Middle Earth come to life

[littlemanpoet]

Reading The Two Towers again I was astounded this time at Tolkien's use of words.

His description of the marshes below the Emyn Muil is "livid festering marshes". We would normally think of "livid festering wounds". Thus Middle Earth is alive and wounded.

I was tempted to do a 'for the fun of it' research project on my own, but thought I'd spread the fun. Has anybody else found other examples?

[ May 07, 2002: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]

[Nar]

Before I go rereading all of LotR, you are asking not just for examples of good descriptions of middle earth but specifically for descriptions of middle earth that suggest it is a living entity as in the Gaia theory? Any use of imagery appropriate to describe a body? Ok. Hmm.

Well, there's Carcaras, he's alive, and none too nice, either. Do you think your exemplar image is tied to the marshes as an 'individual' wounded body, and not all of middle earth, just as Carcaras the cruel is an individual mountain? Or is all of middle earth the wounded body?

Rohan stands out in my mind as an important landscape, but I don't remember any body imagery, just a lovely green panoramic view with wind. I can still see every blade of grass leaning sideways with the morning light behind it. Definitely no wounding of Rohan. The brown lands are dead-- home of the entwives, sniff! As the ground before the Morannon is dead -- or if you want middle earth to be one body, they're both gangrened, slowly poisoning the rest. Of course, Mt. Doom and the surrounding fissures are gaping wounds, still bleeding fire. I think I remember the RotK mentioning rents and wounds in that context, and twisting-- no bleeding fire, though it does seem appropriate now that I think of it. When I reread the books recently the plight of the thorns almost made me cry-- desperately trying to drag a twisted life out of the barren rock and acrid air-- hang on, I'll go get the quote.

Upon its outer marges under the westward mountains Mordor was a dying land, but it was not yet dead. ... here things still grew, harsh, twisted, bitter, struggling for life. ... low scrubby trees lurked and clung, coarse grey grass-tussocks fought with stones, and withered mosses crawled on them; and everywhere great, writhing, tangled brambles sprawled. ... they went on up the ravine, until it ended in a sharp slope of screes and sliding stones. There the last living things gave up their struggle; the tops of the Morgai were grassless, bare, jagged, barren as a slate

The poor thorns! Not their fault they've been twisted --it's not like they could flee, they're plants-- and they're trying so hard! And here I'd just got through sniffling over the plight of the poor irredemably messed up orcs.

[piosenniel]

i haven't looked for specific examples, but it seems the trees stand out as living beings - some even sentient, or near sentient

[littlemanpoet]

The examples don't have to be limited to "Middle Earth alive". If you run across an astounding description that serves as an example of Tolkien's wordsmithying, that's the kind of thing I'm looking for. I want to open it up for an appreciation kind of tone.

[ May 07, 2002: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]

[Tigerlily Gamgee]

Oooo, I just came across this one last night while re-reading The Two Towers...

Here nothing lived, not even the leprous growths that feed on rottenness. The gasping pools were choked with ash and crawling muds, sickly white and grey, as if the mountains had vomited the filth of their entrails upon the lands about

Now that sure doesn't sound like a happy place to be visiting. Poor Sam and Frodo.

I know. Our homeland is beautiful, isn't it? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

No really...Tolkien didn't exactly flatter the place. Too bad, I've always thought deserts very pretty...

Anyway. I suppose the forests could be a beard, and the mountains pimples on the landscape. ^^

[littlemanpoet]

You raise good thought provoking questions, Nar, as can of course be expected. I was in haste when I answered your reply the first time, and did not do it justice. I'll try again.

I hesitate to go so far as labeling what Tolkien is doing as using or evoking a 'Gaia' notion (or theory). I think any use of imagery that bodily personifies middle earth is what I'm talking about.

I appreciate your ideas on Caradhras (Carcaras?). Yes, the marshes could be an individual wounded body, too, as Caradhras is an individual mountain with his own personality.

Here's another one regarding the Emyn Muil:
the hills' "broken feet". JRRT could have written something more prosaic and cliche such as "boulder strewn" or "rugged terrain", but he finds a way to give the hills personality, albeit maimed.

To quote your quote:

low scrubby trees lurked and clung ...grass-tussocks fought with stones...withered mosses crawled...the last living things gave up their struggle...

