Evil in the Fouth Age and Beyond

[piosenniel]

In The Silmarillion, The Hobbit, & the LOTR there is an underlying story of evil incarnate and its defeat. In the Silmarillion, we have the rise of Morgoth and his subsequent removal by the forces of good to the void. In The Hobbit, there is Smaug as the evil being defeated by the forces of good in the guise of hobbit, bird, and man. Finally, in the LOTR, there is Sauron, his rise to power and his ultimate defeat by the Halfing race of men.

I know also there is also mention of a Final Battle at some point in a distant future when the forces of good will once again face Melkor for a do or die battle.

What I'm wondering about is did the mythology that JRRT created for his Middle Earth allow for the rise of another Dark Lord at some time between the defeat of Sauron as the last Dark Lord and the return of Melkor, the ultimate Dark Lord, for the final decisive battle of good and evil?

[ May 22, 2002: Message edited by: piosenniel ]

[Child of the 7th Age]

Piosenniel -- Hi! In both his Letters and The Peoples of Middle-earth, Tolkien says that the third age is the last one "in which evil assumes a single dominant incarnate shape". He also says Sauron was:

the first of many concentrations of Evil into definite power-points that they {i.e. man} would have to combat, as it was also the last of those in "mythological" personalized (but non-human) form

So, according to Tolkien, we'll have a lot of little Sarumans, but no more great Saurons or Morgaths until the last conflict.

There's another thread on this board that relates to this--the one about The New Shadow which was Tolkien's draft pages of a new novel set in the fourth age. This story was going to trace how men quickly became disenchanted with peace and started secret societies practicing "dark cults" plus adolescents with "orc cults." Tolkien made several tries, then abandoned it. He felt the whole history he had developed had come to its true end with the Downfall of Sauron, and anything that came after would be little more than a thriller. So I guess he also "missed" the lack of a central figure of true evil like Morgoth or Sauron.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[ May 23, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[Veritas]

Remeber that after the final battle with Sauron and his forces the elves slowly went to the west, the dwarves retreated into their mountain homes, the hobbits slowly decreased in number (after a babyboom) and the orcs were exterminated by humans. This would leave only humans to do all the good and evil work, and thus Middle-Earth would slowly loose it's grandour. The great good empires like Gondor and Rohan were also on their way back. So, there would be some small lords who you can call good or evil fighting each other, but a story about that would be nothing more than a simple knights' tale, but nothing more.

[ May 23, 2002: Message edited by: Veritas ]

[Kalessin]

Interesting thread ...

He felt the whole history he had developed had come to its true end with the Downfall of Sauron, and anything that came after would be little more than a thriller. So I guess he also "missed" the lack of a central figure of true evil like Morgoth or Sauron.

I think this is a useful and compelling analysis. In his letters Tolkien emphasised the themes of Fall, Mortality and Machine, and the centrality of 'sub-creation' to the narratives - the making of Arda by the Valar collectively, of the races, of the Silmarils by Feanor, of the Orcs by Melkor, and ultimately of the One Ring by Sauron. With the passing into history of the Valar, the Elves, and even the Dwarves, the world of Men (and Hobbits) that remained was, in effect, a world of "relativity". Instead of an eternal threat, even the most destructive of men, denied immortality, will fall in a short time (in Tolkien's terms [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] ).

In addition, Tolkien's recurrent thematic foundation for narrative - the epic sub-creation of Evil (in Melkor) out of apparently perfect Good (Eru), or to a lesser extent the creation of the Silmarils, could not be repeated as myth, but only (as above), as a kind of small-scale morality tale played out by (and among) mortals. Whilst nodoubt a story could be spun, it was as myth that Tolkien attempted to create - with all the archetypal and timeless 'truth' that he felt was applicable to, and inherent in, myth rather than 'fiction'.

And finally, we must remember that apart from LotR, The Hobbit and a few short stories, all the other works of Tolkien were (and are) unfinished - a collection of draft notes, journals, and so on, posthumously organised and addended by his son in response to the huge public demand. We can't really extrapolate what else might have materialised, given that we do not have even a definitive presentation of The Silmarillion. As a notorious "revisionist", Tolkien may well never have thought about progressing beyond The Silmarillion, which (as Christopher Tolkien says) was unlikely ever to have been properly 'finished' in his father's terms.

