The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-12-2002, 04:46 PM   #1
Lhunbelethiel
Wight
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: San Francisco Bay Area (aka Bay of Belfalas)
Posts: 103
Lhunbelethiel has just left Hobbiton.
Sting Writing style, Hobbit vs. LOTR

I have started reading the Hobbit after reading the LOTR trilogy and noticed that Tolkien's writing style is very different in the two stories. The writing in the Hobbit seems more familiar and loose, while the LOTR is often formal and sort of complex. The Hobbit is more light hearted while LOTR is quite serious much of the time. Any idea why this is? Is it due to the characters heis writing about (Bilbo as a befuddled hobbit, whereas Frodo is serious) or the events that are happening (dragon hunting vs. Sauron stalking) or perhaps the time in which JRR Tolkien was writing? Was he more mature, more set in the mythology when he wrote LOTR than in the Hobbit? Was it because of different audiences? Your ideas??

(Hope this makes sense) I love the Hobbit already, so I am not putting it down at all! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
__________________
*~~All that is gold does not glitter, not all who wander are lost, all that is old does not wither, deep roots are not touched by the frost...~~*
Lhunbelethiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2002, 05:10 PM   #2
Niere-Teleliniel
Haunting Spirit
 
Niere-Teleliniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In a messy room on the third floor.
Posts: 67
Niere-Teleliniel has just left Hobbiton.
Tolkien

The Hobbit was started all of a sudden while JRRT was grading an exam paper and found a blank page. In a burst of inspiration, he scribbled the opening sentence, "In a hole in the ground, there lived a Hobbit." He then spent time "discovering" Bilbo and Hobbits in general. He finished it as a child's tale and passed out to friends "for fun." It was only because an editor got wind of it and asked for a copy that the book was ever published.

After the book recieved great praise, the publishers asked for another story. Tolkien submitted his latest draft of the Silmarillion, but they rejected it and asked for a sequel to the Hobbit. Tolkien decided to elaborate on the ring angle, and started writing The Lord of the Rings, a different, and much more chilling tale.

The way the writing styles differ is (in my opinion) prolly because Tolkien was much more serious about LOTR. The Hobbit was more of a hobby, if you will. It was just Tolkien having fun imagining and playing around with his silly little hobbit, Bilbo. LOTR however, was a request from the publisher. He thought more deeply about it, and was therefore much more intense in his writing. It was written to be an actual novel, and not a lighthearted children's book.

For more info, check out Myth Maker: J.R.R. Tolkien by Anne E. Neimark

[ May 12, 2002: Message edited by: Niere-Teleliniel ]
__________________
He felt that his whole life was some kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it....

~Douglas Adams
Niere-Teleliniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2002, 06:55 PM   #3
Lhunbelethiel
Wight
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: San Francisco Bay Area (aka Bay of Belfalas)
Posts: 103
Lhunbelethiel has just left Hobbiton.
Thumbs up

That was kind of the way I was thinking. Thanks for clarifying!!
__________________
*~~All that is gold does not glitter, not all who wander are lost, all that is old does not wither, deep roots are not touched by the frost...~~*
Lhunbelethiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2002, 11:16 PM   #4
Child of the 7th Age
Spirit of the Lonely Star
 
Child of the 7th Age's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,135
Child of the 7th Age is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Tolkien

As you've said, the Hobbit and the LOTR are definitely different in tone. However, if you read the beginning chapters of the Rings, especially A Long-Expected Party, you'll see that the change is actually gradual. When Tolkien first began writing the "sequel" requested by his publisher, he really didn't know where the story would lead him. He didn't recognize at first just how high and serious it would become, and how it would tie into many of the important themes of the earlier ages.

So the earliest chapter starts out sounding almost like a continuation of the Hobbit. It's got a lot of humor, for example poking fun at the foibles of some of Bilbo's relatives and neighbors by the particular kind of presents he left for them which highlighted their shortcomings. Also, it has a very colloquial style because that's just the way most Hobbits speak (though the speech of Merry, Pippin Frodo, and even to some degree Sam changes later in the book as they interact with more courtly cultures.)

In the Hobbit, the Shire often sounds more like it belongs in Victorian or Edwardian England rather than the ancient, heroic cultures like the men of Gondor or Rohan. One example of this from the Hobbit would be when Bilbo is all concerned because he lost his handkerchief, an item that figures several times through the story. There is some of this Victorian/Edwardian flavor still left in the first chapter of LOTR. When they describe the dragon fireworks, for example, Tolkien says it "passed like an express train" which is obviously not something you'd find in Middle-earth.

Of course, some of this simply reflected the simplicity and simple joys of Hobbit culture. But, by the time you come back to Hobbiton at the end, with the Scouring of the Shire, there's a much different tone.