Here again these living plants are alive and suffering in an almost mammalian way.

Thanks, Tigerlilly, for that quote. I remember it well. I'll be glad, piosenniel, to get to Ithilien - maybe those trees will come to life - almost as in Fangorn...

[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Second Nazgul, thanks for the pimples and beard. Reminds me of my own face... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[zifnab]

LittleManPoet, very interesting thread. I can't say, I totally agree with you, but then again, I have never really considered the idea. Very interesting.

I assume you are referring to the 'Dead Marshes', and the thought of the land being alive? I always thought, it was the dead that were 'alive' and corrupted and twisted the area in there own way. Making the plants and rocks and sth, act as a part of their own 'spirit'. If you could call it such.

'I don't know,' said Frodo in a dreamlike voice. 'But I have seen them too. In the pools when the candles were lit. They lie in all the pools, pale faces, deep deep under the dark water. I saw them: grim faces and evil, and noble faces and sad. Many faces proud and fair, and weeds in their silver hair. But all foul, all rotting, all dead. A fell light is in them.' Frodo hid his eyes in his hands. 'I know not who they are; but I thought I saw there Men and Elves, and Orcs beside them.'

Their has been many threads on the so-called entity of the Caradhras. I won't get into that now, since at the moment, beileve it or not, Im busy. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] But one thing that springs to mind is The Hobbit, wither you believe in 'Stone Giants' or that the mountain IS alive, or just a freak natual occurrence.

When he(Bilbo) peeped out in the lightning-flashes, he saw that across the valley the stone-giants were out and were hurling rocks at one another for a game, and catching them, and tossing them down into the darkness where they smashed among the trees far below, or splintered into little bits with a bang. Then came a wind and a rain, and the wind whipped the rain and the hail about in every direction, so that an overhanging rock was no protection at all. Soon they were getting drenched and their ponies were standing with their heads down and their tails between their legs, and some of them were whinnying with fright. They could hear the giants guffawing and shouting all over the mountainsides.

Anyways, it is a very interesting topic, and one that I will keep my mind open too.

[littlemanpoet]

I think, zifnab, that Tolkien is working on both levels at once, that the dead in the Dead Marshes are, frankly dead, and at the same time he personifies the place itself as a livid festering wound. My interest and goal for this thread is to do an appreciation of this particular aspect of Tolkien's skill as a writer (who should be hailed as that, and should be considered to stand shoulder to shoulder - perhaps head and shoulder above - with Steinbeck, Golding, and any other major 20th century author you can think of).

[Nar]

I've got a great one for you! As they ride blithely on, the Hobbits are surveying -- our own Barrow-Downs!!

he turned his glance eastwards, and he saw that on that side the hills were higher and looked down upon them; and all those hills were crowned with green mounds, and on some were standing stones, pointing upwards like jagged teeth out of green gums.
That view was somehow disquieting ...

So, the downs were lazing like a crocodile in the sun, jaws wide, waiting for the little fishies to swim right inside the ring of teeth-- I love it!

[Mister Underhill]

I've always been partial to this one:

A long-tilted valley, a deep gulf of shadow, ran back far into the mountains. Upon the further side, some way within the valley's arms high on a rocky seat upon the black knees of the Ephel Dúath, stood the walls and tower of Minas Morgul. All was dark about it, earth and sky, but it was lit with light. Not the imprisoned moonlight welling through the marble walls of Minas Ithil long ago, Tower of the Moon, fair and radiant in the hollow of the hills. Paler indeed than the moon ailing in some slow eclipse was the light of it now, wavering and blowing like a noisome exhalation of decay, a corpse-light, a light that illuminated nothing. In the walls and tower windows showed, like countless black holes looking inward into emptiness; but the topmost course of the tower revolved slowly, first one way and then another, a huge ghostly head leering into the night.

The prof seems to really feel his oats when he's describing an evil setting.

[littlemanpoet]

The prof seems to really feel his oats when he's describing an evil setting.

or anything noisome. Great quote, Master.

Here's another one.

Far away, now almost due south, the mountain-walls of Mordor loomed, like a black bar of rugged clouds floating above a dangerous fog-bound sea.

