Gifts of Celeborn - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Hugo Millbanks · 02-17-2009, 11:34 AM

While reading through Fairwell to Lothlorien it occured to me that the gifts given to Boromir , the 2 younger hobbits, and Legolas were not defined with any specific virtues. I looked through the Treason of Isengard and found that those gifts were written once and left unchanged.
My question to anyone who may know or guess, what were the virtues of the Gold and Silver belts?
I would guess that the Bow and Arrows given Legolas would have at least the virtue of distance and seeking evil, (since Legolas was apparently able to shoot the steed from under the Wringwraith in the dark).
(On a side note, can anyone imagine Gimli being Elfstone?)

BGreg · 02-17-2009, 12:15 PM

Well are there supposed to be some special virtues? Maybe they were merely an example of fine craftsmanship (ok, crafts-elf-ship

) of Lorien.

What seems more interesting to me is why didn't Galadriel and Celeborn prepare anything for Gimli? I'm sure they could have given him a Golden belt too. It's almost as if Galadriel foresaw that he will become an Elf-friend, or at least expected him to show the politeness of Dwarves.

Mithalwen · 02-17-2009, 12:27 PM

This is not something that I have thought about before but it happens that I have been looking at this part of the story for other reasons and while it may well be that Tolkien had no special intention, it is possible to see a significance in them knowing particularly that Galadriel had looked into the hearts and minds of the fellowship.

It is my feeling that the items had no magic as the elves would deem it any more than the cloaks but still they had a virtue and like the lembas had a slightly different effect on mortals than their elvish makers.

This is an interesting topic as I had basically ignored them before as make-weight gifts of no real significance but now I think this was a mistake.

A belt is not simply a device for holding garments in or up! It is a symbol of rank - as for an earl or knight (or indeed for a martial artist).

Galadriel like her mentor Melian protected her land with a girdle, a belt and if you look at the definition of "gird":
1.
a. To encircle with a belt or band.
b. To fasten or secure (clothing, for example) with a belt or band.
c. To surround.
2. To equip or endow.
3. To prepare (oneself) for action.

By her gifts Galdriel may be making a physical symbol of whatever protection her power and thought may give them once they leave her land, and it may be no coincidence that it is now that the actions of Boromir, Merry and Pippin will now be vital to the successful outcome of the quest. Almost makes me wonder if Galadriel in her mental examination goaded Boromir into making a grab for the ring - would certainly explain his deep mistrust of her motives! though that may be going too far. It may be significant that his belt is golden - a circle of gold but not the one he desires.

It is interesting that Merry and Pippin had identical gifts. So often bracketed together and tag-alongs they are about to become prime-movers bringing Aragorn to Rohan, rousing the Ents and becoming knights of Gondor and the Mark. They will also less vitally to the victory but happily for the peace, save the lives of and bring together Faramir and Eowyn - who will restore Ithilien to its former glory with Elvish help as perhaps part compensation for the fading of Lorien.

Hmm, just how much did Galadriel anticipate?

The Mouth of Sauron · 02-18-2009, 10:43 AM

The best gift that Celeborn and Galadriel could have given would have been to quietly warn Aragorn that Boromir was in trouble, then to persuade Boromir to either stay in Lorien or return to Minas Tirith separately from the rest of the Company.

Galadriel knew Boromir was "turning" - she told Gandalf this when he turned up the day after the Company left Lorien. So why didn't she act ? It would have been safer for the Company and better for Minas Tirith if a revitalised Boromir had been able to assist in the defence of Gondor.

Mithalwen · 02-18-2009, 12:17 PM

I don't think Boromir was persuadable. I don't know whether he could have left Frodo of his own choice with the hold the ring... or the idea of the ring had on him which is why he acted when it was clear perhaps he would have to let it go. And I don't think Galadriel would have held him against his will. You can't punish people for something they might do - PJ O Rourke said something on the lines of the Supreme Court can't punish you for having a smart look on your face - which is the difference between having a judicial system and having a mother....

