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Old 11-24-2009, 06:47 PM   #2001
Mnemosyne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogrod View Post
Hehe... I love you Mnemo!
Does this mean you'll go to bed now and get a healthy amount of sleep in you, just because I'm asking nicely?

There's nothing like a healthy dose of racism to keep the pot stirring... after all, the kitchens seemed pretty quiet last time I checked. Why should we have all the fun to ourselves? :evil:
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Old 11-24-2009, 07:12 PM   #2002
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Originally Posted by Mnemosyne View Post
Does this mean you'll go to bed now and get a healthy amount of sleep in you, just because I'm asking nicely?
Maybe...well definitively... and it's only about 3AM (and I have classes only at 12...)

Thornden might break up the suspense, or Coen, or anyone of the previous Mead Hall just taking initiative and pulling Lithor (and Crabannan) out from the spotlight.

I'm going to sleep now and leave it to you.

And any others might post for their reactions anyway even if not willing to break the deadlock...
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Old 11-24-2009, 07:20 PM   #2003
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Well, this IS fun. I haven't enjoyed myself this much in RPG-land since I got to write the part of the vampire in the Treachery of Men. All those murders...
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Old 11-24-2009, 09:28 PM   #2004
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Holy smokes, I leave for half a day and when I get back, I find the discussion thread in such an uproar that I hardly have enough courage to go read the game thread!!!!!!!!

Courage found, off I go!

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Old 11-24-2009, 09:37 PM   #2005
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Oh my goodness. Oh. My. Goodness.

......

..............

......................

Gotta go finish reading. Still have two more posts by Gwathagor to read.
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Old 11-24-2009, 09:55 PM   #2006
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You do realize, Nogrod (and everyone, for that matter), that all this was in jest? To my eye, Groin writing for Lithor meant Lithor to mean no harm, or at least little harm. But the way that other writer's appeared to take it and have their characters take it goes to show that even a jest may be taken terribly, terribly wrong.

That being said, the game has progressed. The joke has not been taken well, tempers are rising, and it appears that Lithor is in very deep trouble quite on accident.

I will try to post for Thornden tonight. I kind of wish we could have Groin post next, but now that Crabannan has interrupted, I think it would be appropriate for Thornden to try to say something.

Harping back on what you said earlier Nogrod:

Quote:
After his own 12-year old daughter was beaten by the local "mob", lord Athanar is not in a mood to be easy or understanding with the locals any more if there is such a foolery... From his POV he was already too soft in letting the fate of his daughter to go unpunished - and he did that to show he can give in so that the locals would also give in, in turn.
Was he really going to let it go? I had thought he just didn't do or say anything yet because the banquet had to happen. Well, well. Javan turns lucky once more...unless Athanar changes his mind.

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Old 11-24-2009, 10:04 PM   #2007
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I would recommend that even if Athanar lets Javan go, so to speak, that one of the original Mead Hallers devises a suitable punishment. Perhaps specifically Saeryn.
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Old 11-24-2009, 10:25 PM   #2008
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From my end, I know what Groin meant as Lithor... but I'm not Wynflaed, and her perception has been colored by what her husband just said. But taking things out of context and overreacting is fun.

As far as I can tell we're not looking into the matter of punishing Javan (we still don't even know who did it, yet) until after the banquet is over and we can make some discreet inquiries. And even then Wynflaed is going to want to hear the other side of the story, both because that's good policy and because she knows that these sorts of things don't happen without provocation.
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Old 11-24-2009, 10:38 PM   #2009
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I would recommend that even if Athanar lets Javan go, so to speak, that one of the original Mead Hallers devises a suitable punishment. Perhaps specifically Saeryn.
What would be a suitable punishment? I don't really know. My younger brother has never hit a girl before, and Javan's been mostly fashioned after him in a lot of cases.

Mnemosyne (I almost caleld you Wynflaed), I'm glad she wants to hear the other side of the story. Aedre really didn't do a good job of telling a very unbiased tale.

I posted for Thornden. Let's hope he succeeds in his plans to cool tempers and avert instantaneous death....I mean, arrest. Up until this moment, I don't think I quite realized that Thornden was a pacifier. Hm.

