Númenor's Legacy

[Maédhros]

What do you think is the greater legacy that the Island of Númenor had in ME.
Was it it's Culture or the ancient blood line of Elros?

[Amarinth]

another great topic AND glad to make the first reply, maedhros! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

hmmm, i don't know about you guys, but numenore was a bit hazy for me, hazy enough to preclude any decent pretense of knowledge as far as its culture is concerned [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] . some aspects of the life of the nobility summarily gleaned from UT brings to mind aragorn's upbringing in the household of elrond, but that was it! of course, numenore's derivative culture must have been crucial to the establishment and sustenance of the numenorean kingdoms in ME and the perpetration of the line of elros, but like you i think i'll wait for enlightenment from
other sources [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

To my mind, no single lineage can outweigh the importance of the culture from which it sprang. In my opinion, Numenor's most important legacies are the common history that it provides for Elves and Men; its literature, which records a great deal of useful information that would otherwise be forgotten, and its technology, which proves so valuable in countering the common enemy.
I also see the fall of Numenor as a salutory lesson in humility to any society, which is never a bad thing to have.

[ May 31, 2002: Message edited by: Squatter of Amon Rudh ]

[Kuruharan]

Ohmygosh! Squatter, how've you been? It's been a while.

Numenor's most important legacies are the common history that it provides for Elves and Men; its literature, which records a great deal of useful information that would otherwise be forgotten, and its technology, which proves so valuable in countering the common enemy.

I realize that this is going to sound a bit far fetched, but bear with me.

The original source of this knowledge and technology, the Elves, had not entirely vanished by the time of the Downfall of Numenor. I think that if the Elves had been reduced to desperate enough straits they would have aided the lesser men in their development, just as they had the Edain. Of course the fundamental problem with this is lack of time, but I think that some degree of cultural transference would have taken place.

I also see the fall of Numenor as a salutory lesson in humility to any society, which is never a bad thing to have.

Unfortunately, humanity has an exasperating ability to ignore such lessons whenever it wants something that could ultimately be destructive.

[Maédhros]

In a sense, I think it's impossible to separate the two aspects. First you have the "survivors" of Númenor (faithful) come to ME and preserve and spread their culture of love to the Valar and elvish things, language, etc.
But is their lineage Elros - Arathorn, etc., more important that the lessons and frame of mind that their astonishing long lives.
If I would have to choose, i would choose their cultural contributions more than their blood.

[Genandra of Mirkwood]

Hi guys- Squatter that's a good point about Numenor tying together elven and human cultures.

Your original question was an either/or but I think one springs from another. The culture of Numenor was great because of Elros and the other Faithful who took both from the elves and, indirectly, from the Valar the lessons that never quite made it to the rest of humanity.

What really struck me about the account of the fall of Numenor was the central place of worship (and lack thereof) of Eru. That was not something that had come up, that I can recall, even in the various elvish rebellions and grumblings. It seems like Tolkien was implying that humans had a special responsibility to remember Eru and they blew it. "The Faithful" being those who remembered and stayed true to the proper order of things, remembering their own place in the created universe. They carry through their role as a faithful remnant when they serve the rest of ME as rangers. Is this perhaps Numenor's greatest legacy, both the larger failing and the deliverance and faithfulness of a few? What do you all think?

[Maédhros]

They carry through their role as a faithful remnant when they serve the rest of ME as rangers. Is this perhaps Numenor's greatest legacy, both the larger failing and the deliverance and faithfulness of a few? What do you all think?

I think that you have a valid point.

What really struck me about the account of the fall of Numenor was the central place of worship (and lack thereof) of Eru. That was not something that had come up, that I can recall, even in the various elvish rebellions and grumblings.

And Maedhros answered: 'But how shall our voices reach to Ilúvatar beyond the Circles of the World? And by Ilúvatar we swore in our madness, and called the Everlasting Darkness upon us, if we kept not our word. Who shall release us?'

Even after the Noldorian revolt, they still held Eru in his proper place. Great point indeed.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Ohmygosh! Squatter, how've you been? It's been a while.

Not too bad. I've been quite busy recently, so I haven't been looking in as often as I'd like. It's nice to know I was missed; thanks.

The original source of this knowledge and technology, the Elves, had not entirely vanished by the time of the Downfall of Numenor. I think that if the Elves had been reduced to desperate enough straits they would have aided the lesser men in their development, just as they had the Edain. Of course the fundamental problem with this is lack of time, but I think that some degree of cultural transference would have taken place.

Doesn't sound far-fetched to me. However, Men being Men, information coming from a human is more likely to be heeded, especially if it was written a long time ago.

Of course people do forget lessons in humility, but that doesn't make them any less valuable, just repetitious. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]