The Great Evils of the Third Age - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Nikkolas · 06-27-2014, 08:34 PM

Besides the Dark Lord Sauron, there was Smaug, Shelob and Durin's Bane. They were the last vestiges of the immense power of the First Age's darkness. Much has been talked about Sauron's relationship with the Balrog, as in if they even had one, but what of the other two? Sauron is noted to have cared very little for Shelob beyond her uses as a guard dog and she in turn didn't give a crap about any War of the Ring...she just ate. And Smaug was dead by the time the War started.

But had Sauron consciously tried to rally together these three great forces - for they would be nigh-unstoppable - could he have persuaded them to his side? Would any of them serve him in his war effort?

Inziladun · 06-27-2014, 09:05 PM

The common thread between those three evil powers besides Sauron was that they did not share his ambitions.
Sauron did not have the command presence Morgoth. The Balrog could be said to be a peer of Sauron, and it apparently had no interest in serving him.
Shelob's lack of concern for anything to do with the War of the Ring was well-described in the book. Her mother, Ungoliant, had worked with Morgoth, but not him. when her own desires were sated she went back to her own devices. Shelob was of the same mind.
Of the three, only Smaug would have been likely to do Sauron's bidding, and that was actually what Gandalf feared, causing him to aid Thorin and Company.
At any rate, by the time Sauron was strong enough to have put into motion any plans to enlist Smaug, Gandalf's plan to destroy him had come to fruition.

Belegorn · 06-27-2014, 09:55 PM

Working together with the Balrog might not be out of the question, but they are peers and I do not think Sauron would try and force his will onto the Balrog. I'm not quite sure but I think the Company called the Orcs in Moria, "Orcs of Sauron", so I do not know if this means they were somehow working together, or that these were just Orcs that happened to be there. He did try to get Saruman to follow him, although he had his own plans. So I think it is possible if he had a mind to he would get Durin's Bane to work for him.

Zigûr · 06-28-2014, 12:22 AM

"Why did the Balrog never leave Moria?" is an interesting question. Two possibilities come to mind.

1) It didn't want to - it was contented where it was.
2) It feared what lay outside - who knew what threats it might face if it made its existence too publicly known? Dwarves were one thing, Lords of the Eldar another.

I think its presence in Moria was very convenient for Sauron. All Orcs, directly or indirectly, served Sauron by the end of the Third Age, and given that the Balrog seemingly did not object to their presence it must have been logical to take advantage of the location.

I'd argue that Sauron may not have known for sure what Durin's Bane was, although it probably wasn't especially difficult to guess. But I don't think Sauron needed it. Smaug would have been useful - I think any arrangement there would still have been more of an alliance than Smaug directly serving Sauron - but evidently he was not necessary either. Really the only thing that mattered was recovering the One Ring so that he could dismantle the defences of Lórien and Rivendell. He presumably thought that everything else could be accomplished through sheer weight of military numbers.

Nikkolas · 07-04-2014, 11:40 PM

So diverting this thread off a bit I was reading the Balrog vs. Witch-king topic and wanted to discuss something. I am guilty of liking to debate "power levels" in Tolkien and one character I was quite fond of when I first read TTT was Shelob.

She was kinda lame in the movie but the book says:
[i]"But Shelob was not as dragons are, no softer spot had she save only her eyes. Knobbed and pitted with corruption was her age-old hide, but ever thickened from within with layer on layer of evil growth. The blade scored it with a dreadful gash, but those hideous folds could not be pierced by any strength of men, not though Elf or Dwarf should forge the steel or the hand of Beren or of Túrin wield it"

That is some incredibly high praise for her strength. Short of saying frickin' Hurin could not harm her, I can't think of how else it could have been framed more impressively. What's more she is the child of Ungoliant, the monstrosity that nearly consumed Melkor.

I just wondered, since it specifically mentions she is unlike dragons, how do people reckon her power compared to Smaug, the other "last of his kind" of the First Age?