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Old 11-24-2009, 10:38 PM   #2010
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Oh good heavens... I just wrote a post in which Degas... feels... sorry - gasp - for Athanar.

You know, I really didn't see that coming, but then I realized that the two characters are really foils for each other. Both are lords walking into a horrible mess that requires shows of power/diplomacy/etc and constant attention in order to regain stability, but Degas did it by showing his people that he is one of them, whereas Athanar seems hellbent on proving that he is their superior.

Degas's theory is that his people are already perfectly well aware of his title. The question is getting them to listen because they want to, not because they must.

So while he's massively irritated that Athanar doesn't seem to understand/care about tact, he's also totally on the guy's side when it comes to dealing swiftly with soldiers/commoners who appear to disrespect authority.

Hence him watching Lithor and Crabannan with what amounts to a bit of disinterest whilst others react with shock.

I'm actually quite certain Degas would like Athanar a lot if they could just work out Saeryn's future in an acceptable manner.

Ahem.

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Old 11-24-2009, 10:44 PM   #2011
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What would be a suitable punishment? I don't really know. My younger brother has never hit a girl before, and Javan's been mostly fashioned after him in a lot of cases.
Hm... I'm trying to remember what happened the one time my brother hit me. *strains memory* I told my mom. Who told my dad. And then... I think I didn't have the guts to stick around and view his punishment. Which explains why I don't remember what happened.

I'm not thinking corporal punishment. I'm thinking more like... he can work off his offense. Perhaps this could be something that Wynflaed and Saeryn come together to work out? I was thinking perhaps Javan might be made to do tasks for Wynflaed's maid or something for a while. Sort of an assistant. So that through it he comes to know the ladies of the household?

Or not. Random thoughts, and I'm tired and don't feel good, so my random thoughts might actually be terrible, and I wouldn't even know it.
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Old 11-24-2009, 11:07 PM   #2012
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If being a semi-active writer again will permit me the insolence, I'd like to nitpick with the Mead Hall writers generally about a little spelling...

Namely:

"Court Marshal" is not what you think it is. A marshal is a person, and therefore a noun, and therefore, if combined with "court", it must be "the marshal of the court." Well, we all know that Marshals in Rohan are military officers, of the highest rank. Whomever Athanar served before coming to Scarburg, you can bet the Marshal of the Edoras Muster was one.

See... what you mean is "Court Martial"--with "court" as the noun, modified by the adjective "martial"--which you will remember from such phrases as "martial arts" or "martial law"--that is to say, "martial" could be considered to modify a noun such that it now has specific reference to war matters (being a related to the name "Mars"--the Roman god of war). As a soldier, Lithor would be Court Martialled, because he will be tried under martial law--the law that would hold in times of war, when soldiers order justice.

Personally.... I'm not entirely convinced that the Rohirrim of the early 4th Age would have had different judicial systems for commoner and soldier, because I don't think they had a "military" or "standing army" as such. Soldiers, yes--men directly in the employ of the King or Lord to serve martial duty, but I don't think that this would have meant a different relationship to the law than a common Eorling, who, after all, if able to serve and ride would be eligible to be raised in muster during time of war.

However, my personal quibbles about judicial matters aside, if you mean that Lithor will be tried as a soldier in a soldier's court, that court is a Court-Martial. Which is not the say that Elfwine, Erkenbrand, or whomever the Marshal of the Edoras Muster currently is, could not preside in such a court--indeed, I'd think them likely--it's just that they are different things.

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Old 11-25-2009, 07:58 AM   #2013
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Formy, good catch. I didn't think Marshal was right, but I couldn't think of the proper word.

I, too, wondered about whether or not a court martial would actually be present in Rohan, but I am not an authority on such matters. Elempi was always catching stuff like that and letting us know when to alter stuff. If we decide to try to make things purely Rohirrimic (that's not a word, I don't think), then we could figure out what would be more proper. I actually think that in Rohan there would be no higher court - a soldier would be first subject to their captain and then subject to their lord, and maybe, if the offence were bad enough, could be hauled off to court before the king. That also seems pretty much the exact thing that would happen to a civilian, so I don't know.

----

Fea, I found your post very interesting and from a neat perspective. I had never considered such a reaction from Degas before. I liked it.

