The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > Novices and Newcomers
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-27-2006, 05:02 PM   #1
Morgoth Bauglir
Shade of Carn Dűm
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 252
Morgoth Bauglir has just left Hobbiton.
oldest person in middle earth

or oldest elf i guess...at the time of the end of the third age.

wouldnt it be galadriel?
Morgoth Bauglir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2006, 06:10 PM   #2
mormegil
Maundering Mage
 
mormegil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 4,667
mormegil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.mormegil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
I think it is Cirdan the Shipwight.
__________________
When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.
-- P. J. O'Rourke
mormegil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2006, 12:07 AM   #3
narfforc
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
narfforc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Muddy-earth
Posts: 1,307
narfforc has been trapped in the Barrow!
Mormegil is correct, Cirdan took part in the westward journey of the Elves, and was amongst those who searched longest for Elwe. Finarfin being the son of Finwe was born in the Blessed Realm along with his own daughter Galadriel, somewhat later.
__________________
[B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER.
narfforc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2006, 08:15 AM   #4
Bęthberry
Cryptic Aura
 
Bęthberry's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,159
Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Leaf

Right, best to keep it to elves, as factoring in Treebeard and Bombadil raises that other thorny question.

I don't think anyone has ever asked how old Goldberry is. Since she has some power to control the weather, one would think she is belongs to the earlier characters who shaped Arda, although obviously her mother would be older than her. No time travelling confusions here!
__________________
I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.
Bęthberry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2006, 11:16 AM   #5
mormegil
Maundering Mage
 
mormegil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 4,667
mormegil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.mormegil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
How old is Glorfindel?
__________________
When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.
-- P. J. O'Rourke
mormegil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2006, 12:34 PM   #6
Laleena
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: in Mirkwood riding my horse
Posts: 27
Laleena has just left Hobbiton.
Leaf

Glorfindel, I read somewhere, was reincarnated. He died in the wars of Gondolin.
So he must be older than the wars of Gondolin. (don't ask me to do the math, I'm not good at it )
__________________
Sarcasm isn't the lowest form of wit, it isn't wit at all.~ Halt
Laleena is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2006, 12:57 PM   #7
Laleena
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: in Mirkwood riding my horse
Posts: 27
Laleena has just left Hobbiton.
Leaf

Hang on let me go prod my best friend, she knows
__________________
Sarcasm isn't the lowest form of wit, it isn't wit at all.~ Halt
Laleena is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2006, 12:59 PM   #8
Legolasfan1
Pile O'Bones
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: in Rivendell riding on my horse and shooting arrows
Posts: 11
Legolasfan1 has just left Hobbiton.
Leaf

okay im here (stop prodding it hurts ) I just signed up,which im sure you can see.

Hey, Leena, I don't know exactly how old Glorfindel is. I know just about as much as you.
Legolasfan1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2006, 01:42 PM   #9
Macalaure
Fading Fëanorion
 
Macalaure's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: into the flood again
Posts: 2,947
Macalaure is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Macalaure is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Macalaure is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
I think all we know is that Glorfindel took part in the rebellion of the Noldor, and so must have been alive at least some time before the First Age.

And I have to say I always imagined Goldberry to be of the same age as Bombadil. Or maybe insignificantly younger, so that Tom can still be oldest.
Macalaure is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2006, 05:53 PM   #10
Legolasfan1
Pile O'Bones
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: in Rivendell riding on my horse and shooting arrows
Posts: 11
Legolasfan1 has just left Hobbiton.
Tolkien

Quote:
Originally Posted by Macalaure
And I have to say I always imagined Goldberry to be of the same age as Bombadil. Or maybe insignificantly younger, so that Tom can still be oldest.
i haven't read the Silmarillion or Lost Tales in a long time, so for now, I agree with you. (Do you count Ents?)
__________________
I'm having a rotten day, my supply of chocolate just ran out!
Legolasfan1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2006, 02:09 PM   #11
Rumil
Sage & Onions
 
Rumil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Britain
Posts: 894
Rumil has been trapped in the Barrow!
Eye

If we're allowed Maiar, it must be Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast and Sauron?
__________________
Rumil of Coedhirion
Rumil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2006, 01:59 AM   #12
Estelyn Telcontar
Princess of Skwerlz
 
