Gandolf? Inquiring nerds need to know. - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lush · 05-21-2002, 09:51 PM

It was a slow night at work today, and I was leafing through my Norton Anthology of Poetry when I came across Robert Browning's poem, "The Bishop Orders His Tomb at Saint Praxed's Church." I have lost too many brain cells while partying in recent days to fully comprehend the poem, but one name, repeated throughout, made me take notice, the name Gandolf. Now, you may think me perfectly weird, but is this where Tolkien got his inspiration to name our favorite Grey/White Wizard?

Child of the 7th Age · 05-22-2002, 09:43 AM

Lush -- That was observent of you to notice this. I've heard of the poem but am not that familiar with it. If your brain has cleared from the party (mine hasn't), do you have a line or two? Was it the bishop's name?

I did check out what Shippey says in The Road to Middle Earth. This is the book I use when I want to understand where a word or name comes from. Like Tolkien, Shippey was a philologist. So here goes more than you probably every wanted to know!

Shippey says Tolkien often made names in the Hobbit by taking a common thing and capitalizing it to turn it into a person or place, e.g., The Hill or Bywater where Bilbo lives. He does this not only with English but words from various languages. Shippey says Beorn, Gollum,Gandalf, and the Necromancer are all descriptions of persons rather than actual names.

The name "Gandalfr" appears in the Icelandic text Dvergatal (don't ask me what that is!)in a listing of dwarves. The names Thrainn, Thorinn, and Thror also appear, and Tolkien ended up using those. Anyways, Shippey says Tolkien was suspicious about "Gandalfr" because -alfr was an Elvish ending.

So he undoubtedly went to the ancient Icelandic dictionary and discovered "gandr" means "an object used by a sorcerer" and "gandalfr" means wizard. Then he decided to use it as a descriptive name.

Tolkien also knew that, in ancient lore, the most common object used by a wizard was a staff. This is why, when Bilbo first saw Gandalf in the Hobbit, he describes him only as "an old man with a staff".

Even though this is pretty complicated, Shippey usually knows what he is talking about, since he understands Tolkien as a philologist. Does anything from your poem tie into the meaning of these same words?
sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[ May 22, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[ May 22, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

Nufaciel · 05-22-2002, 10:15 AM

Hey, did you also know that Gandalf was originally the name of Thorin in the Hobbit until Tolkien gave it to the wizard?

***Sharkû*** · 05-22-2002, 10:20 AM

It's actually all in Unfinished Tales.

"Mostly he journeyed unwearingly on foot, leaning on a staff; and so he was called among Men of the North Gandalf, “the Elf of the Wand”. For they deemed him (though in error, as has been said) to be of Elven-kind, since he would at times works wonders among them, loving especially the beauty of fire; "

In Chris's annotations:

"Gandalf is a substitution in the English narrative on the same lines as the treatment of Hobbit and Dwarf names. It is an actual Norse name (found applied to a Dwarf in Völuspá) 12 used by me since it appears to contain gandr, a staff, especially one used in "magic," and might be supposed to mean "Elvish wight with a (magic) staff." Gandalf was not an Elf, but would be by Men associated with them, since his alliance and friendship wit Elves was well-known. Since the name is attributed to "the North" in general, Gandalf must be supposed to represent a Westron name but one made up of elements not derived from Elvish tongues."

Lush · 05-22-2002, 10:39 AM

Well guys, thanks for your replies. This is all very interesting, but I still think there might be a connection between Robert Browning's poem, and Tolkien's final decision to use the name "Gandalf." HERE is the actual poem. It's actually sort of creepy, in that fun, British way. Even if it has absolutely no relation to Tolkien, I still think it's a nifty coincidence.

Lush · 05-22-2002, 10:44 AM

Oh, and before I go, HERE is a cool interpretation of the poem. Indeed, it has nothing to do with wizards. But I will always have this nagging feeling now...Maybe after I'm done with all my, uh, fun activities, and regain some sense of reason, I should try to connect the dots.

piosenniel · 05-22-2002, 11:19 AM

As I recall this poem, it is about a Bishop on his deathbed who is more concerned with the grandeur and beauty of his material posessions (including his wife?/mother of his children)than he is about the state of his soul.

He talks about the envy a rival Bishop - Gandolf has for all the things which he has accrued.