And I think it's humorous that you keep putting little tidbits of Saeryn's past into your posts through Degas' memory....do you do it on purpose, to give me insight to her character. Thanks.

As for Javan, what do you think if he were made to help Aedre, and not Wynflaed or Lilige? His crime wasn't against the mother or maid. I wrote a story once where one character beat up another pretty bad and then the captain made him be the other boys personal butler for two weeks. It worked pretty well...mostly....

Honestly, we don't have to avoid corporal punishment either. It would probably be perfectly natural and acceptable for that time and place. Plus, it doesn't bug me. But then, if it's Saeryn who's dealing out the punishment, she may not be likely to do that. I could actually see it being more appropriate to happen if they gave him another punishment and he either refused to do it (if he was being made to serve Aedre or something) or, in doing it, he did not do a good job on purpose, or they got into another fight. But then, come to think of it, a second fight would not be left up to Saeryn's jurisdiction but would go directly and almost immediately to Athanar, and then things would be in Nogrod's hands.

I am looking forward to later posts today and seeing how this scenerio in the hall works out.

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Old 11-25-2009, 09:22 AM   #2014
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You do realize, Nogrod (and everyone, for that matter), that all this was in jest? To my eye, Groin writing for Lithor meant Lithor to mean no harm, or at least little harm. But the way that other writer's appeared to take it and have their characters take it goes to show that even a jest may be taken terribly, terribly wrong.
Well sure, as it has been said already, we as players understand how it was meant, however, the characters' reactions are completely different. And it isn't even the point of what the character is like (in personality), not even how we (as players) see him, but what the other characters see of him, from their perspective, given their experiences from elsewhere and their view of things in general. For example Hilderinc encountered (or noticed) Lithor for the second time now, and both times he has drawn negative conclusions from that about Lithor's personality. First impressions are first impressions and one is going to carry them as a note in his mind about the person unless proven otherwise. Had he seen twenty times before Lithor saving children from burning houses or being nice to people, he would feel sympathetic now and think "sure he didn't mean anything bad, he is a good person". But without further knowledge, one may easily think "now this must be an arrogant fool, saying things like that in front of the lord".

But such misinterpretations of character, even though they are really pitiable when we look at them, are what makes the game interesting, aren't they? If everybody understood everybody, there won't be that much to uncover in the characters' relationships.

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You know, I really didn't see that coming, but then I realized that the two characters are really foils for each other.
But that's nice! That's what I think is brilliant about having new characters to interact with - you are going to discover (also for yourself, things your own character may not even realise consciously) many qualities which relate your character to another, in one way or another.
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Old 11-25-2009, 09:58 AM   #2015
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Fea, I found your post very interesting and from a neat perspective. I had never considered such a reaction from Degas before. I liked it.
My first thought was what my own reaction would be: that Athanar's seriously over-doing it just now. But it occurred to me that Degas has just dealt with this sort of insolence in his own home, and he's completely unlikely to step in in somebody else's household unless there are women and children being mistreated.

He's there solely for his sister, not for her peasant soldiers that can't hold their booze.

Quote:
And I think it's humorous that you keep putting little tidbits of Saeryn's past into your posts through Degas' memory....do you do it on purpose, to give me insight to her character. Thanks.
Haha! You caught me. Since they're twins, and she's his only living relative, he thinks of her in relation to just about everything, as a matter of course. But there was also an awful lot I knew about her that never got written, so this is a fun way to give you insight into who she was as a kid, even though who she is now is all yours. If you start minding, let me know.

Quote:
As for Javan, what do you think if he were made to help Aedre, and not Wynflaed or Lilige? His crime wasn't against the mother or maid.
That was my first thought, but I was thinking Aedre might take serious advantage of Javan being told to do as she says. And if Wynflaed's as reasonable as she seems, I think she'd realize that.
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Old 11-25-2009, 10:38 AM   #2016
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Haha! You caught me. Since they're twins, and she's his only living relative, he thinks of her in relation to just about everything, as a matter of course. But there was also an awful lot I knew about her that never got written, so this is a fun way to give you insight into who she was as a kid, even though who she is now is all yours. If you start minding, let me know.
Nope, I don't mind it at all. It's great! It is perfect to be able to see what the original writer had in mind for her past, because I currently have an empty canvas right now in my head about her background, and you keep filling it for me. That's superb. Keep it up.