Estelyn Telcontar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,645
Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!
Bęthberry brings up a highly interesting point with Goldberry's age - and that of her mother, the River-woman. A mother must be older than her daughter, though she would still be younger than Bombadil if it's true that he's oldest, in whatever sense that term may be used. But we can only speculate - not that this has ever stopped us from interesting discussions!
__________________
'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'
Estelyn Telcontar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2006, 04:46 PM   #13
Legolasfan1
Pile O'Bones
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: in Rivendell riding on my horse and shooting arrows
Posts: 11
Legolasfan1 has just left Hobbiton.
Tolkien

I was thinking one of the ents would be oldest, but of course, I failed to see Oldest Person in Middle Earth
__________________
I'm having a rotten day, my supply of chocolate just ran out!
Legolasfan1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2006, 04:22 PM   #14
Laleena
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: in Mirkwood riding my horse
Posts: 27
Laleena has just left Hobbiton.
tut tut tut child, Reading is how you learn
__________________
Sarcasm isn't the lowest form of wit, it isn't wit at all.~ Halt
Laleena is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2006, 12:20 AM   #15
Gil-Galad
Psyche of Prince Immortal
 
Gil-Galad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Above a Parapet Obvious exits are: North, South, and Dennis
Posts: 5,054
Gil-Galad has been trapped in the Barrow!
Send a message via MSN to Gil-Galad
Glorfindel lived in the first age, died while fighting a Balrog during the refugees escape from the sacking of Gondolin, Glorfindel was then sent back to M-E after the Second Age where he lives in the house of Elrond.


out of the elves i would have to agree with saying that Cirdan would be the eldest named elf.
__________________
Love doesn't blow up and get killed.
Gil-Galad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2006, 10:18 AM   #16
Boromir88
Laconic Loreman
 
Boromir88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 7,559
Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.
Send a message via AIM to Boromir88 Send a message via MSN to Boromir88
Of the Elves it would certainly be Cirdan whose people were the first mariners in Middle-earth and Cirdan would be the last elf to leave. It's speculated that Cirdan was one of the original Elves that awoke at Cuivienen, though that's not know for certain.
__________________
Fenris Penguin
Boromir88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2006, 05:08 AM   #17
Raynor
Eagle of the Star
 
Raynor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
Raynor has just left Hobbiton.
I don't think that he was a first born elf. He is said to be a kinsman of Thingol (who , having a brother, means he is not a firstborn either), he is lower in rank than he, and apparently he has no wife (all 72 first elves had wives).
Raynor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2006, 07:44 AM   #18
lathspell
Regenerating Ringkeeper
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Holland
Posts: 757
lathspell has just left Hobbiton.
A few notices.

The oldest elf is indeed Cirdan the Shipwright. He was among those few Elves that lived in Darkness before they were brought to Valinor by Oromë. I don't know wether he was a first-born elf, but he was definitely among them when their great journey began.

Oldest person is quite another thing. Huge threads have been given to this matter. Personally I'm inclined to think Bombadil is indeed oldest. I have a few reasons:
1. Goldberry says so in LotR: 'Eldest, that's what he is!' This assumes that he was older than her (I always thought of Bombadil's finding Goldberry near the river was a kind of metaphor for her birthing, so that would be another reason). Since she said it, and I think it safe to presume that she knows her mother's age, it would be safe to assume that he is older.
Than there is the point were speculation comes in. We don't know anything about Goldberry's mother. For all we know she disappeared or died. Calculations are not possible without further information on her part.

2. Tom Bombadil must be older than Treebeard, him being the Eldest Ent. In the Silmarillion Manwë says to Yavanna: 'When the thoughts of Iluvatar come alive, so also will the thoughts of Yavanna!' This after the Great Song and the Valar coming into Arda. Bombadil claims to have been her ever since the Great Dark Lord came from Outside when the world was ever dark. Bombadil saw the Valar come, therefore he was oldest.

Hoping this topic will never burn out,
greetings,
lathspell
__________________
'You?' cried Frodo.
'Yes, I, Gandalf the Grey,' said the wizard solemnly. 'There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.'
lathspell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2006, 11:22 AM   #19
Boromir88
Laconic Loreman
 
Boromir88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 7,559
Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.
Send a message via AIM to Boromir88 Send a message via MSN to Boromir88
lathspell, nice post I'd like to point out the differences between Treebeard being referred to as the Eldest, and Tom B. being referred to as such.

