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Old 02-14-2003, 09:25 AM   #41
Dininziliel
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This only shows how strong the power of Love can be ...

In Mirkwood, Gollum was powerfully jonesing for his drug and had no choice but to track down the Ring. When he found Frodo & Sam, yes--he only wanted the Ring and would have killed them both to get it. The main point here is that Gollum was still in the throes of addiction, and when that's the case, there is no choice in the matter.

However, Gollum did go through a crisis of choice when Frodo showed pity & mercy. Gollum was able to access caring, guilt, and hope. That he could experience these things while so close to the Ring's central source, is strong evidence that Love can affect evil.

Tolkien himself said on several occasions that choice, and the power of pity/mercy (Love) are core themes in LOTR, and that Gollum-Bilbo/Frodo are the central characters illustrating this. He actually mentions that Sam's treatment and attitude was a factor in Smeagol/Gollum's decision.
So, I don't see how one can argue with the author.

As pointed out, Smeagol chose Gollum--he set his course when he murdered Deagol. Even after this, there were still chances for redemption, but .. he chose the Ring. So, into the pit he has to go!

Quote:
Love that Smeagol, eh? He had plenty of opportunity to repent after he lost the Ring to Bilbo. And when it comes to showing mercy on him, the Elves of Mirkwood did just that; at least as much as Frodo gave him anyway. And the Ring wasn't even near to tempt him to poor behavior during those days.
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Old 02-14-2003, 12:05 PM   #42
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He actually mentions that Sam's treatment and attitude was a factor in Smeagol/Gollum's decision.
So, I don't see how one can argue with the author.
Pardon my ignorance here, but you'll need to provide a source or reference for that. I've never read anything that has specifically said it is Sam's fault Gollum didn't repent. I find this a ludicrous notion.

The bigger picture of course is that Gollum's integral part in the destruction of the Ring WAS his repentance for deeds done. It was quite obviously an unwilling sacrifice. All of Sam's sacrifices were quite willing as we know. The difference was in Gollum's 'desire' for the Ring - which would never have left in my opinion. That is why Frodo was his 'master' - Gollum revered him in a twisted way.

Elrond:
Quote:
The very desire of it corrupts the heart.
Corrupt: Evil, debased, depraved.
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Old 02-14-2003, 12:55 PM   #43
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I'm gonna be looking that up for you! I don't have my books with me at present, so I hope you will be patient.

Explanations re Gollum's & Sam's relationship can be found in The Letters of JRR Tolkien edited by Carpenter and Christopher Tolkien for those who want to pursue this independently and not wait. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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Old 02-15-2003, 07:08 PM   #44
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1420!

Those are some good points Fain Clawmirth.

Tar-Palantir:

Quote:
Love that Smeagol, eh?
Yep, of course!!! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Quote:
He had plenty of opportunity to repent after he lost the Ring to Bilbo. And when it comes to showing mercy on him, the Elves of Mirkwood did just that; at least as much as Frodo gave him anyway. And the Ring wasn't even near to tempt him to poor behavior during those days.
He really didn't have much opportunity for repent. Think about it. He had the ring for about 500 years, and then he loses it. Having an addiction to something for that long does not simply make the addiction go away. Besides, at first he must be extremely furious that he lost the ring. It's an initial reaction. So what does he do? He goes out searching for it. He finds his way to Mordor, only to be tortured by Sauron. That had to spark some anger and hatred. He was forced back to Mirkwood by Aragorn, against his will. And then he had to put up with a stern wizard who is not so kind when his main priority is to question and obtain information. Then he was held captive by the elves of Mirkwood. He was bent on finding the ring but was delayed by those elves. Yes, he recieved mercy, but that was not what he needed at all. Being delayed would only make him more furious. Compassion, acceptance, or love would have been much greater than mercy. And stubborn people do not at all like being held captive against their will, or forced to do anything else against their will either. So it seems that wherever he went after leaving the mountain, he was delayed and treated inproperly.

And it doesn't really matter if the ring is around or not. The addiction is still there. The desire is still there.

