Old 09-18-2002, 04:32 PM   #63
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Hullo Bethberry,

I trust you're not including me among those "wishful-thinking folks."

From an earlier private conversation that you and I had, you know of my awareness of Saruman's involvement in the Shire early on as per Unfinished Tales. I have indeed based both my posts in this thread as well as my entire On Patrol RPG on the inspiration I received from Unfinished Tales. Hence the underlying premise of Saruman's henchmen (whom I referred to as "smugglers" in the RPG) causing trouble along the roads. Thank you for pointing out that literary basis here. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I look forward to joining you at the Bonfire Glade Picnic sometime tonight, my friend! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

* bows most cordially *

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Old 09-18-2002, 07:19 PM   #64
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Have we insider trade information on early activities of Saruman in the Shire, circa Bilbo's era, Mr. Gandalf? Won't that get you in trouble with the MEC? (Maia Exchange Commission)

-Maril
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Old 09-19-2002, 10:51 AM   #65
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Due to a prior complaint, filed by Shire Access Management (S.A.M.), MEC's action is in second place and may not be heard this year. S.A.M.'s action comprises dual complaints from Baggins Industrial Legacies (Baggins Oil), or B.I.L.B.O., and the Farthing Real Oil Distributors and Outfitters, F.R.O.D.O.

Once these actions have been put before the Internal Suspicious Tampering And Relocation Industrial tribunal (the I.S.T.A.R.I. trbunal) and dealt with, the MEC action may proceed.
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Old 09-19-2002, 12:49 PM   #66
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With due respect, Rimbaud, the jurisdictional precedents are quite clear here. In fact, Saruman himself as an emissary of the Valar qualifies for diplomatic immunity and may only be tried by a court of his own jurisdiction. Let's see the highest court in Valinor is...uh oh, Mandos. Objection withdrawn, proceed.
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Old 09-19-2002, 02:05 PM   #67
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If it were Tulkas on the other hand...
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Old 09-19-2002, 02:35 PM   #68
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ah yes treachery through coffe, the sweetest kind...

just passing through and saw the word coffee- my mouth wouldnt let me stop but ill, um, be leaving...now...
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Old 09-19-2002, 04:19 PM   #69
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Welcome to the Downs! All coffee-drinkers are doubly welcome. In this thread at least.

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Old 09-20-2002, 11:03 AM   #70
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Well, this is quite the runaway topic. I'm glad to have spiced it up. ... Hmmmm? Spices? I should research what herbs & spice do and do not get cited in the books.

Good points. I think Bombur has excellent points that must be given more study. I do believe that 5th century Goth's had stirrups, but it is a reasonable deduction to say that Middle-Earth never did.

There are a lot of good things for new topics. One that I would start is based on my observation that the commonality of Westron would point to a world much better interconnected through commerce and so forth over from the latter Second Age through most of the Third Age. Of course, it is also a bit of a literary convenience not unlike the ubiquitous of English among countless planets in TV/film ... {two words, begin with Star __}

On the question of money, it is quite clear that a number of different coins of gold and silver ("species") were used and recognized across large (rather empty!) areas of Middle-Earth, as the exchanges at Bree indicate, not to mention the wealth that Bilbo and Frodo had. Although they may have rented land, from which was derived income, more would have had to been said if that was a big part of their "wealth".

No, I just wanted to point out that in comparison to, say, even the "Gold Standard" world of one to two centuries ago, much less our modern world, that trade would have been somewhat handicapped by the lack of clearly regular forms of money as media for exchange, or simply from a lack of "liquidity" or readily obtainable credit. Nowhere is much said in the way of bankers or lenders in Middle-Earth.

But just as clearly much commerce could be done, as it was for centuries even in the "dark ages", provided one could inspect the coinage carefully, and certainly Gondor, Rohan, Dale and possibly the Beornings had the economic stability to legally sanction certain forms of money, which can be important even for denominations directly based on precious metals. Hence, the Italians did so well for centuries because they would maintain and protect monetary standards that were then respected and used throughout much of the Western World.

