Silmarillion - Ainulindale

[Raynor]

We are told that the Children – Men and Elves – entered only in the third theme; what then is the significance of the Second?

In the Ainulindale it is stated that:

But Manwe was the brother of Melkor in the mind of Iluvatar, and he was the chief instrument of the second theme that Iluvatar had raised up against the discord of Melkor; and he called unto himself many spirits both greater and less, and they came down into the fields of Arda and aided Manwe, lest Melkor should hinder the fulfilment of their labour for ever, and Earth should wither ere it flowered.

I believe that the second theme reffers to the period starting from the actual begining of Ea up to the coming of the elves (~1050 valarian year) [or, maybe, up to the chaining of Melkor (1090 VY)]. During these period there occured the wars between the valar and Melkor, in which Manwe was, of course, the chief good guy.

[Aiwendil]

Lalwende - I knew I remembered some previous discussion on the topic of Bombadil and the Ainulindale. Thanks for the link!

Drigel wrote:

Given that science is now beginning to understand that a particle can also be a wave (quantum) at the same time, I find the author extremely intuitive, and far ahead of his time (and his dicipline).

I do find it interesting that some "primitive" notions about the universe turn out to resemble modern physical theories in some ways. Nonetheless, as a physics grad student, I must point out that quantum mechanics is not something one could simply "intuit" without knowledge about physics, and about certain particular experimental results at that.

However, both quantum mechanics and the big bang have been well-known since the 1920s-1930s. So it's certainly not impossible that Tolkien had some basic familiarity with them.

Raynor wrote:

I believe that the second theme reffers to the period starting from the actual begining of Ea up to the coming of the elves (~1050 valarian year) [or, maybe, up to the chaining of Melkor (1090 VY)]. During these period there occured the wars between the valar and Melkor, in which Manwe was, of course, the chief good guy.

I like this theory; it seems very sensible to me.

[Macalaure]

Though Tolkien might have been familiar with physics, I really doubt he had them in the back of his head when he wrote the Music of the Ainur. There are probably parallels to other myths of creation, I don't know. Regardless, I just happen to think that the creation of the world by music is a breath-takingly romantic idea. It doesn't deserve to be spoiled by cold science.


Concerning the meaning of the Second Theme, I came to believe that it signifies the Marring of Arda.

The First Theme starts as the Creation of Arda in perfection. Then Melkor tries to bring in his own stuff and it ends in chaos. If there was no second theme and the Music continued with the third now, we probably wouldn't miss it: Arda is created, then we have endless war between the Valar and Melkor, then Melkor is chained and Eru's children enter. Works perfectly to me, no gap. What is special about the Second Theme is that, in the end, Melkor had the mastery. Sure, he did have mastery over Middle-earth from the raising of the Pelóri until his chaining, but I doubt this is enough to deserve a theme of its own.

I never regarded the Music as a sort of chronology, with each note symbolising some event. Horribly simplified, I see it as a 'manual' for world-builders. Eru shows its children how the world is going to be like. Now, this would mean that Melkor, for a time, has the mastery over the creation of the world. While his influence on the First Theme I imagine to have been more on the 'snowflake-level', his influence on the second was serious - and I can only think of the Marring in this respect.


What I wondered about is, Eru tells Melkor that nothing can be played that has not its source in him. This holds explicitly for Melkor's discords. Wouldn't this then mean that all the evil that Melkor brought into the world has its source in Ilúvatar, too? I mean, where else could it have come from if Melkor couldn't invent it himself? And if Melkor deserves punishment for his deeds, why doesn't Eru?
I hope I won't be stoned for this blasphemy...

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Don't worry, no stones.

The way I take this passage is that Eru created the phenomenon of Music, so if Melkor chose to introduce a loud strain of dissonance, Eru could still make some pleasant music result. He understood how to do this since this music and its instruments are of his thought, and have their source in him. I do not think that this implies that Eru is evil. It is interesting that later on the degree of evil in Sauron seems to be tied to how self-serving he is. Melkor is clearly shown to be such a one.

Perhaps these higher beings are in a perfect balance, so that they should be seen as neither good nor bad entities, but Melkor has become somehow unbalanced, falling toward the evil end of the spectrum. Maybe this is why his brother Manwë is toward the side of good, in order to recover the balance. I mention this only because it has troubled me that these two were brothers in the thought of Iluvatar, and it is one way I could reconcile the thought of it.

[Macalaure]

The way I take this passage is that Eru created the phenomenon of Music, so if Melkor chose to introduce a loud strain of dissonance, Eru could still make some pleasant music result.

How I read it is, that the dissonance, though played with the intention to disturb, still has its source within Eru, and therefore is no dissonance, but only perceived as such.

I do not think that this implies that Eru is evil. It is interesting that later on the degree of evil in Sauron seems to be tied to how self-serving he is. Melkor is clearly shown to be such a one.

So if Melkor played what he played not out of vanity, but to enrich the whole, it would not have been evil or turn to evil. That makes sense.
But the Ainur were the offspring of Eru's thought, so Melkor's vanity and lust for power had its source in Eru. This way, again, evil has its source in Eru.

