Gandalf

[JenFramp]

Ok..I'm quite familar with Tolkien...but could someone clear up what exactly happened with Gandalf? I realize he fell into the chasm..so..did he really die? did he raise from the dead? Or did he not die at all? Who raised him then? How on earth did he get out?

[Rimbaud]

Gandalf was one of the Maia and therefore immortal.

He was in Middle-earth c. III 1000 to 29 September III 3021. (E. of A.)

The battle with the Balrog continued for a long time until Gandalf finally threw it from the peak of the Mountain. He expired shortly after, his body found by Gwaihir. His spirit had returned to the West. However he was not finished in M-E and was sent back by the Valar. He finally left M-E around III 3021.

There's the shortest easiest version of that story you'll ever hear.

I would recommend however, reading the books, including the Sil and HoME to gain a full appreciation of the events.

[ May 02, 2002: Message edited by: Stephanos ]

[Lomelinde]

Definitely try reading the HoME and the Unfinished Tales for more information on Gandalf in general. As for what happened, I think that story is actually in The Two Towers itself; Gandalf tells the Fellowship what happened to him after he fell. Of course, I could be wrong, so research around.

[lathspell]

Yes, he tells the tale in TTT, but he doesn't want to tell them what happened to him after the threw down the Balrog. He only says something like: 'I was walking on fields far and distant.'

Well, after the Balrog was thrown of Gandalf also 'died' and he had to forsake his body. Quite likely it were the Ainur who send him back. The reason is quite obvious: he wasn't ready to come yet for Sauron was still active in ME. The Istari were send to aid the elves and the mortals against Sauron, and afterwards they could depart again. So Gandalf wasn't finished yet and he was send back.

So, yes, he did die and he was send back.

[Tarthang]

In TTT Gandalf says (in short) that he wandered in darkness before he was called to the west & then sent back.

[Baran]

How come Gandalf was mightier when he came back as Gandalf The White?

[Halfir]

Jen Framp and Baran: here is how I would answer your questions regarding Gandalf's 'death' and his revivification as the more powerful Gandalf the White.

1. Gandalf, along with other Istari was sent by the Valar to aid ME in its struggle against Sauron.

2. Galadriel had wanted Gandalf, rather than Saruman to head the White Counsel that debated how to oppose the Dark Lord, but Saruman was deemed to be the more senior wizard, even though at that time his thoughts were turning towards using the One for himself.

3. Gandalf was the guide and counselor of the Fellowship, and a member of the quest. In epic tradition quest heros have to pass certain tests to achieve their ultimate goal.

4. Gandalf was the Enemy of Sauron (his description) and to attain power enough to combat the Dark Lord and his powerful minions he had to overcome certain obstacles, and in so doing, be spiritually reborn.

5. The fight with the Balrog - in which Gandalf defeats his foe, is a rite of passage - a test that Gandalf has to undergo before he can be spiritually transfornmed into a more powerful spiritual being - hence the actual and symbolic color change from Grey to White - the White that Saruman once was and should have been. (Note that in his transformed state Gandalf has the power to cast Saruman from the Istari Order, whereas as Gandalf the Grey he had been Saruman's prisoner in Orthanc).

6. In his fight with the Balrog - one of the most powerful entities of Morgoth's world, Gandalf reaches the limits of his current spiritual powers and being. The fight spiritually and physically drains him and as he puts it:"Then the darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time...Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done...I was alone, forgotten...at the last Gwaihir the Windlord found me."

7.The battle with the Balrog ended Gandalf's first role in ME and with that came an end to his old physical form. He was sent back, many say by the Valar, but I personally believe by Iluvatar, until he had completed his task in helping defeat Sauron. Gwaihir found him when he had been returned and was lying helpless, not when he was 'dead' as another post says.

8. In his new form, White rather than Grey, he has enhanced spiritual powers to combat Sauron - but even these - on their own - are not enough; he still needs the Fellowship, and the events they cause to happen. to battle the Enemy because, as he says :"I am Gandalf, Gandalf the White, but Black is mightier still."

[lathspell]

An interesting post, but I do not agree on a few points. Starting with point 2:

but Saruman was deemed to be the more senior wizard, even though at that time his thoughts were turning towards using the One for himself.

In the Silmarillion it is told that Saruman's thoughts of wielding the One himself began when he began to study the lore of the Elven-rings and especially the Rings of Power. The White Council was made before he went to study this item so it can't be that Saruman, when the White Council was made, was already hungering for the One.

Gandalf was the Enemy of Sauron (his description) and to attain power enough to combat the Dark Lord and his powerful minions he had to overcome certain obstacles, and in so doing, be spiritually reborn.

5. The fight with the Balrog - in which Gandalf defeats his foe, is a rite of passage - a test that Gandalf has to undergo before he can be spiritually transfornmed into a more powerful spiritual being

In my opinion you are trying to say that Gandalf was meant to fight with the Balrog. I do not believe such a thing (although I can't think of a reason why Pippin was so much attracted to the well in which he dropped the stone).

