Question of Fidelity - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Raefindel · 05-08-2002, 10:20 AM

I was wondering what happens in a case like Elrond's where one spouse has left Middle Earth for the Havens, Is the remaining spouse required to remain faithful to his marriage vows? Or is it treated like a death in that he may re-marry if he wishes?

stone of vision · 05-08-2002, 10:26 AM

OUAAAAH! Re-mary?!! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]
No way! I'm very "oldish" there but Fidelity fo ever that's so romantic! lol! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

burrahobbit · 05-08-2002, 11:22 AM

It isn't something that they are required to do, so much as it's something that they do anyway. Even when one dies they generally do not remarry. That only happened once.

Nufaciel · 05-08-2002, 02:44 PM

Ooh, very involved question:

The answer to this is best found in Morgoth's Ring and the Silmarillion. Someone else could probably answer this better than me (it's very involved, and I'm about to leave), but MR tells all about customs of the Elves, including marriage, remarriage, and rebirth. You should really check it out.

Raefindel · 05-08-2002, 03:16 PM

I see. I haven't gotten to that chapter yet. Thank You, Nufaciel and Burrahobbit. I'll look it up. (My daughter got hold of my Sil book and scribbled in it, so I'll hope that part isn't ruined).

Nufaciel · 05-09-2002, 02:37 PM

Let me know if you want some quotes from MR, and I can either post them here or send them to you.

Elven-Maiden · 05-09-2002, 06:39 PM

oooh! I'd like some quotes! please and thank you! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

I'm a good girl, I am, with no time to read. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

Raefindel · 05-09-2002, 08:38 PM

Thank you Nufaciel, What a sweet offer. That chapter seems to have come through the attack unharmed. But I appriciate the offer. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Kalimac · 05-09-2002, 08:51 PM

Without having read the background material (I'll give you fair warning on that) it seems like a rather medieval situation in a way, where if one spouse had decided to give his or her life to God and went into a monastery/convent, the other spouse could marry again since the other one was "dead to this world." It was unfortunate in a way since the convent proved to be a great place for kings with roving eyes to shove inconvenient first wives off to, but theoretically it made sense. Maybe the Elves were the same way? Though they don't seem to have been in any kind of hurry to get married once, let alone twice. Arwen was single for about 2,800 years and nobody seemed to think that was unusually long [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img].

Nufaciel · 05-10-2002, 11:20 AM

Well, there are too many quotes to put here, it would be a whole chapter, but let me give you some of my notes, with quotes interspersed. These are from Morgoth's Ring, and are accurate, I assure you. The page numbers are in parenthesis. (Hardback version)
These are from the section entitled: OF THE LAWS AND CUSTOMS AMONG THE ELDAR...

-Eldar married early, usually not long after age 50 (209)
-did not have many children: Fëanor held the record with seven. usually had four children or less (210)
-"Their families, or houses, were held together by love and a deep feeling for kinship in mind and body;...and the children needed little governing or teaching." (210)
-married only once, for love or by free will
-there are very few "deeds of lust among" the Eldar
-spirits of Eldar are in complete control of their bodies and "are seldom swayed by the desires of the body only, but are by nature continent and steadfast." (211)

TO MARRY
-may choose spouse early in life, even when they were still children (210)
-the parents of the children decide when they are to be married, unless the children were of an age to go ahead with marriage and wanted to be married very soon (210)
-when the engagement "was announced at a meeting of the two houses concerned" (210), the two to be married gave each other silver rings. the engagement lasted for a year or more. (210-211)
-at any time during the engagement the pair can call off the wedding by publicly returning the rings, which were then melted down so that they were never used again. breaking of engagement rare, vow to marry was never taken frivolously by the Eldar (211)
-after a year had passed, the engaged set the time for their wedding (211)
-at the time for the wedding, the houses of the two families got together for a feast to celebrate the marriage. (211)

"At the end of the feast the betrothed stood forth, and the mother of the bride and the father of the bridegroom joined the hands of the pair and bless them." (211)

"For this blessing there was a solemn form, but no mortal has heard it; though the Eldar say that Varda was named in witness by the mother and Manwë by the father; and moreover that the name of Eru was spoken (as was seldom done at any other time). (211)

-after the blessings were completed, the pair gave back the silver rings (to cherish forever) and exchanged gold rings that they wore on the right hand on the index finger. (211)