Morwen · 03-21-2010, 08:28 PM

I find the title of the thread interesting as I tend to think of the gifts to the Fellowship as Galadriel's gifts. She is the one who presents the gifts and several of them have a personal connection to Galadriel - specially blessed earth from her garden, light from a star set amid the waters from her fountain, an heirloom originally given to her daughter and of course the hairs from her head.
With respect to the gift giving ceremony my take on it was that intention was to give parting gifts to everyone and some people's gifts ended up being more personalised than others. Gimli's gift is given because of his particular request. The brooch given to Aragorn is strictly speaking not really Galadriel's gift but one left in her keeping. However, in the case of the gifts to Sam and Frodo I wonder if the more personal nature of their gifts stems from the fact that she has interacted with them more than the other fellowship members (with the exception of Aragorn), namely when they are invited to look into her mirror. Of course the special nature of Frodo's gift can also be explained by the fact that he is the Ring-bearer and very much in Galadriel's thoughts.

Erendis · 03-22-2010, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

Galadriel knew Boromir was "turning" - she told Gandalf this when he turned up the day after the Company left Lorien. So why didn't she act ? It would have been safer for the Company and better for Minas Tirith if a revitalised Boromir had been able to assist in the defence of Gondor.

I am not that sure about it.Since the crave of the Ring was not fully healed even after it's destruction,he would have been more like another potential danger through the journey.

Mithalwen · 03-22-2010, 12:43 PM

I also think Elves had by this point adopted a fairly "hands off" approach to Men. If they had been going to force one to do anything then Elrond and Cirdan missed their chance with Isildure... though of course it would have had fatal consequences for them and the troops in the vicinity...

shadowfax · 03-26-2010, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I don't think Boromir was persuadable. I don't know whether he could have left Frodo of his own choice with the hold the ring... or the idea of the ring had on him which is why he acted when it was clear perhaps he would have to let it go. And I don't think Galadriel would have held him against his will. You can't punish people for something they might do - PJ O Rourke said something on the lines of the Supreme Court can't punish you for having a smart look on your face - which is the difference between having a judicial system and having a mother....

exactly, and remember that any future Galdriel foresaw was but one possible future and not the only possible future.

Who knows what positive and noble contribution Boromir might have made in alternative developments of the plot ...

02-17-2009, 11:34 AM	#1
Hugo Millbanks Newly Deceased Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: San Diego Posts: 3	Gifts of Celeborn While reading through Fairwell to Lothlorien it occured to me that the gifts given to Boromir , the 2 younger hobbits, and Legolas were not defined with any specific virtues. I looked through the Treason of Isengard and found that those gifts were written once and left unchanged. My question to anyone who may know or guess, what were the virtues of the Gold and Silver belts? I would guess that the Bow and Arrows given Legolas would have at least the virtue of distance and seeking evil, (since Legolas was apparently able to shoot the steed from under the Wringwraith in the dark). (On a side note, can anyone imagine Gimli being Elfstone?)