Quote:
Oh yes, he came out. His longing for the Ring proved stronger than his fear of the Orcs, or even of the light. After a year or two he left the mountains. You see, though still bound by the desire of it...
-Ch. 2 The Shadow of the Past, FotR

He still longs for the ring. The part of his mind that the ring controlled when he had it still had control of it even when Gollum didn't have it. I think of it as a virus- it stays with you. It still corrupts his mind, even if it is not present. And if you say that the ring no longer controls that part of the mind, since Gollum no longer has it, then fine. If that's the case, then there's a void, and the only way that Gollum's mind knows how to fill it is by getting the ring back. So, the desire fills the void until the ring can. But the desire is not as strong as the ring itself was against the part of Gollum's mind that was still Smeagol's. So Smeagol's part starts to regain what originally belonged to him. So that's why he was riviving a little. Now I'm sort of trailing off...

Quote:
Frodo had Gollum's drug, his mistress; that is the only reason he showed any respect or caring of Frodo. Otherwise Gollum would have been gone in a flash...
Well, that's how Gollum felt for Frodo at first, only because Frodo had the ring. But it changed. Frodo showed Gollum love, compassion, and acceptance, and all three of those (especially together) came as a shock to him. After this, Gollum began to respect Frodo as a person, not solely as the ringbearer or his master. Frodo knows what Gollum is going through, so he symathizes with him. Gollum deeply repects Frodo for this. It sort of starts to build a relationship between them. So, the ring is not the only reason Gollum respects Frodo.

And Gollum had his chances to take the ring but he refused to. He wasn't 'gone in a flash', as you put it. Instead he tried to take up Frodo's offering of acceptance. Then Sam wakes up, and well, you know what happens.

dininziliel:

I agree with some of what you said, however, there are some parts that I disagree with. You can probably see what I mean from what I said when referring to Tar-Palantir. I really agree with what you said here
Quote:
Love can affect evil
That is very true.

Quote:
As pointed out, Smeagol chose Gollum--he set his course when he murdered Deagol. Even after this, there were still chances for redemption, but .. he chose the Ring. So, into the pit he has to go!
I don't think that Smeagol permenantly set his course, however, I belive that he got in a rut. He could get out of it, but sadly he never did. He sometimes did redeem himself in a way by choosing not to take the ring, however it wasn't enough and in the end he did choose the ring. However I don't think he deserved to die, but he did go into the pit anyways. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

And, one thing that I noticed with you is that you seem to like putting quotes at the end of your post. Keep doing it if you want but it is best to explain quotes if you put them in your writing, and if you do explain them, you should explain them after your quote. Just some advice if you want it. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Tar-Palantir

Quote:
Gollum's integral part in the destruction of the Ring WAS his repentance for deeds done.
Maybe it's just me, but that doesn't really make sense.

Quote:
Gollum's 'desire' for the Ring - which would never have left in my opinion. That is why Frodo was his 'master' - Gollum revered him in a twisted way.
I don't believe the desire would have left either, but it could have died down. And if the ring was destroyed and Gollum still alive, maybe the desire would leave with the ring. It's hard to say. But, again, I don't think that Frodo was his master only because of the ring or the desire of it.
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Old 02-15-2003, 08:12 PM   #45
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Gollum's integral part in the destruction of the Ring WAS his repentance for deeds done.
I just meant that it was his last good deed (whether it was selfish in nature or not), he saved Frodo's life and maybe all of ME. Akin to Boromir trying to save Merry and Pippin, at least the way I look at it.

To me the deal with Smeagol is that he simply would never be rid of the desire for the Ring. As quoted above from Erlond, that is all it takes, the desire of it, to corrupt the heart. At the moment before entering Shelob's lair, when he woke up Sam, Sam was not overly harsh to him, he even apologized, but it didn't help. Even if Sam hadn't called him an "old villian" and a "sneak" do you think he would have stopped his plan? "Oh, by the way Frodo, there is a huge black spider ahead, sorry I forgot to mention it." He might have felt more guilty about it, but that's probably all. Too bad we'll never know!

And you know that he would most likely have died anyway once the Ring was destroyed. Obviously we can't be certain, but if Bilbo had all his years come back in a flash, so would Smeagol. A pile of bones would be it, but maybe he would have felt some of his great burden lifted before he perished, that would have been a priceless gift.