Granted it's not personification per se, but it sure does set up one's expectations for how dangerous and evil and awful the place is Gollum is leading Frodo and Sam to.
Here's another.

Cold clammy winter still held sway in this forsaken country [the dead marshes]. The only green was the scum of livid weed on the dark greasy surfaces of the sullen waters. Dead grasses and rotting reeds loomed up in the mists like ragged shadows of long-forgotten summers.

Sullen waters. My usual compound with 'sullen' is 'attitude' or 'face'. Sullen waters.

This whole scene seems to have been built for Tolkien out of his experience in the trenches of WWI; don't you think? Greasy surfaces of sullen waters. The liquid residue from internal combustion engines comes to mind, although it could just as well be the decay of the livid weed itself.

As you can tell I'm making a slow read of it this time...

[ May 12, 2002: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]

[littlemanpoet]

Faramir's vision of Boromir is powerful. I had forgottn how much so.

'I sat at night by the waters of Anduin, in the grey dark under the young pale moon, watching the ever-moving stream; and the sad reeds were rustling....But that night all the world slept at the midnight hour. Then I saw, or it seeme that I saw, a boat floating on the water, glimmering grey, a small boat of a strange fashion with a high prow, and there was non to row or steer it.
'An awe fell on me, for a pale light was round it.....Then the boat turned towards me, and stayed its pace, and floated slowly by within my hand's reach, yet I durst not handle it. It waded deep, as if it were heavily burdened, and it seemed to me as it passed under my gaze that it was almost filled with clear water, from which came the light; and lapped in the water a warrior lay asleep.

Visionary. Though Tolkien cordially disliked Shakespeare I see reminiscence of Ophilia here. I hope that doesn't ruin this for anybody. It's not Middle Earth come to life, per se, but this boat is given human qualities.

"Dreamlike it was, and yet no dream, for there was no waking." Beautiful.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Wonderful topic, littlemanpoet, and in paging through the RotK for the examples I wanted, I found it true that Tolkien described evil settings most vividly (lividly?!), as Mr. Underhill suggested. Here are several glimpses of Mount Doom that struck me:

Sam looking at Orodruin:

Ever and anon the furnaces far below its ashen cone pour forth rivers of molten rock from chasms in its sides. Some would flow blazing towards Barad-dûr down great channels; some would wind their way into the stone plain, until they cooled and lay like twisted dragon-shapes vomited from the tormented earth.

Mount Doom again:

…its feet founded in ashen ruin, its huge cone rising to a great height, where its reeking head was swathed in cloud. Its fires were now dimmed, and it stood in smouldering slumber, as threatening and dangerous as a sleeping beast.

And the end of Mount Doom as seen by Sam:

A brief vision he had of swirling cloud, and in the midst of it towers and battlements, tall as hills, founded upon a mighty mountain-throne above immeasurable pits; great courts and dungeons, eyeless prisons sheer as cliffs, and gaping gates of steel and adamant: and then all passed. Towers fell and mountains slid; walls crumbled and melted, crashing down; vast spires of smoke and spouting steams went billowing up, up, until they toppled like an overwhelming wave, and its wild crest curled and came foaming down upon the land.

The first two examples almost seem to describe a living entity; the third is quite an architectural description.

Passages like these are the reason I can reread LotR again and again…

[Nar]

I loved your examples, Estelyn. I never realized until you put them together, Mt. Doom essentially is described as a dragon! This may BE Tolkien's best dragon, littlemanpoet! Your last quote, Estelyn, is actually of the end of Barad-Dur-- Sam is watching Sauron's fortress crumble from the door Sammath Naur on Mt. Doom. 'Eyeless prisons' is a fascinating term to use for Sauron's fortress, gates of adament subtly raises the earlier 'proud and bitter crown,' a phrase I love. Then the falling is so reminiscent of the drowning of Numenor. Lovely.