The voice is silent and therefore the journey does not continue - and where in fantasy literature today is the writer ready or able to follow in those giant footsteps? Judging by previous discussions on BW, he or she has yet to make an appearance!

Peace [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[piosenniel]

Hi! Childofthe7thAge -

In both his Letters and The Peoples of Middle-earth, Tolkien says that the third age is the last one "in which evil assumes a single dominant incarnate shape". He also says Sauron was:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the first of many concentrations of Evil into definite power-points that they {i.e. man} would have to combat, as it was also the last of those in "mythological" personalized (but non-human) form

What if during the Age of Man we consider institutions set up by men which become long term dominant incarnations of evil. Would that fit into the mythology, or extend it? For example the pervasive evil of institutionalized racism. Or the continued evil of unfettered industrialization to deplete the resources and viability of the planet which ultimately sustains us. (please don't consider this a soap box for my personal views; I'm just giving these as examples.)Individual men would come and go, but the Dark Lords of evil would continue, in a way. Could we conser these as central figures of true evil for the Age of Men?

Veritas - could we look at our struggle agains this form of evil as more than a simple knight's tale?

Kalessin -

The voice is silent and therefore the journey does not continue - and where in fantasy literature today is the writer ready or able to follow in those giant footsteps? Judging by previous discussions on BW, he or she has yet to make an appearance!

I agree - the voice is silent, and probably no other voice could tell such a story. But certainly the struggle of men against a greater evil could be unfolded and dealt with as more than just a morality tale for these relative times.

[Veritas]

To be honnest, I haven't written that, it was a friend of me, and he's very known about everything that has to do with Tolkien. But I agree with it, only not really the knights tale. But if there are only human left, wich wars do they have to fight?
It does not have to mean that there not will be great battles, but then, I think, the humen must unite in two Lords, how fight against eachother. The humen have no power to make rings, produce orc, or anything like that.
My conclusion is, if there comes a Final Battle, then a lot has to change after the Third Age, wich includes, uprise from the Dwarves and Hobbits, maybe the Ents show up again, and some Elves must return, to create a whole new 'world' where Good and Evil can show up. But that doesn't mean that Tolkien stopt every change of a Final Battle, only nowone knows...

[Child of the 7th Age]

Pio -- That's a very interesting idea about the institutionalized forms of evil. I definitely think these are among the most pernicious in our own time.

I think these are very real and often horrifying. Another example might be the operation of the Holocaust in the Second World War.

However, at this point, I believe, we have passed beyond mythology (beyond in terms of chronology, not importance), and we have entered the realm of human history. This does not belittle or make small these horrible manifestions. I spent years in graduate school earning a doctorate in history precisely because I believed that much of truth and reality is reflected in the historical eye--just as much else is relected in the mythological framework.

So I think you are right to stress how important such forms of evil are to our day, but I see these as history rather than myth. They are evils standing on their own and scattered through society, rather than being incarnated in a single living being.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[piosenniel]

I think perhaps you are correct. But you know, I long for a large myth to get lost in, to pick up my sword and cloak, and set out toward something. I think I am a Don Quixote at heart!!!!

[Child of the 7th Age]

Pio -- I can certainly understand that. Sometimes I feel we have been locked out of the land of Fairy.

Tolkien has several poems that deal with these frustrations. Take a look at the Adventures of Tom Bombadil which has one poem "Frodo's Dreme", presumably recording Frodo's torment before he sailed for Elvenhome. This character sails to the land of Fairy, presumably the West, but is unable to make contact with the Elves,and sees many things happening which he desn't even understand. Then, when he goes home to the land of man, he can't even explain what he has seen. It is extremely sad, and if Frodo had dreams like these, I can certainly understand that he would need to go West for help!

There's also a poem about a human maid who sees the last ship going West to Elvenhome. The Elves call out for her to join them, but she can not. Her feet sink in the clay and she can not move. So sad!

I think Tolkien himself sometimes felt this frustration of being torn between the land of faerie and the land of reality, and never totally fitting into either. He could, at times, be extremely pessimistic.

So,although we don't have any single figure of incarnate evil in later ages, we certainly have expressions of sadness and the sense of being "not whole."

sharon, the 7th age hobbit