Nufaciel · 05-10-2002, 11:23 AM

-after the blessings were completed, the pair gave back the silver rings (to cherish forever) and exchanged gold rings that they wore on the right hand on the index finger. (211)
-the mother of the bride gives the bridegroom a gift: a jewel on a chain or collar. the father of the bridegroom gives the bride a similar gift. gifts usually given at feast, but sometimes before (example is Galadriel's gift to Aragorn) (211)
-the ceremony was not needed for the couple to marry, this was to join the two houses of the engaged, and allowed the parents to show their love for their children. (211-212); however, it was considered "ungracious and contemptuous to kin" not to have the ceremony during peaceful times, but marriage without ceremony was perfectly lawful. during "times of trouble, in flight and exile and wandering" there were many marriages that came without the ceremony. (212)

"It was the act of bodily union that achieved marriage, and after which the indissoluble bond was complete." (212)

These are about marriage. Let me get my quotes for the dissolving of marriages, and I'll post those either later on today, or tomorrow!

Raefindel · 05-10-2002, 05:52 PM

Thank You, Nufaciel, that was interesting. Odd that they wore their rings on the right hand.

Kalimac · 05-10-2002, 11:45 PM

Nufaciel, good stuff! Thanks for putting it up.

Rae, in many parts of Europe the wedding ring is worn on the right hand. I'm not sure if it's like that in England now (do any English 'Downers have info on this?) but it may have earlier, so Tolkien may have just been giving them the standard hand. I know it's still like that in Russia; when I was there I wore my engagement ring on my right hand.

Tarthang · 05-10-2002, 11:58 PM

I know for a fact that the Germans (or west Germans when there was political cause to make the distinction) wore the wedding band on the right hand. What's odd to me is that Elves wear them on the index finger (unless the British term differs from the American for index finger).

Estelyn Telcontar · 05-11-2002, 03:06 AM

In Germany, the wedding band is still worn on the ring finger of the right hand. The same ring is worn on the ring finger of the left hand at engagement and is simply moved to the right hand after marriage.

Nevtalathiel · 05-11-2002, 11:11 AM

On the wearing of rings, the English wear both engagemant and wedding rings on the ring finger of the left hand, and the index finger, in english, is the one nearest the thumb.

If the elves apparently never re-married, what about Finwë, who remarried afer Miriel's spirit "passed in silence to the Halls of Mandos", or is this the exception which was hinted at above?

Raefindel · 05-12-2002, 09:37 PM

That's interesting info about the ring finger in different societies, everyone. I only ever knew one couple who wore their rings on the right, she had no left arm (was born that way) and he wore his ring on the right with her.

Naaramare · 05-26-2002, 09:46 PM

Finwe was the one exception, and (as it turned out) a mistake. His first wife's spirit relinquished her hold on him after she departed, leaving him free to marry again. This, however, very much contributed to Feanor's eventual downfall.

So it happened once, and probably shouldn't have.

Raefindel · 05-26-2002, 11:20 PM

Wow! That's interesting, Naaramare . Thanks for the info. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Nevtalathiel · 05-27-2002, 11:03 AM

Thanks Naaramare, that had been bugging me for a while!

Naaramare · 05-27-2002, 10:43 PM

You're welcome, Raefindel and Nevtalathiel. It's a question that recently came up on a writing board I frequent, so I had the answer to hand. ^^

05-08-2002, 10:20 AM	#1
Raefindel Sword of the Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,325	Question of Fidelity I was wondering what happens in a case like Elrond's where one spouse has left Middle Earth for the Havens, Is the remaining spouse required to remain faithful to his marriage vows? Or is it treated like a death in that he may re-marry if he wishes? __________________ Blessed be the Lord my Strength, Who trained my hands for war and my fingers to fight. Psallm 144:1

05-08-2002, 10:26 AM	#2
stone of vision Haunting Spirit Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: France Posts: 69	OUAAAAH! Re-mary?!! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] No way! I'm very "oldish" there but Fidelity fo ever that's so romantic! lol! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ silmarillien All that is gold doesn't glitter. ********************************* Nee, ai**ara Dare mo ga konna kodoku ni naru no?