Quote:
Eldest was the courtesy title of Treebeard as the oldest surviving Ent. The Ents claimed to be the oldest 'speaking people' after the Elves {illegible} until taught the art of speech by the Elves...They were therefore placed after the dwarves in the Old List...since Dwarves had the power of speech from their awaking.~Lord of the Rings Companion, Letter dated 1968
While I think Bombadil being called the 'Eldest' means slightly different (as in he truly is the oldest person on Middle-earth), as he is also referred to as 'fatherless.'
__________________
Fenris Penguin

Last edited by Boromir88; 11-10-2006 at 01:38 PM.
Boromir88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2006, 10:28 AM   #20
yavanna II
Registered User
 
yavanna II's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: in my own little world
Posts: 142
yavanna II has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mormegil
I think it is Cirdan the Shipwight.
I can't quote, since I don't have a book (it's probably just under my bed or something), but Cirdan has a beard and has very long and white(?) hair. And for Elves to have beards they have to be thousands of years old, right?
yavanna II is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2006, 10:46 AM   #21
Boromir88
Laconic Loreman
 
Boromir88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 7,559
Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.
Send a message via AIM to Boromir88 Send a message via MSN to Boromir88
Yep, Yavanna, Cirdan does have a beard:
Quote:
'Very tall he was, and his beard was long, and he was grey and old, save that his eyes were keen as stars...'~The Grey Havens
Those elves that entered into the third (which I believe is the last) life cycle had beards. This would mean that the eldest of the Eldar had beards. On Middle-earth (of the Elves we are told about), I honestly think it's pretty clear Cirdan was the oldest. As Cirdan was one of the first elves to arrive in Middle-earth and he would be the last one to leave:
Quote:
Some he [Osse] persuaded to remain; and those were the Falathrim, of Brithombar and Eglarest, the first mariners in Middle-earth and the first makers of ships. Cirdan the Shipwright was their lord.~Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalie
Quote:
'But as for me, my heart is with the Sea, and I will dwell by my grey shores until the last ship sails.'~Appendix B: Tale of Years
__________________
Fenris Penguin
Boromir88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2006, 12:00 PM   #22
Mithalwen
Pilgrim Soul
 
Mithalwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,916
Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Just because a Mrs Cirdan isn't mentioned doesn't mean she definitely didn't exist though. Mrs Thranduil isn't mentioned but she must have existed. Since Tolkien says that marriage early in life was the norm for elves, there celarly wasn't the imbalance in the genders as occurred with dwarves - though if you look at the extant elvish geanealogies you would think that the gender imbalance was even greater among elves than the dwarves ..... alas for the unwritten history of women ....

As for kinship - the Valar were unborn yet were still regarded as having siblings who were coeval in spirit. It is not impossible that a similar attitude was taken with the first elves...
__________________
“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”

Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace
Mithalwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2006, 12:52 PM   #23
Bęthberry
Cryptic Aura
 
Bęthberry's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,159
Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Just as Yavanna and Manwe had a special relationship separate from Yavanna's relationship with Aule, perhaps Mrs. Cirdan and Celeborn had one also, which would explain her absence from The Grey Havens at the fateful time of the famous departure. I don't think there's any question, though, that a Mrs. Cirdan sported a beard.

Frankly, I sometimes wonder if those blue wizards who went east weren't clothed in female robes. Another reason why their story is untold.
__________________
I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.
Bęthberry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2006, 01:33 PM   #24
Boromir88
Laconic Loreman
 
Boromir88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 7,559
Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.
Send a message via AIM to Boromir88 Send a message via MSN to Boromir88
White Tree

Oi, but Bethberry, the Blue Wizards story is told a bit more extensively and Tolkien seems to believe they had played a bit importance in limitting the numbers of Sauron's armies. I think we have more on the Blue Wizards than we do on Radagast. So if any wizard dressed in female clothes, it would be him.
__________________
Fenris Penguin
Boromir88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2006, 02:51 PM   #25
Bęthberry
Cryptic Aura
 
Bęthberry's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,159
Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Oh but Boromir, it isn't surprising that a man of Tolkien's tastes and values would be so circumspect and discrete about what likely were his Mata Hari characters.
__________________
I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.
Bęthberry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2006, 03:16 PM   #26
Mithalwen
Pilgrim Soul
 
Mithalwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,916
Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Ah but you are forgetting the discarded draft involving the sixth wizard Khaminmirrandir who was more exotically garbed.....
__________________
“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”

Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace
Mithalwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2006, 02:19 PM   #27
The Might
Guard of the Citadel
 
The Might's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxon
Posts: 2,287
The Might is a guest at the Prancing Pony.The Might is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
I personally believe the oldest Elf is Ingwe, King of all Elves, that still dwells in Aman
It is not clear if he is still alive at the end of the Third Age, but neither is his death mentioned, and it is very possible that he is the eldest.
he is known to have awoken at Cuivienen
Ingwe has the most chances to be considered the eldest, as his name means "the first one".
on the other hand, this name could also have this meaning in reference to his exalted position as High King of all the Elves.
__________________
“The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.”
Delos B. McKown
The Might is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2006, 02:34 PM   #28
Raynor
Eagle of the Star
 
Raynor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
Raynor has just left Hobbiton.
In an early variant of the story, Ingwe is indeed given the title of the first elf:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Of the valian tongues and its descendants, HoME V
On the march to the West the Lindar went first, and the chief house among them was the house of Ingwe, high-king of the Eldalie, and the oldest of all Elves, for he first awoke.
...although later the name of the first elf is given as Imin - in the legend of the awakening of the elves, Quendi and Eldar, HoME XI.
__________________
"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free."
Raynor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2006, 05:49 AM   #29
Legate of Amon Lanc
A Voice That Gainsayeth
 
Legate of Amon Lanc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,606
Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.
Tolkien

Well the thing is, are we telling the oldest person in Middle-Earth (meaning: not Aman) or oldest person in Middle-Earth (actually meaning Eä, or the world of Tolkien as such)?

As for the first, I stand for Tom. Maybe even for the second (if you don't consider Maiar persons. And, of course, if you don't consider old TB being Maia Do Balrogs have wings?)
__________________
"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories
Legate of Amon Lanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2006, 07:32 AM   #30
The Might
Guard of the Citadel
 
The Might's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxon
Posts: 2,287
The Might is a guest at the Prancing Pony.The Might is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
well I saw the opening post asking about Elves, and in this case it would be Ingwe
however, if we are talking about other races as well, I also agree that TB is the oldest
__________________
“The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.”
Delos B. McKown
The Might is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2006, 09:32 AM   #31
Legate of Amon Lanc
A Voice That Gainsayeth
 
Legate of Amon Lanc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,606
Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Might
well I saw the opening post asking about Elves, and in this case it would be Ingwe
Oh yeah, then Círdan, because Ingwë was not in Middle-Earth (see above).
__________________
"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories
Legate of Amon Lanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2006, 11:07 AM   #32
Valier
Twisted Taleswapper
 
Valier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: somewhere between sanity and insanity
Posts: 1,737
Valier is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
If we are not specifically talking about the oldest Elf, would not one of the Dwarves that Aule made be the oldest? He did make them before the coming of the Elves.
__________________
grand return?........
Valier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2006, 11:41 AM   #33
The Might
Guard of the Citadel
 
The Might's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxon
Posts: 2,287
The Might is a guest at the Prancing Pony.The Might is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Silmaril

however, at the end of the Third Age this dwarf would be long gone...
theoretically one could debate if Durin VII and Last wasn't the oldest...however as mentioned in LOTR the name of Durin was given to a Dwarf if he resembled his famous ancestor a great deal and was believed to be a reincarnation of Durin. But even if this were so, considering he had already died 6 times before makes me not a valid candidate for the title...
__________________
“The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.”
Delos B. McKown
The Might is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2007, 03:49 PM   #34
Boromir_bg
Pile O'Bones
 
Boromir_bg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 16
Boromir_bg has just left Hobbiton.
I'd say that it's the spider...
__________________
The Pride of Gondor!
Boromir_bg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2007, 05:45 PM   #35
The Might
Guard of the Citadel
 
The Might's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxon
Posts: 2,287
The Might is a guest at the Prancing Pony.The Might is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
This can't be, Shelob was not that old.