Willie, can I call you Frodo? Because you keep defending that sneak? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] I'll be Sam of course....
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Old 02-15-2003, 08:22 PM   #46
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1420!

I see what you mean now.

Quote:
Even if Sam hadn't called him an "old villian" and a "sneak" do you think he would have stopped his plan?
I actually think that he would have. I think that he would have made some excuse like there were orcs guarding the way and they had to go another way. But like you said, we'll never know.

I don't why i even care if Golllum would change since he probably would die when the ring is destroyed. It would just make me happy knowing he did change. I don't know why and I can't begin to explain it either.

Quote:
Willie, can I call you Frodo? Because you keep defending that sneak? I'll be Sam of course....
That's Mister Frodo to you Sam! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]
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Old 02-15-2003, 10:22 PM   #47
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Willie, I have to agree with your sentiment. Since I first read the book, I've been rooting for Smeagol to win the argument. When I saw it in the movie, I was STILL pulling for him. Maybe, as a fellow sinner, I need his redemption to feel some assurance of my own.
First off, Sauron endowed the Ring with a portion of his power. He invested himself into the Ring.He was corrupted by envy and when he invested his power, he invested his weaknesses,i.e.envy and greed.
Envy of Deagol's new find made Smeagol kill his friend for the Ring.
The Ring awakens desire. (envy) the Hobbits were simple folk, with simple desires, peace, quiet, second breakfastes, orderliness and cleanliness, among others.Except for silver teaspoons, they didn't seem to be tempted by precious metals.I think that this is why the Ring is slow in changing them. It's hard to equate desire for a second piece of chocolate cake with world domination.(hold this thought)
Borormir desired power and glory. I believe that he felt envy for Denethor and Aragorn and it corrupted him. Although he wished to use the Ring to defeat Sauron, his ultimate goal was to bring glory to himself, as opposed to ridding the world of a great evil.His desire was greater, thus his corruption was quicker.
Second Track.
Smeagol went back to his home after "finding" the Ring from Deagol. How long did he spend there? I believe that Gandalf says Gollum's grandmother eventually turned him out because of a series of incidents and that he continued to wander until he went to the Misty Mountains.How long?
Although his initial misdeed was grevious, he became more Hobbitlike after, doing mischief in small ways. Again, the greatness of the desire portends the immediacy of the corruption.
Gandalf, Galadriel, and elrond, all ringbearers, would have taken the Ring and used it to defeat Sauron. Their desires would have been for great good and this would have slowed the corruption. However, they were all wise enough, and filled with enough lore of the Ring to accept the fact that corruption was inevitable. This knowledge allowed them to turn it down.
I'm sorry, I seem to be going on and on. Let me get to the point. The Ring is a corupting influence based on the power and desires of its maker. This influence is in direct proportion to the power and desires of its bearer.
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Old 02-15-2003, 11:35 PM   #48
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Tar-Palantir wrote:
Quote:
Pardon my ignorance here, but you'll need to provide a source or reference for that. I've never read anything that has specifically said it is Sam's fault Gollum didn't repent. I find this a ludicrous notion.
I appreciate your patience for my efforts to provide the sources/references. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Here they are ...

Tolkien writes to his son, Christopher, "For myself, I was prob. most moved by . . . the scene where Frodo goes to sleep on his [Sam's] breast, and the tragedy of Gollum who at that moment came within a hair of repentance--but for one rough word from Sam." (Letter #94)

Tolkien writes to Houghton-Mifflin, "[I am] most grieved by Gollum's failure (just) to repent when interrupted by Sam; this seems to me really like the real world in which the instruments of just retribution are seldom themselves just or holy; and the good are often stumbling blocks ....." (Letter #165)