I know that Gandolfo, Gondolfo is a fairly commnon Italian name. And I know that Browning made Italian references in his poetry. Gandolf would be the anglicized version of an Italian name, such a name being entirely appropriate for a bishop.

I think that the Gandalf/Gandolf coneection is probably only an interesting coincidenc.

Kalimac · 05-22-2002, 08:38 PM

Lush, I like you more and more [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]. I love that Browning poem, "Old Gandolf with his paltry onion stone / Put me where I may look at him!" but had always assumed it was some sort of weird coincidence. Nothing that I've read of Browning suggests that he was into Icelandic sagas; medievalism was his line if anything. I think what we have here is a missing link - it seems unlikely that Browning would have read the same original sources as Tolkien, but he may have read a medieval or Renaissance-era story/poem/work of literature of some sort which contained the name Gandalf/Gandolf and just taken it from there, or as piosenniel says may have gotten it from the Italian (where they got it from is another question); maybe one of those situations where you're writing, the name just bobs up in your head and you put it down, only afterwards realizing where exactly it came from.

I say this because the connections between the old meaning and the character in the poem seem pretty tenuous at best. Gandolf in the poem is a deceased former Bishop who may or may not have envied the narrator of the poem all of his possessions and earthly delights - hard to say since the narrator is obviously a little biased. Bishops carry crooks/staffs, and you could tie that in with the old meaning if you like. It would be neat if that were the case, but I'm more inclined to lean towards the coincidence/got it from somewhere else theory. Browning just doesn't seem like a Saga-oriented kind of guy.

[ May 22, 2002: Message edited by: Kalimac ]

Lindolirian · 05-22-2002, 08:43 PM

I always thought that Tolkien got Gandalf from the Finnish word gandaalf which means sorcerer elf... o wel that is an interesting observation though.

Lush · 05-25-2002, 04:11 PM

Ha, I just created this topic in order to show off how well-read and educated I am! (Or, you can take this as showing off the fact that I am a pathetic little bookworm) [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

05-21-2002, 09:51 PM	#1
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,803	Gandolf? Inquiring nerds need to know. It was a slow night at work today, and I was leafing through my Norton Anthology of Poetry when I came across Robert Browning's poem, "The Bishop Orders His Tomb at Saint Praxed's Church." I have lost too many brain cells while partying in recent days to fully comprehend the poem, but one name, repeated throughout, made me take notice, the name Gandolf. Now, you may think me perfectly weird, but is this where Tolkien got his inspiration to name our favorite Grey/White Wizard? __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

05-22-2002, 09:43 AM	#2
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,135	Lush -- That was observent of you to notice this. I've heard of the poem but am not that familiar with it. If your brain has cleared from the party (mine hasn't), do you have a line or two? Was it the bishop's name? I did check out what Shippey says in The Road to Middle Earth. This is the book I use when I want to understand where a word or name comes from. Like Tolkien, Shippey was a philologist. So here goes more than you probably every wanted to know! Shippey says Tolkien often made names in the Hobbit by taking a common thing and capitalizing it to turn it into a person or place, e.g., The Hill or Bywater where Bilbo lives. He does this not only with English but words from various languages. Shippey says Beorn, Gollum,Gandalf, and the Necromancer are all descriptions of persons rather than actual names. The name "Gandalfr" appears in the Icelandic text Dvergatal (don't ask me what that is!)in a listing of dwarves. The names Thrainn, Thorinn, and Thror also appear, and Tolkien ended up using those. Anyways, Shippey says Tolkien was suspicious about "Gandalfr" because -alfr was an Elvish ending. So he undoubtedly went to the ancient Icelandic dictionary and discovered "gandr" means "an object used by a sorcerer" and "gandalfr" means wizard. Then he decided to use it as a descriptive name. Tolkien also knew that, in ancient lore, the most common object used by a wizard was a staff. This is why, when Bilbo first saw Gandalf in the Hobbit, he describes him only as "an old man with a staff". Even though this is pretty complicated, Shippey usually knows what he is talking about, since he understands Tolkien as a philologist. Does anything from your poem tie into the meaning of these same words? sharon, the 7th age hobbit [ May 22, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ] [ May 22, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ] __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.