So even though there's a sharp contrast between the two books, the actual transition in tone and language comes about more slowly.
__________________
Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.
Child of the 7th Age is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2002, 10:07 PM   #5
Lhunbelethiel
Wight
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: San Francisco Bay Area (aka Bay of Belfalas)
Posts: 103
Lhunbelethiel has just left Hobbiton.
Thumbs up

Thank you for the interesting and thoughtful replies!!!
__________________
*~~All that is gold does not glitter, not all who wander are lost, all that is old does not wither, deep roots are not touched by the frost...~~*
Lhunbelethiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2002, 09:11 AM   #6
Frodo Baggins
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Bag-End, Under-Hill, Hobbiton-across-the Water
Posts: 606
Frodo Baggins has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

I noticed the same thing Lhunbelethiel. I heard somewhere that the chapter "The Shadoe of the past" was written before the reast of LOTR.

"confusicate and bebother these dwarves!"
__________________
"I'm your huckleberry....that's just my game."
Frodo Baggins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2002, 10:23 PM   #7
Luntindomeiel
Pile O'Bones
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Hobbiton
Posts: 11
Luntindomeiel has just left Hobbiton.
Tolkien

I think you can note the difference between The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings: Tolkien wrote The Hobbit for his kids, and you can see that as its much easier to understand than the Lord of the Rings or the Silmarillion
__________________
Tenna' ento lye omenta,
«º¨± HøßßiT ± ¨º»
http://www.plauder-smilies.de/poke2.gif
Luntindomeiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2002, 01:30 PM   #8
Jessica Jade
Wight
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Tirion upon Túna, Atlanta
Posts: 154
Jessica Jade has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Jessica Jade
Sting

"The Hobbit is only tangentially connected to the greater history of Middle Earth; it is in many ways a children's story, especially when compared with the epic mythology of The Silmarillion or the desperate wars of The Lord of the Rings. Tolkien "tested" The Hobbit as he wrote it by reading it to his sons, and the manner of narration is, at times, very much like a children's story; it includes such "asides" to the audience as, "He was only a little hobbit you must remember." In fact, the original manuscript of The Hobbit included much more of this sort of language, but Tolkien later removed most of it."

---from Sparknotes
__________________
http://www.cadential64.com

The musicians had indeed laid bare the youngest, most innocent of our ideas of life, the indestructible yearning for the way things aren't and can never be. ~ Philip Roth, The Human Stain
Jessica Jade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2002, 03:55 PM   #9
Beatrice
Pile O'Bones
 
Beatrice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 16
Beatrice has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

Look, the more a person keeps writing, the more their style will change. I know because I write fanfics and that's how it is with me. My earliest fics are different from my latest "works of fiction". Just wanted to add in my own two cents! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
Beatrice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2002, 07:07 PM   #10
Greycloak
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 29
Greycloak has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Quote:
Tolkien wrote The Hobbit for his kids,
Actually, Tolkien wrote LoTR for his kids as well, but they were grown by that time.
Greycloak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2002, 02:42 PM   #11
Gimli Son Of Gloin
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: The Halls of Montezuma, and the Shores of Tripoli
Posts: 495
Gimli Son Of Gloin has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

In The Hobbit, Tolkien writes as though he was almost in the story.
Quote:
If you had heard only a quater of what I have heard about him, and I have only heard very little of all there is to hear, you would be prepared for any sort of remarkable tale.
Quote:
The mother of our particular hobbit-what is a hobbit? I suppose hobbits need some description nowadays, since they have become rare and shy of the Big People, as they call us.
See what I mean? He kind of wrote like Walter R. Brooks.(He wrote the Freddy the Pig books)

[ May 23, 2002: Message edited by: Gimli Son Of Gloin ]
__________________
The Few, the Proud, the Marines.
Gimli Son Of Gloin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2002, 03:39 PM   #12
Flute the elf
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
White-Hand

[img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] unfortunatly, I noticed the difference as well. I read the hobbit 1st & loved ti, so i read LOTR & loved it. I recently re-read the hobbit & hated it...the writing style I found to be almost insultingly simple, unlike LOTR. I believe the sil. is even more serious but I love that...the hobbit is just too simple.. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2002, 05:18 PM   #13
Child of the 7th Age
Spirit of the Lonely Star
 
Child of the 7th Age's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,135
Child of the 7th Age is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Sting

Flute the Elf -- What a beautiful name! Are you musical by any chance? Welcome to the Downs.

Don't be fooled by the simple language of the Hobbit. Yes, it is a children's book, but some of the best literature in the world falls into that category.

And the Hobbit tells us a whole lot about how Bilbo changed from a very self centered creature, concerned only with himself and his hobbit hole, to someone who meets a whole series of moral and physical challenges and emerges with a much different attitude towards life. There's another thread on the board, Bilbo Baggins Testimonial, that talks about some of this.