Tolkien writes to Michael Straights, "But at this point the 'salvation' of the world and Frodo's own 'salvation' is achieved by his previous pity and forgiveness of injury. At any point any prudent person would have told Frodo that Gollum would certainly* betray him, and could rob him in the end. To 'pity' him, to forbear to kill him, was a piece of folly, or a mystical belief in the ultiamte value-in-itself of pity and generosity even if disastrous in the world of time. He did rob him and injure him in the end -- but by a 'grace', that last betrayal was at a precise juncture when the final evil deed was the most beneficial thing any one cd. have done for Frodo! By a situation created by his 'forgiveness', he was saved himself, and relieved of his burden . . . Into the ultimate judgement upon Gollum I would not care to enquire. This would be to investigate 'Goddes privitee', as the Medievals said. Gollum was pitiable, but he ended in persistent wickedness, and the fact that this worked good was no credit to him. . . I am afraid . . . we have to face the fact that there are persons who yield to temptations, reject their chances of nobility or salvation, and appear to be 'damnable'. The 'damnability' is not measurable in the terms of the macrocosm (where it may work good). But we who are all 'in the same boat' must not usurp the Judge. The domination of the Ring was much too strong for the mean soul of Smeagol. But he would have never had to endure it if he had not become a mean sort of thief before it crossed his path. Need it ever have crossed his path? Need anything dangerous ever cross any of our paths? A kind of answer cd. be found in trying to imagine Gollum overcoming temptation. The story would have been quite different! By temporizing, not fixing the still not wholly Smeagol-will towards good in the debate in the slag hole, he weakened himself for the final chance when dawning love of Frodo was too easily withered by the jealousy of Sam before Shelob's lair. After that he was lost." (Letter #181)

Christopher(? JRR?) Tolkien added an asterisk to this letter saying, "Not quite 'certainly'. The clumsiness in fidelity of Sam was what finally pushed Gollum over the brink, when about to repent."

Whew!

The italics abbreviations are Tolkien's; the bracketed parts are mine as are most of the ellipses.

I think this supports and validates much of what Willie & I have posted thus far. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

#2 post coming up ...
[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ February 16, 2003: Message edited by: dininziliel ]
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Old 02-16-2003, 12:06 AM   #49
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Here's part 2 ...

Willie wrote:
Quote:
I don't think that Smeagol permenantly set his course, however, I belive that he got in a rut. He could get out of it, but sadly he never did. He sometimes did redeem himself in a way by choosing not to take the ring, however it wasn't enough and in the end he did choose the ring. However I don't think he deserved to die, but he did go into the pit anyways.
Some of the content in the excerpts from Tolkien's letters in my last post speak to this. I agree that choosing again (redemption) is always possible. When I said that Gollum had sealed his fate when he murdered Deagol, I was being, ahem, kinda cute [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] by employing a literary allusion to Greek tragedy--how Gollum qualified for bona fide classic tragic status from start to finish. While this is still legit, it (and the "into the pit he must go") implied that I thought Gollum deserved to die. This is not the case. I defer to Gandalf's eloquence on that matter ("Some that die deserve life ... can you give it to them ..." speech).

In the excerpted letters, Tolkien mentions a most essential element in the Gollum-Frodo-Sam dynamics that I don't recall us having mentioned--forgiveness. Forgiveness being, operatively, the recognition that we are, indeed, all in the same boat, and a recognition that we are all "employed" by Iluvatar/God/Love. In other words, we are the same clay, and are fully capable of the same choices.

Willie also wrote:
Quote:
And, one thing that I noticed with you is that you seem to like putting quotes at the end of your post. Keep doing it if you want but it is best to explain quotes if you put them in your writing, and if you do explain them, you should explain them after your quote. Just some advice if you want it.
Well, I am still getting used to message boards--their similarities and differences. All the same, I thought I was explaining things and then offering the quote as a way of referencing my remarks. I think I have figured out this board a bit better and hope I have put the cart before the horse this time? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

By the way--I went to see The Pianist last night. If anyone wishes to see the power of forgiveness and faith (or hope), this is one of the most powerful illustrations I have ever seen. It is a true story and it is not for the faint of heart. It spurred a long and rich conversation with my friend about Tolkien and LotR/Silmarillion afterward.

Peace and Love (they're not just for hippies anymore!) [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
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Old 02-16-2003, 01:23 AM   #50
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Thank you dinenziliel for posting that.