I just keep sticking to this because Eru is always portrayed as being wholly good, and I don't think this is possible.

[Aldarion Elf-Friend]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

But the Ainur were the offspring of Eru's thought, so Melkor's vanity and lust for power had its source in Eru. This way, again, evil has its source in Eru.

This is another interesting depature from Tolkien's traditional Christianity. Eru says very straightforward that:

Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien

...thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite.

This kind of moves toward the hyper-Calvanist position that minimizes the idea of free will, and stands in contrast to the more comfortable idea Eru simply takes what Melkor devised for his own glory, and uses it to make the whole that much more glorious.

[Aiwendil]

I don't know - I've always seen Tolkien's treatment of evil in his works as rather Augustinian. Augustine wrote in The City of God:

The sins of men and angels do nothing to impede the "great works of the Lord which accomplish His will." For He who by His providence and omnipotence distributes to every one his own portion, is able to make good use not only of the good, but also of the wicked. And thus making a good use of the wicked angel, who, in punishment of his first wicked volition, was doomed to an obduracy that prevents him now from willing any good, why should not God have permitted him to tempt the first man, who had been created upright, that is to say, with a good will?

For who will dare to believe or say that it was not in God's power to prevent both angels and men from sinning? But God preferred to leave this in their power, and thus to show both what evil could be wrought by their pride, and what good by His grace.

This sounds to me rather like Iluvatar's warning to Melkor. Melkor's deeds remain evil - Augustine is emphatically not saying that evil is really good - but Iluvatar in his omnipotence is able to work good by means of them. I don't necessarily see this as implying fatalism or the predestination of Calvin.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

J.R.R. Tolkien
...thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite.

I think it might be important to note that in this quote it does not say that 'nothing maybe played that hath not its uttermost source in me', but rather 'no theme maybe played'. The themes were composed by Ilúvatar, and Melkor's improvisation cannot alter those basic themes, even though they were not in the sheet music. He cannot usurp the role of composer.

Even though Melkor is a product of Ilúvatar’s thought, this does not necessarily mean that Ilúvatar has an element of evil within him, though he undoubtedly can conceive of it. If Melkor had been a product or aspect of Illuvatar's personality, than you would indeed be right. But as it is, one can imagine evil without being evil one's self.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I beg pardon for joining in this discussion so belatedly, but as I was away from home when it began, I have only now been able to read the contributions so far. I've enjoyed the many good thoughts here!

I do like this part of the Sil complex, and I too enjoyed listening to the spoken version. As a musician, of course the connection between creation and music fascinates me most. C. S. Lewis' use of a similar idea for the creation of Narnia was mentioned only briefly, yet is the one reference that occurred to me first when I read the Ainulindalë. I went back to reread it now (in The Magician's Nephew) to compare the similaraties and differences.

Narnia has only one creative singer, Aslan.

A voice had begun to sing... Sometimes it seemed to come from all directions at once. Sometimes he [Digory] almost thought it was coming out of the earth beneath them. Its lower notes were deep enough to be the voice of the earth herself. There were no words. There was hardly even a tune. But it was, beyond comparison, the most beautiful noise he had ever heard.

(Bêthberry, it's interesting that Lewis does use the feminine pronoun for the earth here...)

Then the stars join in the song:

...the voice was suddenly joined by other voices; more voices than you could possibly count. They were in harmony with it, but far higher up the scale: cold, tingling, silvery voices...
The new stars and the new voices began at exactly the same time. It you had seen or heard it... you would have felt certain that it was the stars themselves who were singing, and that it was the First Voice, the deep one, which had made them appear and made them sing.

The sound of the music has definite similarities to the creative work which appears, more precisely defined here than in Tolkien's account:

Polly was finding the song more and more interesting because she thought she was beginning to see the connection between the music and the things that were happening...
When you listened to his song you heard the things he was making up: when you looked round you, you saw them.

Plants, animals, all have their specific musical sounds.


This brings me to a great work of musical genius which concerns the Biblical creation story: Haydn's Creation oratorio. It is a work I know well and dearly love, especially for the picturesque nature of the instrumental passages, which are directly related to what is happening at that point in time - primordial chaos, rippling runs for water, a great roar for the lion, etc. (For those who are interested, there's more description here: Creation. Of course, it only musically describes creation, which is not taking place by means of music; still, it's wonderfully inspiring to hear a musical version of the creation story.

I actually like Tolkien's version, which introduces his idea of sub-creativity in having the Ainur actively involved in the process of creation. I think it's a clever way of reconciling the pantheistic myths with the One God of Judeo-Christian theology.

[Rikae]

Forgive me for resurrecting an ancient thread, but I'm just returning to the Silmarillion after20 years, and I have to talk about it!

Specifically, if I may, I'd like to agree with this "blasphemy" and perhaps, go a step farther toward the dark side :

Originally Posted by Mac

How I read it is, that the dissonance, though played with the intention to disturb, still has its source within Eru, and therefore is no dissonance, but only perceived as such.