You can even read about some of this in Unfinished Tales where one chapter explains how Gandalf came to the Shire and specifically chose Bilbo for this adventure to shake the Hobbits out of their complacency.

The interesting thing is that each of Tolkien's main writings are so very different-LotR, Silm, and Hobbit--but each is good in its own way.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[ May 23, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]
__________________
Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.
Child of the 7th Age is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2002, 08:40 PM   #14
Naaramare
Wight
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Fort St John
Posts: 196
Naaramare has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Naaramare
Sting

I would also have to say that the Hobbit is much better when you listen to a good reader read it aloud, as I did. Its style is much more that of the spoken word, as opposed to the written-word style of LotR and the Silm.
__________________
"I once spent two weeks in a tree trying to talk to a bird."
--Puck, Brother Mine

si man i yulma nin equantuva? [my blog]
Naaramare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2002, 08:59 PM   #15
Araen
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 70
Araen has just left Hobbiton.
Thumbs up

I like to think that The Hobbit is being told by Samwise, Merry or Pippin to their children. In Merry or Pippin's case to educate their children on their families history. Just a random rambaling thought.
__________________
"Where is the horse and the rider, where is the horn that was blowing, they have passed like rain on the mountains, like wind in the meadow, the days are damned in the west? behind the hills? there are shadows... "
Araen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2002, 10:29 PM   #16
Raefindel
Sword of the Spirit
 
Raefindel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Washington State
Posts: 1,325
Raefindel has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Raefindel
Sting

Welcome to the Downs, Flute the Elf and Naarmare! Live long and Pros... oh I mean Mae Govannen.

[ May 24, 2002: Message edited by: Raefindel ]
__________________
Blessed be the Lord my Strength, Who trained my hands for war and my fingers to fight. Psallm 144:1
Raefindel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2002, 10:31 PM   #17
Naaramare
Wight
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Fort St John
Posts: 196
Naaramare has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Naaramare
Sting

Why, thank you, Raefindel. I think that finding this place is the best thing that's happened to me for months.
__________________
"I once spent two weeks in a tree trying to talk to a bird."
--Puck, Brother Mine

si man i yulma nin equantuva? [my blog]
Naaramare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2002, 07:44 AM   #18
Birdland
Ghastly Neekerbreeker
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto
Posts: 1,757
Birdland has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

I just recently re-read The Hobbit after many years, and one of the things I appreciated about it now is the fact that Bilbo has to use his wits throughout the book, not just to save his own life, but to actually avert a war between the Elves and the Dwarves.

Being the smallest of the races, I'm sure Hobbits had to develop the ability to "think their way" out of a number of deadly situations. Bilbo demonstrates this talent admirably throughout the Hobbit.

And he seems to be one of the few characters to see the "big picture." He does his best, not to help Thorin hold his place on the mountain, but to keep the races of Dwarves, Elves, and Men from starting a ill-conceived war over treasure, which would have led to disaster for them all, particularly since the real enemies, (goblins and Dragon) would have annihilated them all while they were bickering over the gold.

This is a very "adult" lesson to learn from a children's book.
Birdland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2002, 12:38 PM   #19
Raefindel
Sword of the Spirit
 
Raefindel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Washington State
Posts: 1,325
Raefindel has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Raefindel
Sting

Yes, Birdland, I love the way Bilbo knew just what to give Thranduil to "even the odds"... The Arkenstone. His wisdom and insight are often overlooked.
__________________
Blessed be the Lord my Strength, Who trained my hands for war and my fingers to fight. Psallm 144:1
Raefindel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2002, 12:39 PM   #20
Raefindel
Sword of the Spirit
 
Raefindel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Washington State
Posts: 1,325
Raefindel has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Raefindel
Sting

Hey, Birdland! You're a "ghastly neekbreeker"! Wow! how long have you had a personal title? Good for you!
__________________
Blessed be the Lord my Strength, Who trained my hands for war and my fingers to fight. Psallm 144:1
Raefindel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2002, 09:12 AM   #21
*Varda*
Maiden of Tears
 
*Varda*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Valinor.
Posts: 572
*Varda* has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via MSN to *Varda*
Sting

i know exactly what you mean. Personally i think one of the reasons for the change in style is simply because Tolkien spent so much more time on Lord of the Rings. he literally poured his heart and soul into it, and of course the finished result is amazing. Lord of the Rings is meant to appeal to a more adult audience and the Hobbit is more for children (although i still love it!). But also as someone mentioned, people's styles of writing do change, and in Tolkiens case i think it was for the best. Now i just have to try and get through the Silmarillion - i really want to read it all but it gets so confusing!
__________________
'It must often be so, Sam, when things are in danger: someone has to give them up, lose them, so that others may keep them' ~Frodo
"Life is hard. After all, it kills you." - Katharine Hepburn
*Varda* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2002, 01:42 PM   #22
Belin
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Belin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: all the wide unfriendly pathways of the world
Posts: 330
Belin has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via Yahoo to Belin
Shield

I think there's more to it than that, and I also think Child was on the right track when she mentioned the gradual change of style in LotR. Tokien's style fits itself to its subject matter in interesting ways. Let's look at the changes in LotR.

