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Old 06-03-2002, 04:57 PM   #1
Maédhros
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Sting Turgon's Folly

Why did Turgon became proud and refused the aid of Ulmo?
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Then Turgon pondered long the counsel of Ulmo, and there came into his mind the words that were spoken to him in Vinyamar: 'Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea.' But Turgon was become proud, and Gondolin as beautiful as a memory of Elven Tirion, and he trusted still in its secret and impregnable strength, though even a Vala should gainsay it
Was it because he was loath to abandon anything he had set his mind to do?
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Moreover Fingon and Turgon were bold and fiery of heart, and loath to abandon any task to which they had put their hands until the bitter end, if bitter it must be.
Why is it that he trusted Turgon in the beginning and not in the end?
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It has been told how by the guidance of Ulmo Turgon of Nevrast discovered the hidden vale of Tumladen; and that (as was after known) lay east of the upper waters of Sirion, in a ring of mountains tall and sheer, and no living thing came there save the eagles of Thorondor. But there was a deep way under the mountains delved in the darkness of the world by waters that flowed out to join the streams of Sirion; and this way Turgon found, and so came to the green plain amid the mountains, and saw the island-hill that stood there of hard smooth stone; for the vale had been a great lake in ancient days. Then Turgon knew that he had found the place of his desire, and he resolved to build there a fair city, a memorial of Tirion upon Túna; but he returned to Nevrast, and remained there in peace, though he pondered ever in his thought how he should accomplish his design.
What happened to him?
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Old 06-03-2002, 05:38 PM   #2
Kuruharan
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Why did Turgon became proud and refused the aid of Ulmo?
He loved too well the works of his hands and the devices of his heart. He also misplaced his trust in the secrecy of his stronghold, even though Ulmo, who would know better than he, warned him not to.

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Was it because he was loath to abandon anything he had set his mind to do?
It was probably more a matter of not wanting to abandon all the neat stuff he had built, combined with not wanting to give up his kingdom.

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Why is it that he trusted Turgon in the beginning and not in the end?
I'm not sure I understand who you mean. If you mean Ulmo, I would say that it might not have been a matter of trust in the first place. Ulmo was trying to give Turgon good advice so that he would be able to endure through the Morgoth Wars and survive at the end.

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What happened to him?
He either died fighting in front of his tower, or died when the tower collapsed on him. One of the two, can't remember which.
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Old 06-04-2002, 06:53 AM   #3
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Had Ulmo not trusted Turgon early on, the fate of Middle-earth could have been much worse. Although Turgon eventually forsook the counsel of Ulmo, he did manage to stay hidden long enough for Earendil the mariner to be born. So Ulmo's trust was not completely misguided. He knew in his wisdom that the Hope of the Edain and Atani would come from Turgon's hidden city. How much he knew, well...
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Old 06-04-2002, 09:57 AM   #4
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I'll consider the other interpretation of Maedhros' question, that he meant to ask why Turgon trusted Ulmo in the beginning, when he was guided to that hidden lake bed, but not at the end, when he was warned that the fortress city would eventually be breached.

What happened in between? Turgon became a founder, a builder, and a creator. He was Noldor, and the act of building his beautiful Gondolin awoke the fire of Feanor in his heart. He made the same mistake of placing his own sub-creation, glorious as it was, over all else, including the love he knew Ulmo bore him and his, and the utmost wellbeing of his people and kin. He risked them for a city, for architecture. He was honestly mistaken about the best course and the soundness of Ulmo's intelligence, but he also weighed the value of his city too heavily when he should have thought only of his people within it.

However, Turgon's mistake was much less serious than Feanor's and his sons'. It certainly led to a fatal error in his strategy for the defense of his people, but I don't think it rose to Feanor's level, selfishly denying the possibility that others also loved THEIR creations with a love as true as his own, including Eru and Arda, but also other sub-creators such as the Teleri with their white ships and Yavenna with the possibility of her healing the two trees.

Turgon's was an ironic choice because remaining in Gondolin was to all appearences the prudent, cautious conservative thing to do, but given Ulmo's advice, it was deeply reckless. I have a lot of sympathy for Turgon's mistaken strategy, though-- he was facing Morgoth and all his horrible army, who wouldn't want to hide in the safe, good place they had found and made so beautiful. I wonder if Tolkien was thinking of the French generals' disasterous reliance on the supremely well fortified Maginot Line in WWI when he devised Turgon's strategy, which was so prudently reckless.
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Old 06-04-2002, 01:06 PM   #5
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What happened in between? Turgon became a founder, a builder, and a creator. He was Noldor, and the act of building his beautiful Gondolin awoke the fire of Feanor in his heart. He made the same mistake of placing his own sub-creation, glorious as it was, over all else, including the love he knew Ulmo bore him and his, and the utmost wellbeing of his people and kin. He risked them for a city, for architecture. He was honestly mistaken about the best course and the soundness of Ulmo's intelligence, but he also weighed the value of his city too heavily when he should have thought only of his people within it.
Truly, this is the kind of answer I was looking for. Great answer.
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However, Turgon's mistake was much less serious than Feanor's and his sons'. It certainly led to a fatal error in his strategy for the defense of his people, but I don't think it rose to Feanor's level, selfishly denying the possibility that others also loved THEIR creations with a love as true as his own, including Eru and Arda, but also other sub-creators such as the Teleri with their white ships and Yavenna with the possibility of her healing the two trees.
I agree, but Feanor was a unique elf in the way that his works could rival those of the Valar themselves.
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For Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and a bright flame was in him. The works of wonder for the glory of Arda that he might otherwise have wrought only Manwë might in some measure conceive.
I would say the mistake was Feanors and not of his sons. They didn't create anything like their father. They were just following him.
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