06-27-2014, 08:34 PM	#1
Nikkolas Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 55	The Great Evils of the Third Age Besides the Dark Lord Sauron, there was Smaug, Shelob and Durin's Bane. They were the last vestiges of the immense power of the First Age's darkness. Much has been talked about Sauron's relationship with the Balrog, as in if they even had one, but what of the other two? Sauron is noted to have cared very little for Shelob beyond her uses as a guard dog and she in turn didn't give a crap about any War of the Ring...she just ate. And Smaug was dead by the time the War started. But had Sauron consciously tried to rally together these three great forces - for they would be nigh-unstoppable - could he have persuaded them to his side? Would any of them serve him in his war effort?

06-27-2014, 09:05 PM	#2
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,058	The common thread between those three evil powers besides Sauron was that they did not share his ambitions. Sauron did not have the command presence Morgoth. The Balrog could be said to be a peer of Sauron, and it apparently had no interest in serving him. Shelob's lack of concern for anything to do with the War of the Ring was well-described in the book. Her mother, Ungoliant, had worked with Morgoth, but not him. when her own desires were sated she went back to her own devices. Shelob was of the same mind. Of the three, only Smaug would have been likely to do Sauron's bidding, and that was actually what Gandalf feared, causing him to aid Thorin and Company. At any rate, by the time Sauron was strong enough to have put into motion any plans to enlist Smaug, Gandalf's plan to destroy him had come to fruition. __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

06-27-2014, 09:55 PM	#3
Belegorn Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Henneth Annûn, Ithilien Posts: 462	Working together with the Balrog might not be out of the question, but they are peers and I do not think Sauron would try and force his will onto the Balrog. I'm not quite sure but I think the Company called the Orcs in Moria, "Orcs of Sauron", so I do not know if this means they were somehow working together, or that these were just Orcs that happened to be there. He did try to get Saruman to follow him, although he had his own plans. So I think it is possible if he had a mind to he would get Durin's Bane to work for him. __________________ "For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche

06-28-2014, 12:22 AM	#4
Zigûr Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 785	"Why did the Balrog never leave Moria?" is an interesting question. Two possibilities come to mind. 1) It didn't want to - it was contented where it was. 2) It feared what lay outside - who knew what threats it might face if it made its existence too publicly known? Dwarves were one thing, Lords of the Eldar another. I think its presence in Moria was very convenient for Sauron. All Orcs, directly or indirectly, served Sauron by the end of the Third Age, and given that the Balrog seemingly did not object to their presence it must have been logical to take advantage of the location. I'd argue that Sauron may not have known for sure what Durin's Bane was, although it probably wasn't especially difficult to guess. But I don't think Sauron needed it. Smaug would have been useful - I think any arrangement there would still have been more of an alliance than Smaug directly serving Sauron - but evidently he was not necessary either. Really the only thing that mattered was recovering the One Ring so that he could dismantle the defences of Lórien and Rivendell. He presumably thought that everything else could be accomplished through sheer weight of military numbers. __________________ "Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir." "On foot?" cried Éomer.

07-04-2014, 11:40 PM	#5
Nikkolas Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 55	So diverting this thread off a bit I was reading the Balrog vs. Witch-king topic and wanted to discuss something. I am guilty of liking to debate "power levels" in Tolkien and one character I was quite fond of when I first read TTT was Shelob. She was kinda lame in the movie but the book says: [i]"But Shelob was not as dragons are, no softer spot had she save only her eyes. Knobbed and pitted with corruption was her age-old hide, but ever thickened from within with layer on layer of evil growth. The blade scored it with a dreadful gash, but those hideous folds could not be pierced by any strength of men, not though Elf or Dwarf should forge the steel or the hand of Beren or of Túrin wield it" That is some incredibly high praise for her strength. Short of saying frickin' Hurin could not harm her, I can't think of how else it could have been framed more impressively. What's more she is the child of Ungoliant, the monstrosity that nearly consumed Melkor. I just wondered, since it specifically mentions she is unlike dragons, how do people reckon her power compared to Smaug, the other "last of his kind" of the First Age?