Quote:
That was my first thought, but I was thinking Aedre might take serious advantage of Javan being told to do as she says. And if Wynflaed's as reasonable as she seems, I think she'd realize that.
Of course she'd take serious advantage of it. That's what would make it so insanely fun! But, you're right...Wynflaed will probably realize that. I think I have enough to go with when the time comes to write something.

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But such misinterpretations of character, even though they are really pitiable when we look at them, are what makes the game interesting, aren't they? If everybody understood everybody, there won't be that much to uncover in the characters' relationships.
Yes, this is so. I know it...and I don't mind the misunderstanding. I just felt it necessary to voice the fact that I knew he wasn't trying to be evil. I'm a peacemaker like Thornden is. I also put myself briefly into Groin's shoes. He will be very, very surprised I think when he finds out the uproar his post caused and sees the trouble his character is in. I doubt he's expecting it.
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Old 11-25-2009, 11:23 AM   #2017
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Nope, I don't mind it at all. It's great! It is perfect to be able to see what the original writer had in mind for her past, because I currently have an empty canvas right now in my head about her background, and you keep filling it for me. That's superb. Keep it up.
It's particularly fun because Elempi and I talked at great length about her background, deciding what was acceptable for a woman of the time period, what she would do that was unacceptable.

Her childhood is fun to fill in, since it's background that won't necessarily directly impact her behavior now, but her recent history is a little tougher, because for me it's scattered over the past six years, but for her, only a year or two has passed, so it will be closer to her memory than to mine.

Like, it occurs to me that it really wasn't so long ago that Saeryn was convinced that Eodwine was still in love with the ghost of his dead wife. But for me? Years have passed.

One of the first action scenes I ever wrote was Degas kicking the crud out of a not-very-nice person whilst in the White Horse. Rand, I think his name might have been.

So really, it's just amusing for me to trawl through my memories of the character and her world and give you insight into her background, which you can then use however you want, including contradicting what may well be a false memory on Degas's part.

Saeryn: "I don't remember that."

Degas: "No, it really happened."

Saeryn: "Not to me, it didn't."

Degas: "Oh, I must be thinking of Caelwyn! My bad."

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Old 11-25-2009, 12:22 PM   #2018
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Holy mule fritters! What in the blue blazes happened when I was gone?! I expected a couple posts showing approval or disapproval of Lithor's challenge, but nothing like him being accused of treason! This makes for an interesting turn of events. Unexpected and fun.

I wrote a post for Lithor that expresses his confusion. He has never been reprimanded in such a sever and public way before and he is not use to rebelling to authority. Lithor is very depressed at his merry making going wrong and being accused of something so sever as treason, so it is expected that he takes the path he did.
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Old 11-25-2009, 02:58 PM   #2019
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Not sure how Crabannan feels about being compared to a doe in the springtime - but nice touch with the Henry V quote. May as well borrow from the best!
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Old 11-25-2009, 03:19 PM   #2020
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Well, well, well... we seem to have some problems in our hands.

Okay, first things first. Sorry Groin, but you will have to actually edit your post a bit.

For two reasons: first of all lord Athanar would have stopped Lithor's speech very soon, probably already when he started it. Secondly lord Athanar would not have ordered his men to take him out as a martyr: that would be the most stupid thing he could do on that situation (and with his experience he would sure know not to let happen).

You have written a nice post for Lithor making him a much richer character he has been and thence I think we should let that part stay - even if lord Athanar would have stopped him as I said.

But the ending is more problematic and I do suggest you edit it. If things went like you have described them, lord Athanar is not only a fool but an evil fool - and Lithor's move and the fact that Athanar accepted it just like that, without a word - will leave us a situation where there is little good to be done. And with one post you have decided on my character's characteristics a great deal - into a direction I really wouldn't like to take him.

It leaves us to decide how to settle that ending... I'll go back to re-read it and try to come up with suggestions that would fit lord Athanar's profile.


But on a general note, it's great to see roleplaying getting this intense! Hurray to everyone!

Then let's just find a way out to our characters...

