Nermir, Tavari, & etc. - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

piosenniel · 06-03-2002, 03:27 PM

I am just reading the 'Book of Lost Tales I' and came across this description in the coming of the Valar to Valinor:

Quote:

About them fared a great host who are the sprites of trees and woods, of dale and forest and mountain-side, or those that sing amid the grass at morning and chant among the standing corn at eve. These are the Nermir and the Tavari, Nandini and Orossi, brownies, fays, pixies, leprawns, and what else are they not called, for their number is very great: yet they must not be confused with the Eldar, for they were born before the world and are older than its oldest, and are not of it, but laugh at it much, for they had not somewhat to do with its making, so that it is for the most part a play for them; but the Eldar are of the world and love it with a great and burning love, and are wistful in all hteir happiness for that reason.

Are there any other references to these spirits in Tolkien's writings? What/Who was their origin? Do they come to inhabit Middle Earth? Was there any reference to contact between them and the Eldar. Any reference to them in contact with the eldest creatures - Tom Bombadil, the Ents, or anyone outside this reference?

Kuruharan · 06-03-2002, 05:47 PM

Since it's in the Book of Lost Tales, I'd say that those spirits were things that ended up on the editing room floor (so to speak).

At least I can't recall anything like this making it into any of Tolkien's canonical Middle earth works.

[ June 03, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

Orald · 06-03-2002, 06:30 PM

It is a great quote when trying to place a figure like Tom Bombadil or his wife Goldberry. However it is in such an old version that it shouldn't even be considered. And as Kuruharan said, not canonical.

Child of the 7th Age · 06-03-2002, 08:52 PM

Pio --

I remember reading somewhere that there were fantastic creatures of tiny stature briefly referred to in the Book of Lost Tales which Tolkien later rejected completely.

Tolkien came to hate the idea of teeny, tiny fairies and elves. Just look how tall and elegant his own Elves were. In discussing hobbits, he even made a point of saying they could be up to four feet tall and were definitely substantial. He said you could even meet people of that height in the "real world."

Yet, when he was still quite young, Tolkien wrote a poem about "goblin feet" which alludes to tiny padding feet. Later, he said he wished he had never written that poem because it kept popping up everywhere in later years. (The poem appears in the Annotated Hobbit)

Tolkien felt that, in their origin, these magical beings had been conceived as large and powerful and immortal, much like his own Elves. According to legend, the pre-human Irish race of immortals, the Tuatha de Danann withdrew from Ireland to sale West as the mortals arrived and settled on the island. (There is some indication that the Tuatha may have been based on an actual historical people -- we aren't sure.) This sounds a lot like Tolkien's Elves.

Tolkien felt it was only later, as people grew distant from the ancient legends, that they conceived these beings as more like tiny fairies. And in his stories, he explains their smaller size by the diminishing which took place after the beginning of the Age of the dominance of man.

So I think these beings belonged to an earlier time in his thinking and he wouldn't have felt comfortable with them at a later date.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

piosenniel · 06-05-2002, 12:25 AM

Thank you for your replies.

One further question, since I've just started reading beyond The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings Trilogy, & The Silmarillion, I have heard the term canonical used in discussions here previously, but I'm unclear exactly what that includes.

06-03-2002, 05:47 PM	#2
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,685	Since it's in the Book of Lost Tales, I'd say that those spirits were things that ended up on the editing room floor (so to speak). At least I can't recall anything like this making it into any of Tolkien's canonical Middle earth works. [ June 03, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ] __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

06-03-2002, 08:52 PM	#4
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,135	Pio -- I remember reading somewhere that there were fantastic creatures of tiny stature briefly referred to in the Book of Lost Tales which Tolkien later rejected completely. Tolkien came to hate the idea of teeny, tiny fairies and elves. Just look how tall and elegant his own Elves were. In discussing hobbits, he even made a point of saying they could be up to four feet tall and were definitely substantial. He said you could even meet people of that height in the "real world." Yet, when he was still quite young, Tolkien wrote a poem about "goblin feet" which alludes to tiny padding feet. Later, he said he wished he had never written that poem because it kept popping up everywhere in later years. (The poem appears in the Annotated Hobbit) Tolkien felt that, in their origin, these magical beings had been conceived as large and powerful and immortal, much like his own Elves. According to legend, the pre-human Irish race of immortals, the Tuatha de Danann withdrew from Ireland to sale West as the mortals arrived and settled on the island. (There is some indication that the Tuatha may have been based on an actual historical people -- we aren't sure.) This sounds a lot like Tolkien's Elves. Tolkien felt it was only later, as people grew distant from the ancient legends, that they conceived these beings as more like tiny fairies. And in his stories, he explains their smaller size by the diminishing which took place after the beginning of the Age of the dominance of man. So I think these beings belonged to an earlier time in his thinking and he wouldn't have felt comfortable with them at a later date. sharon, the 7th age hobbit __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.

06-05-2002, 12:25 AM	#5
piosenniel Desultory Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat..... Posts: 7,816	Thank you for your replies. One further question, since I've just started reading beyond The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings Trilogy, & The Silmarillion, I have heard the term canonical used in discussions here previously, but I'm unclear exactly what that includes. __________________ Eldest, that’s what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

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06-03-2002, 06:30 PM	#3
Orald Shadow of Malice Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: right behind you Posts: 843	It is a great quote when trying to place a figure like Tom Bombadil or his wife Goldberry. However it is in such an old version that it shouldn't even be considered. And as Kuruharan said, not canonical.