He was sent back, many say by the Valar, but I personally believe by Iluvatar

Iluvatar didn't busy himself with the needs of Arda, except if the Valar asked them and there was great need (i.e.: the drowning of Numernorë). Besides this, the Valar had done things like this (sending people back) before:
- Beren and Luthien
- Glorfindel
in the story of Beren and Luthien it's told that Luthien moved the Valar to pity and she got to choose, but either way it were the Valar who would send them back or let them live in Valinor. Iluvatar doesn't come in the story.
So it seems quite obvious that the Valar did the same with Gandalf, they send him back until his needs were fulfilled. To achieve this quest he was given greater powers than before (or it might be so that he had grown in his death to one with greater power).


greetings,
lathspell

[Voronwe]

Actually, Tolkien states (in Letter 156) that Gandalf was sent back not by the Valar, but by Eru Iluvatar:

He [i.e Gandalf] was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'.

It's an interesting letter, and contains some very interesting information about Gandalf's return from death and his purpose in Middle Earth.

[ May 04, 2002: Message edited by: Voronwe ]

[Halfir]

Lathspell: Thank you for such a detailed response to my comments. He ie either a brave man or a fool who crosses swords with Gandalf himself - and I am not sure into which category I fall! However, here is my response.

1. I accept that my refernce to Saruman turning towards using the One for himself at the White Council is historically incorrect. I was trying to emphasize Saruman's deviousness was discernible even at the White Council stage, Galadriel was clearly concerned about him:"I it was who first summoned the White Council. And if my designs had not gone amiss, it would have been governed by Gandalf the Grey, and then mayhap things would have gone otherwise."
However, I should have been more precise and I accept your correction. The fact of Saruman's deviousness even at that time, however, I feel still remains.

2. You are incorrect in your assumption that I am saying that Gandalf wasmeantto fight the Balrog. My point was that Gandalf the Grey had to become Gandalf the White in order to acquire powers necessary for the final battles with the Dark Lord and his forces. Gandalf the Grey would not have been able to do so.

Moreover, in the quest tradition, the heros are tested and undergo 'rites of passage' in order to be purified and acquire enhanced powers.

The rite of passage for Gandalf the Grey is the fight with the Balrog. It could have been something else - but what was necesary was a transformingencounter.

As to why Pippin was attracted to the well, like you, I have no answers, save to say that chance and Gandalf have a strong affinity in LOTR.

3. You disagree with my ILuvatar point and say that the Valar sent Gandalf back, as they had Beren and Luthien and Glorfindel. You also say that Iluvatar would only intervene at a point of major crisis and you cite the drowning of Numenor.

Let's just view the situation at the point of Gandalf's 'death'. The Valar's plan to use the Istari to help ME aginst Sauron is in total disarray. Gandalf is 'dead'; Radgast has become obsessed with animals and birds rather than people; Saruman has been corrupted by his desire for the Ring; and the Blue Wizards have disappeared into the East possibly to found cults. Sauron is left supreme.Surley, a point at which a major intervention is called for by the creator himself!

Moreover, support for the theory that it is Iluvatar who intervenes comes from Tolkien himself. In letter #156 he writes:"Gandalf really 'died' and was changed; for that seems to me the only cheating, to represent anything that can be called 'death' as making no differnce...He was part of a more prudent plan of the angelic Valar, or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it at the moment of its failure."

The plan has failed - the plan of the Valar. Authority takes it up and enlarges it, because not to do do would surrender ME to Sauron. Authority can only mean one thing - Iluvatar.

[Tarthang]

Somewhat off thread, but to answer why was Pippin drawn to the well? I would say partly because it was in his character to do so. At this point in LOTR Pippin had yet to grow into a sense of Duty or maturity and throughout the story it was in his nature to do things of a rash nature, such as dropping a rock down a well (like many a child would). Or even his Pledge of Servitude to the Tower Gaurd of Minas Tirith, where I believe he grew into a sense of Duty and left childhood behind. Anyway he was the youngest member of the Fellowship.
And yet another reason for his being drawn to the well and his subsequent action helped provide Tolkien with a way to roll out the Balrog scenario at the bridge (besides Gandalf's use of Power attempting to open the West Gate).

[The Silver-shod Muse]

Still, you must admit that so-called "chance" plays a huge part in LotR. Take Boromir's death for example. In a way you could say that if Boromir hadn't died, the Ents would not have have attacked (and decimated) Isengard.

I know I'm playing with fire when I refer to the book without a sure quote, but I believe Elrond made some ambiguous reference to the "spiritual" (for lack of a more appropriate word) battle that the protagonistic spirits would be fighting while the Fellowship was going forward in the body. Would that have something to do with the council of Elrond not sending Glorfindel along with the Fellowship?
Perhaps the really powerful elves could exert a force that nudged things in the right direction, like when Frodo was battling against Sauron on the seat of seeing and Gandalf's voice (or spirit?) aided him when he was falling under Sauron's control.