Finally, on the question that Tolkien's reference to rather latter-day goods and inventions is a result of translation and approximation, I think that that is fair. He may have wanted to make references simply so that we could understand. But it does sort of wrap one up in ball, whereas it is just as reasonable to assume that he wrote what he felt conveyed his immediate purpose, and that Hobbits running around with coffee, tabacco and matches was just fine, even in the context of world that in other ways was barely out of the Iron Age.

Remember the Elves, Dwarves and Numenoreans were operating in many ways with an entirely different cultural technological paradigm that could not be readily transferred.
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Old 09-21-2002, 07:22 AM   #71
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About preference in coffee, it was said: ”I like my coffee like my Nazguls: strong and black.”

How about this ME version of Finnish saying: Coffee shoul be enjoyed as black as is Sauron (satan), as hot as is mount doom (hell), as pure as is Luthien (angel) and as sweet as is love. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

I just have to add about the monetary system of ME... Minted money has value in addition to its gold content. To my understanding even in the post middle age Europe every local baron was minting his own coin. As far as the face / emblem stamped on it was recognised, the coin was worth more then gold. Farther it was worth exactly what the gold in it was. So basically in the 15th century or so, currencies of Milan, Venice and Genova etc. were worth more then gold all around Europe because everyone at least was trading with someone who was trading with someone who knew that he can trade the coin for more value with the renaiccance Italian traders. That is why every ancient trasurehoard in Europe contains golden dublon - coin. Finnish graves excavated from the pre swedish (tribal lands with no centralised authority) period contain Byzantium coin from some 2000km away from here. It would have been worth more then the golden armband chipped by weight used internally by many viking nations and Finnish tribes as well (though lot of trade here in north was barter). Why did it have value? Because the same east sailing vikings who traded pattern welded swords for pelts in finnish coasts also sailed along russian rivers to Byzantium to trade pelts for silk and they knew that Bysantite traders give more silk for their own coin then for goldchip. Value of currency is largely a social agreenment. Currency is like a transportable and intercahangable notebook... ”Yes, we could just trade product for product, but give me two for one now and I give you this yellow circle and anyone in this city will give you two for one for it tomorrow.”

If the trade in middle earth is by land and in small steps, then currency system is very different. Coin stays in relatively small area if there is no shortcuts along the sea (In Europe you can never be more then 500 km or so from nearest coast and likely never more then few dozen km from closest sailable river.... not so in ME... ok... not so in China either but China is always different. They had unified imperial currency at 4th century or so... BC). Everyone uses the coin to buy from those who give best price. This means that in Bree, shirecoin recieved as payment for coffee ( [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] ) buys from shire and not the soutern traders. Tharbad coin recieved as payment for hobbit nettletextile, pipeweed and herbal teas buys coffee from the southerners. Trader gets his profits in Breecoin by selling portion of the textile, tea, weed and coffee to Breemen. Thus the exeptional far traveling hobbit will note a strange inflation... farther one gets from home the more expensive everything is and by Esgaroth the barman will look at his coin funny and take scales from under counter. The coin is good everywhere since it is of precious metal, but it buys most close to home where the stamp has some value. I think coin of Gondor bearing the face of Elendil still would most likely be the only one in the ME to be worth more then it’s weight everwhere as everyone knows that if they pass it down along the Anduin or the great southern road, it will EVENTUALLY reach a place of importance where it is worth more then its weight. To give more then the weight value for coin a trader needs to know for himself that it has more value somewhere and at least the general direction of that somewhere. In such situation coinery remains very unified and local, only carried by the pockets of stray far-travelling hobbit and trader returning the coin to the direction of greater value. Gondor coin will tend to drift back to Gondor and every other coin accepted at the weight value will tend to eng up to a local goldsmith or mint as a raw materiale. Another type of omnipresent coin might be dwarwen coin. As dwarves travel along the east-west road and propably everyone knows that they give better value in goods or work to the coin stamped with the beard of Durin in iron mountais.

What comes to the ”idle class gentlemen,” like the Bagginses, moneylending and land leasing takes a amount of work as well. Ask any medieval jew or baron.