05-08-2002, 11:22 AM	#3
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,436	It isn't something that they are required to do, so much as it's something that they do anyway. Even when one dies they generally do not remarry. That only happened once. __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

05-08-2002, 02:44 PM	#4
Nufaciel Wight Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 133	Ooh, very involved question: The answer to this is best found in Morgoth's Ring and the Silmarillion. Someone else could probably answer this better than me (it's very involved, and I'm about to leave), but MR tells all about customs of the Elves, including marriage, remarriage, and rebirth. You should really check it out. __________________ Member of Pervy Elf Fanciers Anonymous...I need professional help.

05-08-2002, 03:16 PM	#5
Raefindel Sword of the Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,325	I see. I haven't gotten to that chapter yet. Thank You, Nufaciel and Burrahobbit. I'll look it up. (My daughter got hold of my Sil book and scribbled in it, so I'll hope that part isn't ruined). __________________ Blessed be the Lord my Strength, Who trained my hands for war and my fingers to fight. Psallm 144:1

05-09-2002, 02:37 PM	#6
Nufaciel Wight Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 133	Let me know if you want some quotes from MR, and I can either post them here or send them to you. __________________ Member of Pervy Elf Fanciers Anonymous...I need professional help.

05-09-2002, 06:39 PM	#7
Elven-Maiden Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 307	oooh! I'd like some quotes! please and thank you! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] I'm a good girl, I am, with no time to read. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] __________________ Tout ce qui est or ne brille pas, Tous ceux qui errent ne sont pas perdus. Mobilis in Mobile

05-09-2002, 08:38 PM	#8
Raefindel Sword of the Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,325	Thank you Nufaciel, What a sweet offer. That chapter seems to have come through the attack unharmed. But I appriciate the offer. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ Blessed be the Lord my Strength, Who trained my hands for war and my fingers to fight. Psallm 144:1

05-09-2002, 08:51 PM	#9
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	Without having read the background material (I'll give you fair warning on that) it seems like a rather medieval situation in a way, where if one spouse had decided to give his or her life to God and went into a monastery/convent, the other spouse could marry again since the other one was "dead to this world." It was unfortunate in a way since the convent proved to be a great place for kings with roving eyes to shove inconvenient first wives off to, but theoretically it made sense. Maybe the Elves were the same way? Though they don't seem to have been in any kind of hurry to get married once, let alone twice. Arwen was single for about 2,800 years and nobody seemed to think that was unusually long [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]. __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

05-10-2002, 11:20 AM	#10
Nufaciel Wight Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 133	Well, there are too many quotes to put here, it would be a whole chapter, but let me give you some of my notes, with quotes interspersed. These are from Morgoth's Ring, and are accurate, I assure you. The page numbers are in parenthesis. (Hardback version) These are from the section entitled: OF THE LAWS AND CUSTOMS AMONG THE ELDAR... -Eldar married early, usually not long after age 50 (209) -did not have many children: Fëanor held the record with seven. usually had four children or less (210) -"Their families, or houses, were held together by love and a deep feeling for kinship in mind and body;...and the children needed little governing or teaching." (210) -married only once, for love or by free will -there are very few "deeds of lust among" the Eldar -spirits of Eldar are in complete control of their bodies and "are seldom swayed by the desires of the body only, but are by nature continent and steadfast." (211) TO MARRY -may choose spouse early in life, even when they were still children (210) -the parents of the children decide when they are to be married, unless the children were of an age to go ahead with marriage and wanted to be married very soon (210) -when the engagement "was announced at a meeting of the two houses concerned" (210), the two to be married gave each other silver rings. the engagement lasted for a year or more. (210-211) -at any time during the engagement the pair can call off the wedding by publicly returning the rings, which were then melted down so that they were never used again. breaking of engagement rare, vow to marry was never taken frivolously by the Eldar (211) -after a year had passed, the engaged set the time for their wedding (211) -at the time for the wedding, the houses of the two families got together for a feast to celebrate the marriage. (211) "At the end of the feast the betrothed stood forth, and the mother of the bride and the father of the bridegroom joined the hands of the pair and bless them." (211) "For this blessing there was a solemn form, but no mortal has heard it; though the Eldar say that Varda was named in witness by the mother and Manwë by the father; and moreover that the name of Eru was spoken (as was seldom done at any other time). (211) -after the blessings were completed, the pair gave back the silver rings (to cherish forever) and exchanged gold rings that they wore on the right hand on the index finger. (211) __________________ Member of Pervy Elf Fanciers Anonymous...I need professional help.