Among the Rohirrim:
Quote:
Right through the press drove Theoden Thengel's son, and his spear was shivered as he threw down their chieftain. Out swept his sword, and he spurred to the standard, hewed staff and bearer; and the black serpent foundered. Then all that was left unslain of their cavalry turned and fled far away.
Notice, particularly, the rhythm and the alliteration. It sounds a little like Anglo-Saxon poetry, not a surprise considering all the connections between them and the Rohirrim. As Child noted, the early parts of LotR, set in the Shire, sound both "Hobbitish" and hobbitish. In Tom Bombadil's house, the narration sounds like this:

Quote:
Its walls were of clean stone, but they were mostly covered with green hanging mats and yellow crtains. The floor was flagged, and strewn with fresh green rushes. There were four deep mattresses, each piled with white blankets, laid on the floor along one side.
Here, although you don't get the same bouncy rhythm of Tom's songs, you do get a similar sounding attention to a particular kind of detail, especially the mention of colors. Or Fangorn Forest:

Quote:
The drink was like water, indeed very like the taste of the draughts they had drunk from the Entwash near the borders of the forest, and yet there was some scent or savour in it which they could not describe: it was faint, but it reminded them of the smell of a distant wood borne from afar by a cool breeze at night. The effect of the draught began at the toes, and rose steadily through every limb, bringing refresment and vigour as it coursed upwards, right to the tips of the hair.
The sentences are long and unhasty, dealing slowly with each part of the experience and the memories it brings.

And so forth... LotR is not one style, but many. I also notice a difference between Lothlorien and Gondor and Mordor, but have not yet been able to quantify it. In any case, the effect is almost that of a history assembled from the acconts of several different groups of people, a view the appendices support.

Unfortunately, I am in great need of rereading both the Hobbit and the Sil, but the feeling of vocally-told-to-children the Hobbit has seems to me perfectly suitable, considering the subtitle, "There and Back Again," which envisions us pretty strongly as Shire-Dwellers. I imagine some later relative of Bilbo's telling it to their children. I would also imagine, although I still have to go looking for this, that the style of the Sil is closer to that of the elven-parts of LotR than to the rest, given that it is mostly Elvish history.

--Belin Ibaimendi

[ May 26, 2002: Message edited by: Belin ]
__________________
"I hate dignity," cried Scraps, kicking a pebble high in the air and then trying to catch it as it fell. "Half the fools and all the wise folks are dignified, and I'm neither the one nor the other." --L. Frank Baum
Belin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2002, 01:53 PM   #23
GreatWarg
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: East of the Misty Mountains
Posts: 339
GreatWarg has just left Hobbiton.
Question

Yup, lots of things affected the way the Hobbit and LOTR was written. first, he didn't write LOTR until AFTER WWI, where he had more experience in battle and conquest, where in areas for the Hobbit was intended as a children's book. LOTR was perhaps aimed to a more mature audience because of such detailed description and intense vocabulary.
__________________
"What shall we do, what shall we do!" he cried. "Escaping goblins to be caught be wolves!"
GreatWarg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2002, 08:40 AM   #24
Jessica Jade
Wight
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Tirion upon Túna, Atlanta
Posts: 154
Jessica Jade has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Jessica Jade
Sting

I read some stuff at Sparknotes that I found interesting:

Though Tolkien's world is one of fantasy, he designed it to reflect certain truths about the real world. The Hobbit addresses the problem of determining the "right" way for a hobbit (or any ordinary person) to live. Should he concern himself with great deeds and wars and risk losing the humble perspective afforded by the simple life? Or should the ordinary person never look outside her own quiet existence and risk ignoring the larger perspective that might have allowed her to do great things for the common good? The truth that emerges from The Hobbit is that, if one is called on to play a part in great affairs--as we all are, at least according to Tolkien's Christian perspective--then one should not shirk one's duty. To perform that duty well, however, one must never lose sight of one's own insignificance in the larger scheme of things nor lose respect for the value of the simple life.

That IS a very adult lesson for a children's book!
__________________
http://www.cadential64.com

The musicians had indeed laid bare the youngest, most innocent of our ideas of life, the indestructible yearning for the way things aren't and can never be. ~ Philip Roth, The Human Stain
Jessica Jade is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:55 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.