This was my first thought on reading Eru's words as well. In fact, it seems obvious to me that Tolkien went to great pains not to have Eru call the dissonance evil; in fact, he repeatedly highlights ways in which Melkor's attempted destruction becomes part of the process of creation; of the new themes, the third theme's beauty even comes chiefly from its sadness; the snow; the clouds.
There is something here that transcends good and evil; the idea of the beauty of sadness and the creative power of dissonance. Logically, it fits with the idea of the universe as a work of art - the introduction of conflict and dissonance is important in all the arts, whether the tension between colors or asymmetrical compositions in the visual arts; dissonance or syncopation in music, or conflict in literature; chaos and discord tend to spur richer creations. Now, obviously once the world is created and we're thrust into the work of art itself, these things are depicted as evil - this is part of the perspective of one inside the story, and therefore, necessary - but I see the Ainulindale as "outside" the world/story (hence the different style), and from this perspective 'good' and 'evil' collapse back to a single root.
"And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite."' Absolutely says that Melkor, his discordance, and all that arise from it originates with Eru; which I don't so much see as meaning Eru is partly evil, but that Eru is simply a creator, transcending good and evil; that what we call evil is a creative force, just as what we call good is.
"For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."
If this doesn't seem to fit with Tolkien's Catholicism, bear in mind I'm suggesting this is a sort of overarching solution to the "problem of evil" as seen from a place outside of space and time, so to speak, where such dualities as good and evil dissolve; this doesn't mean that the dualities are meaningless within the creation; paradoxically, it's essential to creation that they remain separate within it while being unified outside of it.

OK, all I really wanted to say is this book is good enough for Jehovah! (Stone her!)

[aiea]

If you like you could thank me to resurrect an ancient thread I start with a question and post here a interesting theory about music and creation.
The creation myths has to answer some questions that could be not grasped with normal logic. It are the contradictions that speak to the unconscious mind of the reader that had to find an internal conciliation .
My question:
Manwe:air
Ulmo: water
Aule & c: earth
Melkor: fire ? (this is the question )
But not the eternal fire (that is both with Iluvatar both on Arda) just a part of it.
This is the tale :


The Cosmic Sacrificing Satan
-------------------------------------------

In the beginning, the Creator was alone, in the ratio 1:1, and having unopposed Will, Being and Consciousness, he deigned to create a universe to enjoy so he moved in a dream away from himself and looked back. This was the Ratio of 2:1, but being of God's own nature, it was perfect and equivalent and he only stared back at himself. This in music is the "octave".

Being perfect has significant problems. Anything that is perfect has no reason to change and no reason to move, so that the Creator was at a standstill. No "time" or "space" existed. Without "time" or "space" the universe collapsed back into the unsullied being of the Creator.

Again and again the Creator tried to create a universe to enjoy but each attempt brought the same results. No time or space and no change or movement, so that his creation kept going "poof" and dissolving back into his perfect nature.

Being lonely, he decided to create companions for himself so he created the Archangels which were also perfect, one on each side of him. To his right was Lucifer, the light-bringer and guardian of energy, and to his left Gabriel, the guardian of matter. These stood in Ratios of 3:2 and 4:3 and were the first Holy Trinity with no faults or flaws.

Still, being perfect in Trinity, the Creator was stymied. There was no "time" in which events could occur nor "space" for them to occur in. So he asked a favor of the Archangels; asking who loved him enough to diminish himself and take on the role of the Satan, which means opposer. This would be a being that would create asymmetry in the universe, making it imperfect, and allowing things to have a wish for movement and change. Something would need to act as a stopgap, not allowing any created thing to achieve perfection. This would enable the creation to rotate and swirl in an everlasting movement of agony and hope.

Lucifer the first born stepped up and declared that he would diminish himself. In music this is the most dissonant interval, in a ratio of 45:32, and is called the Devil's Interval, and is as far away from the 1 as possible. So the Creator let Lucifer be diminished, and asymmetry was born, and with it, "time" and "space". Lucifer became the "Cosmic Prodigal Son", who denies any created thing from reaching perfection, because if any single thing reached perfection, the entire universe would disappear.

In music, Satan created all the dissonance, and the Devil's Interval (1 -- bV -- I) is the ground root of all musical movement by reason of it's extreme dissonance which demands resolution, and makes music as well as all things "move" and "change". In Music this is called the Cycle of Fifths/Fourths and it has 12 stations or "notes" which rotate around in an endless spiral. Just as the Major scale is the static law of music; all scales and chords coming from it, the cycle of Fifths is the involutionary movement, the Divine Fiat of the creator, and movements along the Cycle of Fourths are the hope of all things who have found themselves in the world of multiplicity to return to the bosom of the Creator. But they are not allowed to do so, by the denying force of the opposer.

[Morthoron]

Melkor played jazz. The free-form improvisation and syncopated beats threw off the classicist snobs among the Ainur.