Whoa, I got way off topic there. Sorry, but it seemed an interesting line of thought. My apologies for not using the correct terms for everything. I'm just starting the Sil and am quite ignorant as Tolkienists go. (Tolkienists hehe...) [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ May 04, 2002: Message edited by: The Silver-shod Muse ]

[Belin]

This is STILL a slightly off-topic part of the thread, but maybe I can bring it back around. I have a theory of Pippin's actions....

Pippin dropped the stone in the well because he wanted to see how deep it was. Remember, he'd been wandering around with the Fellowship, only half understanding what was going on and frequently being told what an idiot he was. Of course, he didn't like this any better than any of us would, so I think he dropped the stone in the well because he wanted to carry out some explorations of his own, thereby proving, at least to himself, that he was capable of figuring SOMETHING out anyway.

But of course, it led to at least temporary tragedy. It might be possible to link this up to the frequent theme in Tolkien about the evils of setting up one's own authority as opposed to that of those who know more and see more clearly. This seems a bit harsh of a theme to apply to poor Pippin, but of course he is mostly innocent so he is forgiven.

--Belin Ibaimendi

[Amarinth]

yes, gandalf was sent back by illuvatar himself, as voronwe quotes. i'm going on a stretch here and hypothesize that only illuvatar anyway could have summoned gandalf/olorin from "wandering in the dark", the unprecedented(?) death of a maia incarnate.

by the same token, halfir does have a point in stating that gandalf needed to undergo some "transformation" or the archetypal "rite of passage". the five maia having been shorn of a greater part of their power when invested as the istari have transformed to some finite form of incarnation, and expectedly with only a reincarnation of olorin "retaining" greater power and stature would he be able to supersede and subsequently overthrow curunir.

[Child of the 7th Age]

I wonder if it is Gandalf's power that has changed. Pehaps not. Perhaps it is merely the instructions that govern the use of that power.

Before his transformation, and this is also from Letter 156, Gandalf had been under the obligation to achieve change primarily by teaching and inspiring the inhabitants of Middle-earth. When Tolkien says this, I have a clear image in my head of Gandalf sitting beside Frodo and talking to him about Gollum and the need for mercy. But after Illuvatar sends him back as Gandalf the White, he has a new freedom to act and use his inherent Maia powers.

Tolkien states that, "where the physical powers of the Enemy are too great for the good will of the opposers to be effective", Gandalf can now "act in emergency as an 'angel'. He seldom does this. However, his rescues of Faramir and his willingness to forbid the entrance of the Lord of Nazgul to Minas Tirith after the gates have been broken are such examples (Even though in the latter situation, such a battle never occurs since human resistence carries the day.)
sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[lathspell]

Halfir - your point about Gandalf being send back by the One I now find quite correct. I had no knowledge of these quotes, so I assumed that (pointing out the Beren, Luthien and Glorfindel history) the Valar did this.
As for Gandalf having to transform is, I think, not true and I agree with Amarinth. It seems that the One saw the urge in this matter, as you point out yourself.

Interresting ideas about 'the drop of the stone', I haven't thought about it yet but I'll soon begin thinking about it.

greetings,
lathspell

P.S.: Halfir - I think I'll count you according to the brave men. You were right about quite a few points about the matter, so you can't be interpreted as 'foolish'. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Luineglin]

well this is a bit above me but last time i was here (long time guys real long time) i thought that there was doubt that the 2 Glorfindels were the same person perhaps u can point me in the right direction? I also agree strongly with the idea of the role of Gandalf changed not his power level. He is (if i remember correctly) described as a person with a greater hidden power in him. Maybe now he can reveal this power.

I thought I read some where that Saurumon was picked for the head of the order because they where to aid in the war of the ring and Saurumon was more knowledgable in the lore of the ring than Gandalf.
what I realy want to know is why Radegast was there he barely had ennything to do with the War Of THe Ring. maby he was picked because he was Gandalf's cousin.

[Luineglin]

actually one of the valar made sauraman take radagast with him. sauraman always disliked him and thought himself above him. he always was just a puppet to him as is shown when he sends him to get gandalf

[Heen-1]

well this topic is so long so i skipped a few of the replys. hehe

many people think gandalf couldn't have done it while he was "grey". i think he could have.

while he was blocking the door he said he was being combated by the strength of the balrog, and that made him extremeley weary. he even said that he fell backwords down the steps. that must have made the battle more difficult.

plus, tons of orcs were pursuing them, and he was also leading a company of people.

one thing most people dont think about though is that the spirits that came with the valar in the begining of days to middle earth often clothed themselves in bodies, and that made them weaker because they're spirit was being confined. i cant find the exact place but i know its something to that extent.

[Heen-1]

radagast isnt gandalfs cusin...and he was sent by i think yavannah, becuase in one essay tolkien says that each vala chose a istar like themeselves to be sent to middle earth.

[Tarthang]

Hee-1, correct. Gandalf and Radagast were not cousins. Although Gandalf did call Radagast his cousin (unless it was meant in a spiritual sense, where the term could be applied to all ainur, be they valar or maiar).