[Sharkû]

"North amid their noisome pits lay the first of the great heaps and hills of slag and broken rock and blasted earth, the vomit of the maggot-folk of Mordor;" (V, 10)

`That is the fairest of all the dwellings of my people. There are no trees like the trees of that land. For in the autumn their leaves fall not, but turn to gold. Not till the spring comes and the new green opens do they fall, and then the boughs are laden with yellow flowers; and the floor of the wood is golden, and golden is the roof, and its pillars are of silver, for the bark of the trees is smooth and grey. So still our songs in Mirkwood say. My heart would be glad if I were beneath the eaves of that wood, and it were springtime! ' (Legolas, II, 6)

"A swooning light
faint filtered in, for facing North
they looked o'er the leagues of the lands of mourning,
o'er the bleak boulders, o'er the blistered dunes
and dusty drouth of Dor-na-Fauglith;
o'er that Thirsty Plain, to the threatening peaks,
now glimpsed grey through the grim archway,
of the marching might of the Mountains of Iron,
and faint and far in the flickering dusk
the thunderous towers of Thangorodrim." (Lays, I ii)

"They came now from the north, for so Mîm had led them, and the light of the westering sun fell upon the crown of Amon Rûdh, and the seregon was all in flower.
"See! There is blood on the hill-top," said Andróg.
"Not yet," said Túrin." (UT, II 6)

'And, Legolas, when the torches are kindled and men walk on the sandy floors under the echoing domes, ah! then, Legolas, gems and crystals and veins of precious ore glint in the polished walls; and the light glows through folded marbles, shell-like, translucent as the living hands of Queen Galadriel. There are columns of white and saffron and dawn-rose, Legolas, fluted and twisted into dreamlike forms; they spring up from many-coloured floors to meet the glistening pendants of the roof: wings, ropes, curtains fine as frozen clouds; spears, banners, pinnacles of suspended palaces! Still lakes mirror them: a glimmering world looks up from dark pools covered with clear glass; cities. such as the mind of Durin could scarce have imagined in his sleep, stretch on through avenues and pillared courts, on into the dark recesses where no light can come. And plink! a silver drop falls, and the round wrinkles in the glass make all the towers bend and waver like weeds and corals in a grotto of the sea. Then evening comes: they fade and twinkle out; the torches pass on into another chamber and another dream. There is chamber after chamber, Legolas; hall opening out of hall, dome after dome, stair beyond stair; and still the winding paths lead on into the mountains' heart. Caves! The Caverns of Helm's Deep! Happy was the chance that drove me there! It makes me weep to leave them. [...] We would tend these glades of flowering stone, not quarry them.' (Gimli, III, 8)

`Day is near,' he whispered, as if Day was something that might overhear him and spring on him. `Sméagol will stay here: I will stay here, and the Yellow Face won't see me.' (IV, 2)

Also consider the issuing forth of the host of Minas Morgul, and the hobbits in the Withywindle valley for examples of Tolkien's 'magical realism'.

Obviously, the view of an animated nature is not only provided by an author on his work of sub-creation, but also, and mainly, by the dramatis personae themselves within their world.

[ May 21, 2002: Message edited by: Sharku ]

[littlemanpoet]

Thanks, Estelyn, for the great examples. Mount Doom as a dragon. Yes, Nar, I think it gets my vote - er - but I sure do like Chrysophylax - augh! I can't decide. [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

Sharku, thanks for your examples also. I love alliterative verse. It just sparkles - if you like it, I suppose. Some people seem to think that it's over the top. Not me.

At the Forbidden Pool in Henneth Annun:

...the torrent fell, splashing over many terraces, and then, pouring down a steep race, it filled a smooth-hewn channel with a dark force of water flecked with foam, and curling and rushing almost at their feet it plunged sheer over the edge that yawned upon their left....Frodo turned to watch the sleek necks of the water as it curved and dived...white as the teeth of ghosts, the peaks of Ered Nimrais...

I'm actually having difficulty imagining 'white as the teeth of ghosts' for those mountains...

[ May 21, 2002: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]

[Kalessin]

... gritted teeth ...

... an appreciation of this particular aspect of Tolkien's skill as a writer (who should be hailed as that, and should be considered to stand shoulder to shoulder - perhaps head and shoulders above - Steinbeck, Golding, and any other major 20th century author you can think of).