The earliest definite date we have for Shelob is 1000 SA because we know that she occupied Cirith Ungol 'before the first stone of Barad-dur which was laid at about that timeWe also know, from the same source, that she originally came there 'flying from ruin' - which probably hints that she had fled from the ruin of Beleriand after the War of Wrath, where she probably lived in Ered Gorgoroth before

Now since Ungoliant gave birth to Shelob and her many brothers and sisters after she had crossed the Helcaraxe with Melkor, it is pretty clear that Shelob would not be older then the Elves that awoke at Cuivienen or then some of the Ents, or ultimately then Tom Bombadil.
__________________
“The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.”
Delos B. McKown
The Might is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2007, 01:17 AM   #36
Boromir_bg
Pile O'Bones
 
Boromir_bg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 16
Boromir_bg has just left Hobbiton.
Okay,I must admit,that cancels my theory about her.Then who?Tom? lol
__________________
The Pride of Gondor!
Boromir_bg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2007, 05:34 AM   #37
Amras Oronar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Zoetermeer
Posts: 29
Amras Oronar has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via MSN to Amras Oronar
I'd agree with you on TB, but isn't he perhaps a Maiar? To be honest I havn't red much about TB but from what I have red about him he might very well be a Maiar...

The oldest elf walking arround was defintly Cirdan...
Amras Oronar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2007, 07:56 AM   #38
Boromir88
Laconic Loreman
 
Boromir88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 7,559
Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.
Send a message via AIM to Boromir88 Send a message via MSN to Boromir88
Amras to put it in the words of Goldberry...'He is.' Which means he simply just is. As Tolkien wrote in an unpublished Letter in 1968 (and appears in Hammond and Skulls Lord of the Ring's Companion:
Quote:
'I do not know his origin though I might make guesses. He is best left as he is, a mystery. There are many mysteries in any closed/organized system of history/mythology.'
Ok, so Tolkien leaves Tom B. as an enigma to us all (as I doubt he really knew 'who Tom B. was', but I highly doubt that Tom Bombadil is any character/creature/person that comes from Tolkien's Middle-earth. Because:

Tolkien creates Tom completely from a whole different story seperated from Middle-earth...not the stories he created about the History of Middle-earth. Tom B was conceived long before Tolkien got to work on LOTR or The Silmarillion. He first appears in a story about King Bonhedig, and then later on in the 1930's, Tom Bombadil is in a poem Tolkien wrote where he's traveling down a river in England.

In a Letter to Christopher Fettes in 1961:
Quote:
"So Bombadil is 'fatherless' , he has no historical origin in the world desribed in The Lord of the Rings."
So even though Tom B. is in a story about Middle-earth, he is not of Middle-earth. His origin, he who is does not come from the world Tolkien created in the Lord of the Ring's. Therefor, I doubt he is a Maiar. He is a character that Tolkien wrote small pieces about in stories 'outside' the history of Middle-earth and Tolkien decided to put him into a small part in Lord of the Rings. That doesn't mean Tom B. is of Middle-earth however, that just means he was put into Middle-earth.

Again, Goldberry says it best about Tom...'He is.'
__________________
Fenris Penguin
Boromir88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2007, 08:14 AM   #39
Amras Oronar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Zoetermeer
Posts: 29
Amras Oronar has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via MSN to Amras Oronar
aye, if I knew that I wouldn't have thought of calling him as Maiar Well thanks a lot for explaining he origen from Tom Bombadil for ever since I red lotr for the first time I have been wondering what he is and where he came from, thanks a lot for an awnser
Amras Oronar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2007, 10:06 AM   #40
Bęthberry
Cryptic Aura
 
Bęthberry's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,159
Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Tolkien cobwebs

Mention of Goldberry once again brings up the question of her mother, although as Boro88 points out, the orginal sequence of Bombadil verse was not part of LotR. Still, we have no birth date for either Tom or Goldberry. Usually one assumes the woman is younger than the man, but this is not always the case. Yet the River Woman must be older than her daughter.

Speaking of spiders, Ungoliant clearly is ancient, older even than the maiar, it might appear, from her early descriptions in The Silm, yet she is outside Eru's creation, from the Void, and so I suppose does not qualify for this thread. Still, it is interesting to speculate what else might be out there in the Void or what the relationship is between The Void and Eä.
__________________
I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.
Bęthberry is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:31 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.