02-17-2009, 12:27 PM	#3
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,449	This is not something that I have thought about before but it happens that I have been looking at this part of the story for other reasons and while it may well be that Tolkien had no special intention, it is possible to see a significance in them knowing particularly that Galadriel had looked into the hearts and minds of the fellowship. It is my feeling that the items had no magic as the elves would deem it any more than the cloaks but still they had a virtue and like the lembas had a slightly different effect on mortals than their elvish makers. This is an interesting topic as I had basically ignored them before as make-weight gifts of no real significance but now I think this was a mistake. A belt is not simply a device for holding garments in or up! It is a symbol of rank - as for an earl or knight (or indeed for a martial artist). Galadriel like her mentor Melian protected her land with a girdle, a belt and if you look at the definition of "gird": 1. a. To encircle with a belt or band. b. To fasten or secure (clothing, for example) with a belt or band. c. To surround. 2. To equip or endow. 3. To prepare (oneself) for action. By her gifts Galdriel may be making a physical symbol of whatever protection her power and thought may give them once they leave her land, and it may be no coincidence that it is now that the actions of Boromir, Merry and Pippin will now be vital to the successful outcome of the quest. Almost makes me wonder if Galadriel in her mental examination goaded Boromir into making a grab for the ring - would certainly explain his deep mistrust of her motives! though that may be going too far. It may be significant that his belt is golden - a circle of gold but not the one he desires. It is interesting that Merry and Pippin had identical gifts. So often bracketed together and tag-alongs they are about to become prime-movers bringing Aragorn to Rohan, rousing the Ents and becoming knights of Gondor and the Mark. They will also less vitally to the victory but happily for the peace, save the lives of and bring together Faramir and Eowyn - who will restore Ithilien to its former glory with Elvish help as perhaps part compensation for the fading of Lorien. Hmm, just how much did Galadriel anticipate? __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace Last edited by Mithalwen; 02-18-2009 at 05:56 AM.

02-18-2009, 12:17 PM	#5
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,449	I don't think Boromir was persuadable. I don't know whether he could have left Frodo of his own choice with the hold the ring... or the idea of the ring had on him which is why he acted when it was clear perhaps he would have to let it go. And I don't think Galadriel would have held him against his will. You can't punish people for something they might do - PJ O Rourke said something on the lines of the Supreme Court can't punish you for having a smart look on your face - which is the difference between having a judicial system and having a mother.... __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

03-21-2010, 08:28 PM	#6
Morwen Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 274	I find the title of the thread interesting as I tend to think of the gifts to the Fellowship as Galadriel's gifts. She is the one who presents the gifts and several of them have a personal connection to Galadriel - specially blessed earth from her garden, light from a star set amid the waters from her fountain, an heirloom originally given to her daughter and of course the hairs from her head. With respect to the gift giving ceremony my take on it was that intention was to give parting gifts to everyone and some people's gifts ended up being more personalised than others. Gimli's gift is given because of his particular request. The brooch given to Aragorn is strictly speaking not really Galadriel's gift but one left in her keeping. However, in the case of the gifts to Sam and Frodo I wonder if the more personal nature of their gifts stems from the fact that she has interacted with them more than the other fellowship members (with the exception of Aragorn), namely when they are invited to look into her mirror. Of course the special nature of Frodo's gift can also be explained by the fact that he is the Ring-bearer and very much in Galadriel's thoughts. __________________ He looked down at her in the twilight and it seemed to him that the lines of grief and cruel hardship were smoothed away. "She was not conquered," he said Last edited by Morwen; 03-21-2010 at 09:36 PM.

03-22-2010, 12:43 PM	#8
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,449	I also think Elves had by this point adopted a fairly "hands off" approach to Men. If they had been going to force one to do anything then Elrond and Cirdan missed their chance with Isildure... though of course it would have had fatal consequences for them and the troops in the vicinity... __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

02-17-2009, 12:15 PM	#2
BGreg Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Central Europe Posts: 24	Well are there supposed to be some special virtues? Maybe they were merely an example of fine craftsmanship (ok, crafts-elf-ship ) of Lorien. What seems more interesting to me is why didn't Galadriel and Celeborn prepare anything for Gimli? I'm sure they could have given him a Golden belt too. It's almost as if Galadriel foresaw that he will become an Elf-friend, or at least expected him to show the politeness of Dwarves.

02-18-2009, 10:43 AM	#4
The Mouth of Sauron Wight Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Barad-Dur Posts: 196	The best gift that Celeborn and Galadriel could have given would have been to quietly warn Aragorn that Boromir was in trouble, then to persuade Boromir to either stay in Lorien or return to Minas Tirith separately from the rest of the Company. Galadriel knew Boromir was "turning" - she told Gandalf this when he turned up the day after the Company left Lorien. So why didn't she act ? It would have been safer for the Company and better for Minas Tirith if a revitalised Boromir had been able to assist in the defence of Gondor.