Now, I've already had this argument with just about everyone on these boards, and there you go throwing salt on a livid festering wound [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

The dense and painterly (or photographic) style of description used by Tolkien, with it's narrative undertone (foreboding obviously, or hope - the landscape where Frodo and Sam meet Faramir, for example), seems to me more redolent of 19th century writing than the 20th. Parts of Poe's Masque Of The Red Death, or anything by Joseph Conrad, are in a similar vein. Of modern authors, perhaps JG Ballard has the same visual attentiveness, wrapped around dialogue that is by contrast starkly laconic. The modern trends have been away from grand metaphor and simile, and the opening of literature to a wider cross-cultural audience and authorship has led to a range of equally valid forms, from the colloquial to patois and so on. And a simple economy of narrative certainly has its place (not in my posts here, obviously [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )

A great book? LotR, certainly. Tolkien the best writer of the 20th century? Based on LotR alone, I would say not. Based on his canon, certainly not.

But we've already had that discussion, which was eventually adjudged a somewhat of a "no result" as the protagonists (including yours truly) ground themselves into inextricable entrenchment, like the last great barques of an ancient armada, angular sculptures of black-brown driftwood that seemed to groan silently under the weight of their own failed expectations, and in that melancholy rootless, yet somehow fixed forever in golden sand that bore their wheeling and spiked shadows without complaint, and still glistened at sunrise, like a half-forgotten dream, with the memory of spray and wash, the salmon leap and the dark, burrowing mollusc, preserving a timeless hope in its yielding texture, like the .... erm ... etc. etc. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Apologies for the mischief [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] I think the living dead marshes were more of an atmospheric device than a specific kind of natural phenomenon that can be rationalised within Tolkien's cosmogony. Whilst some precursive elements of Gaia theory may arguably be superimposed on Tolkien's intuitive and poetic sense of the land, the recent philosophical notion of "living earth", with its comprehensive ecological paradigm, is not really inferred. The Tolkienesque kind of allusion can also be found in the work of the poets of the First World War in their reflections of battlefields and the pretty fields of France that became the great graveyards of that war.

Peace [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[littlemanpoet]

Yesssss! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Thank you, Kalessin, for picking up on what I had more or less hoped and intended out of this thread in the first place (but expanded it for a wider discussing audience).

Actually, I think you must have read a pre-edited form of this post, since I think I decided to chuck all that in order to get the wider audience. Hmmm. Anyway:

And now for it:

Yes, I am aware that Tolkien's style is, as you say, not modern as in Steinbeck and the others. In theme, however, I think he is forgotten in error. He is thoroughly modern in what the story is all about. I will not go into a laundry list of themes and expose myself to either extreme of (1) "you forgot the theme of -fill in the blank-", or (2) "the story is simply about itself". As you pointed out, he shares World War One experience with others - I would go so far as to say "modern war" experience. As I have said before, this book could not have been written in any century other than when it was, and of course, Tolkien being a lover of language among other things, HIS story is unlike Steinbeck and most of the other 20th century greats in that it is (out on a limb here) not self-consciously written in order to be published for the writer to be recognized as a relevant author. Rather, it is written foremost because Tolkien loved telling stories. I may have garbled that badly.

[littlemanpoet]

It would seem I need to try again, and for a bit more clarity this time.

I hope, Kalessin, to mark off, with your cooperation (and others who care to join this little dicussion):

1) aspects in which Tolkien may be adjudged inferior, as a writer, to the 20th century greats;
2) aspects in which Tolkien may be adjudged superior, as a writer, to the 20th century greats; and
3) aspects in which Tolkien may be adjudged to be marking out new territory and therefore not comparable to the 20th century greats, while still worth considering among the 20th century greats.
This will require outlining a basically agreeable list of 20th century greats, writing in English.

And before we get any further with this, I propose that we move this particular discussion to the Any Valid Criticisms thread and leave this one to pursue an appreciation of Tolkien's description. To that end I will quote this post on that thread. See you there, I hope.

[littlemanpoet]

Back to the appreciations. From Journey to the Crossroads:

Suddenly, caught by the level beams, Frodo saw the old king's head: it was lying rolled away by the roadside. 'Look, Sam!' he cried, startled into speech. 'Look! The king has got a crown again!' The eyes were hollow and the carven bears was broken, but abou the high stern forehead there was a coronal of silver and gold. A trailing plant with flowers like small white stars had bound itself across the brows as if in reverence for the fallen king, and in the crevices of his stony hair yellow stonecrop gleamed. 'They cannot conquer for ever!' said Frodo. And then suddenly the brief glimpse was gone. The Sun dipped and vanished, and as if at the shuttering of a lamp, black night fell.