And I wish to underline what has been in a way said already, that we really should keep an eye on separating us the writers (and our knowledge of the situation and of each other) from our characters (who are only perceiving things from their POV) - while guiding them forwards.


PS. I only checked the word "treason" from a dictionary while reading the latest posts a while ago... I see now that I wasn't actually meaning that... (I had always thought that "high-treason" was the big one). Well no use crying over spilt milk. I'll just have to use some imagination if lord Athanar will be pressed on that...
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Old 11-25-2009, 03:42 PM   #2021
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OMG... I don't like what I see. For the closer I read the last post the clearer it is that lord Athanar would have had basically none of it...

But however I try to read it, it's quite clear Athanar would have interrupted at least Lithor coming back to the issue of temporary lordship and especially to his own oath of loyalty. I mean that is the absolutely last line lord Athanar would just listen silently.

I'll PM you some suggestions Groin if we could incorporate some dialogue there... as soon as I can.

It would be sad to keep you others waiting because of this. (With waiting I mean "not knowing the outcome".)
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Old 11-25-2009, 04:00 PM   #2022
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Sorry to have disappeared. I'm still going to be pretty busy through this next week as I have papers and projects to finish.

I'm caught up on reading, and regret that I haven't been able to post. I'll start working on a post to put Coen at the banquet and react to things, but I'll wait and see what happens with the last post (I probably won't have a post done until it's all resolved, anyway...)

And personally I'd say 'treason' is pretty close. It's certainly 'contempt' or something. I'm not sure what a better word for it is...hmmm... And not necessarily the 'challenge' idea on its own being treason (though the timing of it is pretty nuts), but the words themselves.

We have a number of characters with a flair for the dramatic, lol. I don't know if Coen can handle this, especially if they are among the soldiers he's supposed to be in charge of!
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Old 11-25-2009, 05:30 PM   #2023
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Nogrod, I'd say go ahead and work in some of your writing with Groin's post by PM. It might take a little time, but I for one am willing to wait a little while. Sometimes Groin is on multiple times in a day, but apparently, he didn't get on at all for something like 24 hours between his last two posts. Maybe now, though, he'll check up on this more often, since his character is in trouble.

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Old 11-25-2009, 05:44 PM   #2024
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Nogrod, I'd say go ahead and work in some of your writing with Groin's post by PM. It might take a little time, but I for one am willing to wait a little while.
I've just sent Groin some suggestions as to how we could deal with this. If we can get online tomorrow at the same time we could prepare the editing of the post together and if not I have left him a number of lines for lord Athanar to make at different places of Lithor's monologue so that he could choose where to bring Athanar in...

Hopefully we can get this done by tomorrow as it will be the Thanksgiving weekend for you guys and I will be at a theatre festival in another city without a permanent access online. So it would be nice for those who are actually able to post that they would know the situation and thus be able to post.

Thumbs up.
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Old 11-25-2009, 07:13 PM   #2025
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Random Thought.

I had a thought. Since Lilige had worked with Javan while unpacking the wagons, would she know his name and be able to tell Wynflaed, even though Aedre didn't know?

time for dinner.

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Old 11-25-2009, 07:48 PM   #2026
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She does, and can tell Wynflaed as soon as she gets back from the banquet. Lilige will be with Aedre...unless Aedre gave her the slip and went to the stables, but I think Nienna had decided against it? Either way, she'll probably be in her Lady's chamber. It would be natural for Wynflaed to ask if she'd seen who it was, and Lilige can and will tell her.
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Old 11-26-2009, 01:14 AM   #2027
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Okay, I've deleted my post until Nogrod and I can get a PM post up together.

Also, as a side note, I would like to add that Lithor's boast was not unusual for the Anglo Saxons to make. It is a tradition that each warrior must do when introducing himself (as seen in Beowulf). Secondly, Lithor's spear throwing in the great hall was also not unusual. My inspiration for it was from Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, where something much more gruesome happened there. A game, song, story, or challenge was not unusual at Medieval banquets. Lithor is doing nothing out of the ordinary there.
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Old 11-26-2009, 08:54 AM   #2028
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I don't really think it was the challenge itself that Athanar is angry with. It is the form of the challenge. The beginning of my post with Thornden kind of expresses, I think, what many people might be thinking - how the humor would have been right for Eodwine's time, but not now with this new lord and questions of authority still being bandied about.