05-22-2002, 10:15 AM	#3
Nufaciel Wight Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 133	Hey, did you also know that Gandalf was originally the name of Thorin in the Hobbit until Tolkien gave it to the wizard? __________________ Member of Pervy Elf Fanciers Anonymous...I need professional help.

05-22-2002, 10:39 AM	#5
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,803	Well guys, thanks for your replies. This is all very interesting, but I still think there might be a connection between Robert Browning's poem, and Tolkien's final decision to use the name "Gandalf." HERE is the actual poem. It's actually sort of creepy, in that fun, British way. Even if it has absolutely no relation to Tolkien, I still think it's a nifty coincidence. __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

05-22-2002, 10:44 AM	#6
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,803	Oh, and before I go, HERE is a cool interpretation of the poem. Indeed, it has nothing to do with wizards. But I will always have this nagging feeling now...Maybe after I'm done with all my, uh, fun activities, and regain some sense of reason, I should try to connect the dots. __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

05-22-2002, 10:20 AM	#4
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,721	It's actually all in Unfinished Tales. "Mostly he journeyed unwearingly on foot, leaning on a staff; and so he was called among Men of the North Gandalf, “the Elf of the Wand”. For they deemed him (though in error, as has been said) to be of Elven-kind, since he would at times works wonders among them, loving especially the beauty of fire; " In Chris's annotations: "Gandalf is a substitution in the English narrative on the same lines as the treatment of Hobbit and Dwarf names. It is an actual Norse name (found applied to a Dwarf in Völuspá) 12 used by me since it appears to contain gandr, a staff, especially one used in "magic," and might be supposed to mean "Elvish wight with a (magic) staff." Gandalf was not an Elf, but would be by Men associated with them, since his alliance and friendship wit Elves was well-known. Since the name is attributed to "the North" in general, Gandalf must be supposed to represent a Westron name but one made up of elements not derived from Elvish tongues."

05-22-2002, 11:19 AM	#7
piosenniel Desultory Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat..... Posts: 7,816	As I recall this poem, it is about a Bishop on his deathbed who is more concerned with the grandeur and beauty of his material posessions (including his wife?/mother of his children)than he is about the state of his soul. He talks about the envy a rival Bishop - Gandolf has for all the things which he has accrued. I know that Gandolfo, Gondolfo is a fairly commnon Italian name. And I know that Browning made Italian references in his poetry. Gandolf would be the anglicized version of an Italian name, such a name being entirely appropriate for a bishop. I think that the Gandalf/Gandolf coneection is probably only an interesting coincidenc. __________________ Eldest, that’s what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

05-22-2002, 08:38 PM	#8
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	Lush, I like you more and more [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]. I love that Browning poem, "Old Gandolf with his paltry onion stone / Put me where I may look at him!" but had always assumed it was some sort of weird coincidence. Nothing that I've read of Browning suggests that he was into Icelandic sagas; medievalism was his line if anything. I think what we have here is a missing link - it seems unlikely that Browning would have read the same original sources as Tolkien, but he may have read a medieval or Renaissance-era story/poem/work of literature of some sort which contained the name Gandalf/Gandolf and just taken it from there, or as piosenniel says may have gotten it from the Italian (where they got it from is another question); maybe one of those situations where you're writing, the name just bobs up in your head and you put it down, only afterwards realizing where exactly it came from. I say this because the connections between the old meaning and the character in the poem seem pretty tenuous at best. Gandolf in the poem is a deceased former Bishop who may or may not have envied the narrator of the poem all of his possessions and earthly delights - hard to say since the narrator is obviously a little biased. Bishops carry crooks/staffs, and you could tie that in with the old meaning if you like. It would be neat if that were the case, but I'm more inclined to lean towards the coincidence/got it from somewhere else theory. Browning just doesn't seem like a Saga-oriented kind of guy. [ May 22, 2002: Message edited by: Kalimac ] __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

05-22-2002, 08:43 PM	#9
Lindolirian World's Tallest Hobbit Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Where the view is long Posts: 2,126	I always thought that Tolkien got Gandalf from the Finnish word gandaalf which means sorcerer elf... o wel that is an interesting observation though. __________________ 'They say that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end."

05-25-2002, 04:11 PM	#10
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,803	Ha, I just created this topic in order to show off how well-read and educated I am! (Or, you can take this as showing off the fact that I am a pathetic little bookworm) [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~