This isn't personification. It almost feels like authorial intrusion into the story. What are the chances of such a growth occuring? The odds seem against it. Unless mythic Middle Earth, having a life of its own, caused this to be. Or was it Yavanna? but no, the Valar have withdrawn long ago. Elves are rumored to have lived in Ithilien long ago, but no more. There seems to be a virute in the land and flora and fauna itself, of light and joy-giving, and the beauty and vividness and treasure that this is is made all the more poignant by its snuffing out by the "falling" of black night, a night that tastes like Sauron. And Frodo's words feel ironic at best. Hmm, 20th century irony in Tolkien's unique style? hmm. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

"Sun" is capitalized. I hadn't noticed that before. Does Tolkien always capitalize it?

[Kalessin]

Hmmm [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

1) aspects in which Tolkien may be adjudged inferior, as a writer, to the 20th century greats;
2) aspects in which Tolkien may be adjudged superior, as a writer, to the 20th century greats; and
3) aspects in which Tolkien may be adjudged to be marking out new territory and therefore not comparable to the 20th century greats, while still worth considering among the 20th century greats.
This will require outlining a basically agreeable list of 20th century greats, writing in English.

I'm not necessarily keen on listing the ways in which Tolkien is "inferior" to any other writers. Apart from the inevitable antagonism that results, it's perhaps an unfair exercise. He finished two complete books (one ostensibly a short-ish children's story) and a handful of short stories. The rest of his works come to us edited and even addended through the efforts of his son, and arise from the tremendous public interest and demand. It would be harsh to judge a canon of significantly unfinished drafts and notes against a lifetime of published works by, say, Orwell, Steinbeck, Conrad, Hemingway, Lawrence etc.

Perhaps the more interesting comparison - and one I made in another thread - is between Lord of the Rings - as in some ways the 'epiphany' of Tolkien's writing career : one work that, completed and published, contained itself all those elements that exemplify his creative vision, and all the elements that can explain his standing and popularity - and, for example, Ulysses by James Joyce, which is arguably the same kind of single cathartic tour de force, unmatched by his other works before or since.

These "one-hit wonders" of the 20th century (I'm not being crass, just trying to put a framework on this kind of analysis), might include LotR, Ulysses, Catch 22, Catcher In The Rye, Lolita, Invisible Man, On The Road, Brave New World, Native Son, Under The Volcano, The Little Prince etc. etc. .

My view would be that Tolkien's Lord of the Rings is certainly one of the great books of the 20th century. That's not exactly the same as saying Tolkien is one of the best writers of the century, because of the reasons I gave above. The Silmarillion, unfinished as it is, is 'a different animal' altogether - and if it had originally been published instead of LotR, most of us might never have heard of Tolkien 50 years later [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

I don't want to go into reasons, because in the end oppositional arguments will inevitably deconstruct each other and themselves (and result in : Kalessin vs Aiwendil III [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) because of the subjectivity of language and interpretation. Simply saying "Tolkien is the best because of his wonderful use of tergivisation", or "Chapter One of the Silmarillion is the best thing ever because I like it more than everything else I've ever read", or "well, to me, Tolkien writes non-fiction ... every word is true" ( [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] ), may not actually lead us to any satisfactory conclusions. I suppose it also depends upon whether people are willing to change their views!

But, I guess, I'm always interested in what people think. And "high-falutin' literary chat" is good for my snobbish self-esteem [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Over to you ...

Peace [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ May 23, 2002: Message edited by: Kalessin ]

[littlemanpoet]

I'm not as well read as I ought to be. Of the books you listed, I haven't read one. Therefore, my opinions would be based largely in ignorance. Sorry to disappoint. Although I have read Orwell, Hemingway and Steinbeck - also Fitzgerald. As far as my opinion counts, therefore, I would have to agree with your summation that Tolkien's LotR is one of the great books of the 20th century, and leave whether he is one of the best for more informed minds.