05-10-2002, 11:23 AM	#11
Nufaciel Wight Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 133	-after the blessings were completed, the pair gave back the silver rings (to cherish forever) and exchanged gold rings that they wore on the right hand on the index finger. (211) -the mother of the bride gives the bridegroom a gift: a jewel on a chain or collar. the father of the bridegroom gives the bride a similar gift. gifts usually given at feast, but sometimes before (example is Galadriel's gift to Aragorn) (211) -the ceremony was not needed for the couple to marry, this was to join the two houses of the engaged, and allowed the parents to show their love for their children. (211-212); however, it was considered "ungracious and contemptuous to kin" not to have the ceremony during peaceful times, but marriage without ceremony was perfectly lawful. during "times of trouble, in flight and exile and wandering" there were many marriages that came without the ceremony. (212) "It was the act of bodily union that achieved marriage, and after which the indissoluble bond was complete." (212) These are about marriage. Let me get my quotes for the dissolving of marriages, and I'll post those either later on today, or tomorrow! __________________ Member of Pervy Elf Fanciers Anonymous...I need professional help.

05-10-2002, 05:52 PM	#12
Raefindel Sword of the Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,325	Thank You, Nufaciel, that was interesting. Odd that they wore their rings on the right hand. __________________ Blessed be the Lord my Strength, Who trained my hands for war and my fingers to fight. Psallm 144:1

05-10-2002, 11:45 PM	#13
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	Nufaciel, good stuff! Thanks for putting it up. Rae, in many parts of Europe the wedding ring is worn on the right hand. I'm not sure if it's like that in England now (do any English 'Downers have info on this?) but it may have earlier, so Tolkien may have just been giving them the standard hand. I know it's still like that in Russia; when I was there I wore my engagement ring on my right hand. __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

05-10-2002, 11:58 PM	#14
Tarthang Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Paths of the Dead Posts: 108	I know for a fact that the Germans (or west Germans when there was political cause to make the distinction) wore the wedding band on the right hand. What's odd to me is that Elves wear them on the index finger (unless the British term differs from the American for index finger).

05-11-2002, 03:06 AM	#15
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,645	In Germany, the wedding band is still worn on the ring finger of the right hand. The same ring is worn on the ring finger of the left hand at engagement and is simply moved to the right hand after marriage. __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

05-11-2002, 11:11 AM	#16
Nevtalathiel Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: The depths of delusion Posts: 374	On the wearing of rings, the English wear both engagemant and wedding rings on the ring finger of the left hand, and the index finger, in english, is the one nearest the thumb. If the elves apparently never re-married, what about Finwë, who remarried afer Miriel's spirit "passed in silence to the Halls of Mandos", or is this the exception which was hinted at above? __________________ "You can go a long way with a smile. You can go even further with a smile and a gun." - Al Capone

05-12-2002, 09:37 PM	#17
Raefindel Sword of the Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,325	That's interesting info about the ring finger in different societies, everyone. I only ever knew one couple who wore their rings on the right, she had no left arm (was born that way) and he wore his ring on the right with her. __________________ Blessed be the Lord my Strength, Who trained my hands for war and my fingers to fight. Psallm 144:1

05-26-2002, 09:46 PM	#18
Naaramare Wight Join Date: May 2002 Location: Fort St John Posts: 196	Finwe was the one exception, and (as it turned out) a mistake. His first wife's spirit relinquished her hold on him after she departed, leaving him free to marry again. This, however, very much contributed to Feanor's eventual downfall. So it happened once, and probably shouldn't have. __________________ "I once spent two weeks in a tree trying to talk to a bird." --Puck, Brother Mine si man i yulma nin equantuva? [my blog]

05-26-2002, 11:20 PM	#19
Raefindel Sword of the Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,325	Wow! That's interesting, Naaramare . Thanks for the info. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ Blessed be the Lord my Strength, Who trained my hands for war and my fingers to fight. Psallm 144:1

05-27-2002, 11:03 AM	#20
Nevtalathiel Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: The depths of delusion Posts: 374	Thanks Naaramare, that had been bugging me for a while! __________________ "You can go a long way with a smile. You can go even further with a smile and a gun." - Al Capone

05-27-2002, 10:43 PM	#21
Naaramare Wight Join Date: May 2002 Location: Fort St John Posts: 196	You're welcome, Raefindel and Nevtalathiel. It's a question that recently came up on a writing board I frequent, so I had the answer to hand. ^^ __________________ "I once spent two weeks in a tree trying to talk to a bird." --Puck, Brother Mine si man i yulma nin equantuva? [my blog]