Looking forward to your guys' post. Your last one was really good and I would've repped it, but they said I couldn't. Anyway, I'm sure this one will be great, too.

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Old 11-26-2009, 10:17 AM   #2029
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I don't really think it was the challenge itself that Athanar is angry with. It is the form of the challenge. The beginning of my post with Thornden kind of expresses, I think, what many people might be thinking - how the humor would have been right for Eodwine's time, but not now with this new lord and questions of authority still being bandied about.
You're quite right Foley with the "temporary-rule" -issue that it's mainly the way it was said, quite mockingly from Athanar's POV. But calling Athanar and his household "guests", by a soldier, and in public, is actually also something more substantial Athanar can't just tolerate.

Like he has shown the King's decree giving him the eorlship for everyone to see and then hearing someone calling him a guest five minutes later... thus basically publicly denying his authority. No leader would tolerate that, but someone else might have acted less heatedly.

But as you say Foley, there are so many issues of insecurity and threat around him that he overreacts. If and when we get this thing straightened out during some time and more posting, you'll see lord Athanar has nothing against a merry party... Although I don't think him to be a "party-animal" -type of person himself.
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Old 11-26-2009, 10:56 AM   #2030
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Yeah, I figured. It was even the 'temporary lord' thing that caught me off guard and not exactly the 'guests' part.

This incident will make it even harder for the new people to settle in and the old people to accept them. I've been kind of thinking about what Javan is doing and thinking all this time. I don't know what he'd be thinking. Sometimes my characters manage to confuse me.

And I may post some post for Saeryn and her thoughts, just so I can fill some time and space before you two get your post up, so it doesn't seem like the game is stalling.

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Old 11-26-2009, 11:18 AM   #2031
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Hey, um, Nogrod - you keep saying "quests." Do you mean "guests?" Just curious.
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Old 11-26-2009, 11:23 AM   #2032
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Hey, um, Nogrod - you keep saying "quests." Do you mean "guests?" Just curious.
I actually do, mean "guests" that is... That's an age old letter-blindness with me...
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Old 11-26-2009, 11:27 AM   #2033
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Oh, good. Everything makes much more sense now.
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Old 11-26-2009, 11:32 AM   #2034
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And I may post some post for Saeryn and her thoughts, just so I can fill some time and space before you two get your post up, so it doesn't seem like the game is stalling.
That's a good idea.

We're actually writing the post (we've had two rounds) but I'm not sure when Groin is going to be back - and especially while he has deleted his earlier post there could be a specially good spot to post something in the next hours... (I mean those reactions can of course come also after the dialogue between Ath & Lith but they would be even better posted before.)
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Old 11-26-2009, 03:13 PM   #2035
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Our post is up. Thanks Nogrod!
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Old 11-26-2009, 03:30 PM   #2036
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Thanks Groin! It was a lot of fun indeed!

It's so different when you can't just decide what happens yourself but someone actually puts you in a tight situation and requires you to really think how your character reacts - and throws your character into a situation you wouldn't have imagined yourself!

As said earlier, this kind of posting is strongly recommended to everyone who just has time!
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Old 11-26-2009, 04:07 PM   #2037
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OH MY!!!!!!!!

Seems like I should never let school take over me and go away from here.

Off to post (and come up an excuse for the WW not to have already interfered!)
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Old 11-26-2009, 05:03 PM   #2038
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I will continue for the two rascals later (this weekend) and get them more involved with stuff. That's there as a sort of reminder that they exist.

As for what I posted for Modtryth, if someone wants to hear Modtryth's remark and continue, feel free to. If not, I will continue from there myself (I can very well do that).
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Old 11-26-2009, 05:10 PM   #2039
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Wow, Lommy, in one post you managed to make me have two different reactions while thinking about two different characters. Worry for Javan and righteous indignation in defense of Saeryn. I just about screamed when I read their comments about her. Good job!

Nogrod and Groin, great post! Poor Lithor! Poor man, having insulted him at the last. Oh wow. Yippee! Posts can get back online. I am SO excited!

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Old 11-26-2009, 05:29 PM   #2040
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You love my new characters, Foley, don't you?
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