I guess my main contention is that Tolkien deserves recognition as a serious and profound 20th century author whose thought partakes of the three main currents in Western culture: Germanic (broadly speaking) cultural base; Greek-inherited rational/scientific/knowledge gathering process; and Judeo-Christian cosmological/moral framework. Tolkien does better with this than many other 20th century authors because he had a full grasp of all three and embraced them, while his counterparts tended to wrestle against and reject at least one of the three. Thus, LotR is, for the 20th century, a fresh embodiment of all three currents which satisfies the soul of some 20th/21st century Westerns. It achieves this by partaking of myth and story instead of setting up one more rational house-of-cards thesis, only to be blown over by the next antithesis.

The majority of 20th century greats rejected Christianity as it had been received by them. There were some who preferred to reject Greek inherited rational processes, resulting in varities of rank subjectivism.
Others rejected the Germanic base along with Christianity, resulting in the vagueries as the New Age movement.

You know, this could become a book, I'm thinking. And it certainly needs some clarification and research. Hmmmm...

[Kalessin]

Thanks for clarifying where you are coming from ...

... the three main currents in Western culture: Germanic (broadly speaking) cultural base; Greek-inherited rational/scientific/knowledge gathering process; and Judeo-Christian cosmological/moral framework. Tolkien does better with this than many other 20th century authors because he had a full grasp of all three and embraced them, while his counterparts tended to wrestle against and reject at least one of the three.

I'm not sure the "does better" argument follows. He certainly had one particular grasp of concepts, but to suggest either that he had a 'full grasp' and did not wrestle with or reject aspects of any of them, or that this is somehow a guarantee of quality, cannot be taken as read.

For example, the Western philosophical (and later scientific) tradition, as history has shown, has in fact presented Christianity with its greatest challenge from medieval times onwards. Tolkien's work does not seem to me to take account of later philosophical or scientific elements - it seems more of a nostalgic retrenchment in myth as a vessel for arguably 'timeless' truths. And to instil - or perhaps assume - some level of traditional Christian sensibility.

In this context, Albert Camus' The Outsider, or the works of Sartre, are arguably far more in tune with Western philosophy as it had come to be by Tolkien's time.

Your reference points also seem to exclude (or preclude) cultural sources other than traditional Western as an indication of merit. What about Isabell Allende, Gabriel Garcia Marquez, Indian writers (or even Westernised Asians like Salman Rushdie), or VS Naipaul (from the Caribbean), winner of last year's Nobel Prize for Literature?

In addition, I wonder why 'embracing' cultural traditions is somehow better than 'rejecting' them. Surely part of what great art can be about is the changing of perceptions, breaking the mould, and so on. For example, Black American authors of the 20th century did just that, along with gay and feminist artists, and so on.

Trying to find reasons why Tolkien is better than everyone else is, I think, a problematic and ultimately impossible task. But even the act of placing Tolkien is the context of world literature in the 20th century is highly challenging ... there is so much to consider!

Still, go for it if you want to [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] ... and get reading - there are thousands of truly wonderful and potentially life-changing 20th century books out there.

Peace [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ May 29, 2002: Message edited by: Kalessin ]

[littlemanpoet]

As I said on another thread, Kalessin, I wonder if you tend to believe that since something is recent it is therefore better? I doubt that you would assert any such thing, but could it be that such thinking forms a paradigmatic background for your assertions?

Tolkien's work is Western, and the era in which he wrote had not yet seen the onset of world literature; therefore, it may be necessary to think in terms of pre-global comparisons precisely because that is Tolkien's context.

As I have said already, I don't consider it important to assert that Tolkien was greater than other pre-global 20th century authors. Rather, critics and readership would do well to appreciate Tolkien's achievements for what they are. Since his writing is Western, these three strands were his milieu, as they were for all other pre-global Western writers. In that context, Tolkien seems to me to be more at home with all three strands (aka Germanic, Christian, and Greek); it has come to my attention that there is a fourth strand, the Celtic, which may have something to do with this at-homeness.

Tolkien's work takes no account of the things you mention because he 1) (obviously) wrote before those things had necessarily come to be; 2) was instead interested in telling a great story instead of getting caught up in debates and struggles he had already resolved for himself; 3) considered (I wager) some of the things you describe as late developments to be the kind of thing that he would call a new form of old evils, such as the Machine age and relativism. What philosophical and scientific elements do you refer to?