Of this I have no EXACT FACTUAL knowledge... some reference and conjecture only. It would seem to me that at some point of history between the Hansa trading houses and the London stockmarket a consept if interrest and investment fund arose as a type of contract. Maybe the 16th century, 17th century, maybe the 18th, however at some point this system developed. And I might emphasise that it arose in the upper middle class or lower upperclass. Basically it was a pension system. With something like 25 units of money you could buy a contract for 1 unit a year thereafter. Such contract would be bought from established businesman or even kings state funds (maybe even Lotho made such contracts) whom you trust not to be bankrupted. This maybe was a step between the modern banker and medieval moneylender. Such contract did not have expiration date, such money could not be withdrawn as it can be from modern bank, the contract and the income could be transferred as heritage.

Though I am far to the political left, I’d have to say that thing like this is to a degree a beneficial historical devlopment. Many a artist, author or philosopher was a son of average wealth bourgoise family, that had passed him some small income by such contract for a ”living interrest”. Van Gogh sold I think one single painting for money while living. Had there not existed such form of social contract, there would not have been a poor painter meagerly getting by, but a coalminer eating his hard earned bread and mutterintg that he just knows he could have been something.


Janne Harju


Ps. spices... you would not believe the amount of plants usable as spice grow natural in temperate zone. Cellery, chives parsley, hop, mustardseed, mint, garlic, onion, tansy, mugvort, basil, sorrle, wildmint, gale, caraway, meadowsweet, juniper, rowan, nettle and henbane all have uses as spice and are only the ones I KNOW to be universal in european continent, the ones the name of which I know in english. If the hobbit kitchen is at all related to english, they do not need imported spices. I rather can see them having small herb gardens everyone.
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Old 01-17-2003, 10:34 PM   #72
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Pipe

Did they drink milk as a beverage and not just like a creamer or an extra ingrediant?

And does anyone know where online I could find some hobbit recipes like cakes or something?
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Old 01-18-2003, 12:38 AM   #73
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recipe link

[ January 18, 2003: Message edited by: Tar-Palantir ]
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Old 01-18-2003, 03:15 AM   #74
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Hm, let's see.
Dwarves moving to the Ered Luin came through the Shire. Maybe that's were Bilbo got the coffee from. But where did the Dwarves get their coffee from?
I think we shouldn't forget that "The Hobbit" was written for Tolkien's kids, who were not supposed to ask such questions as we do here.
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Old 01-18-2003, 04:53 AM   #75
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Yes, but it was written by JRR Tolkien, one of the most notorious literary perfectionists ever to take up a pen.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to be speculating on The Origins of Bilbo's Coffee. Besides, it gives some of these more elderly posters a place to gambol about, without the shame of being seen in the Middle-Earth Mayhem forum.
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Old 01-19-2003, 11:06 PM   #76
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Coffee beans to the Shire? Same as coconuts to England - African swallows.

Sometimes the obvious escapes you.
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Old 01-22-2003, 06:03 PM   #77
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Its not a question whether the swallow could grip it. It is simple question of weight ratios. A 5 oz bird could not carry a one pound coconut.

Listen, in order to maintain air speed velocity a swallow needs to beat its wings 43 times every second, right?

Am I right?

Oh yea, African swallow maybe could, but not European swallow. But then again the African swallow is a non-migratory.
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Old 01-22-2003, 06:28 PM   #78
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Monty Python, LOL. I don't have Holy Grail memorized, so I'm afraid I cannot add to that.
Ever wonder why Bilbo's mother is named after a powerful sedative? Make you wonder what those Tooks are really doing on their little 'adventures'...
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Old 01-23-2003, 08:07 AM   #79
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The whole swallow angle's spurious anyway. Coffee beans are carried into the North and West of Middle-earth in huge sacks by migrating Balrogs. Nobody knows why.

The beans are roasted in transit and fall in the creature's wake as the sack burns away. For many years Special squads of coffee-pickers have followed any migratory-looking Balrogs with dustpans and brushes, selling the regathered beans in the markets of Gondor, Arnor and Rohan for a tidy profit.
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Old 01-23-2003, 08:23 AM   #80
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And don't forget M-E's version of Kopi Luak, which also falls from the Balrog...but not from his sack. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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