Quote:
By temporizing, not fixing the still not wholly Smeagol-will towards good in the debate in the slag hole, he weakened himself for the final chance when dawning love of Frodo was too easily withered by the jealousy of Sam before Shelob's lair.
Precisely. Though Sam may have dealt a blow, it was not he who forced the weakness on Gollum. Furthermore, it was not intentional; had Sam known Gollum's repenting state of mind in that moment he certainly would have encouraged it. We as ordinary people never know when our actions might set someone over the brink, as it is a rare quality to be forgiving to all, even those you don't like. This quality solidifies Frodo's great stature and should not soil Sam's.

Quote:
But he would have never had to endure it if he had not become a mean sort of thief before it crossed his path. (from letter #181)
Ta Da! The ball is in your court Mr. Frodo. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ February 16, 2003: Message edited by: Tar-Palantir ]
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Old 02-16-2003, 03:41 AM   #51
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1420!

Gilbo, very interesting thoughts on the ring. It makes me think...

dininziliel, yep, that does validate a lot of what I was saying.

About 'forgiveness', that is strange how we have not yet discussed it. I'm not sure if it would have made much of a difference, if any at all. It's late, and I'm tired, so maybe I'll try discussing it tomorrow or something.

Here's another bit of advice. When posting anything, cut/copy/paste can be your best friends. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Quote:
Ta Da! The ball is in your court Mr. Frodo.
I guess it's time to play!

Quote:
Though Sam may have dealt a blow, it was not he who forced the weakness on Gollum. Furthermore, it was not intentional
True, but it was just coincidence. Sam and Gollum are the type of people who just don't get along. For no apparant reason they just hate each other. Sam doesn't like Gollum, so he picks on him and calls him names and stuff. Gollum doesn't like being treated this way therefore he doesn't like Sam. Sam accuses Gollum of sneaking when Gollum is on the verge of repenting. Sam didn't do this to pprevent Gollum's repentence, it was unintentional. He was doing it because he didn't like Gollum and that was a way of insulting him. However, it was wrong for Sam to insult Gollum all the time, including that time. The main thing is, instead of a minor bad thing happening (Sam insulting Gollum), a major bad thing happens (Sam prevents Gollum's repentence). So Gollum would be a changed ring addict if Sam had been a good little hobbit. Well, that's a little crude, but you see what I mean, right?

I'm tired. If you want me to explain further, I will. Until then, good night. [img]smilies/redface.gif[/img]
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Old 02-16-2003, 07:34 PM   #52
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Quote:
With regards to the the Ring though, why is then that only two characters actually made an attempt to take the Ring? Boromir and Smeagol. What is it that sets these two apart?
Seems to me that this is an interesting point that hasn't yet been as fully explored as it might.

As far as Boromir is concerned, he believes that the Ring can be used to defend his people and defeat Sauron. He is expressly told that the Ring cannot be used in this way, but he is proud and arrogant enough to believe that he can overcome its power and use it for good. (In this sense, he is ignorant: he ignores what he is told concerning the Ring, preferring his own counsel.) Now, if these were the only factors at work, I do not believe that he would have attempted to seize the Ring off Frodo by force. It is the Ring, working on these innate weaknesses in his character, that makes him resort to this uncharacteristically ignoble act.

And quite rightly, a distinction is made between Boromir's ignorance of the futility of attempting to wield the Ring and the recognition of such futility by the likes of Galadriel, Elrond, Gandalf, Aragorn and Faramir. As representatives of the Eldar, Maiar and Edain, they have sufficient wisdom to recognise and accept its dangers and are able to resist the temptation to take it when it is freely offered to them, or when it is theirs for the taking. Can we assume from this that they would never have been tempted to seize it by force, or would prolonged exposure to it perhaps have driven even them to make a grab for it? Certainly, from what Gandalf and Galadriel say, they recognise that they would not have been able long to resist its power had they accepted it when it was offered to them.

Few others come into close enough contact with the Ring to be tempted by it. But what of Legolas and Gimli? No doubt, they too would have succumbed to its powers as Ringbearers, but would they ever have been driven to seize it? Legolas is an Elf, but relatively young. Would he have been tempted by it given sufficient time and exposure? Did Dwarves have any particular resistance, or would Gimli have succumbed? Bilbo's Dwarvish companions exhibit no particular desire for it, but then it was not at the height of its powers at that time.

And finally, what of the Hobbits? My understanding is that Hobbits display an almost unique resistance to the kind of power with which the Ring is imbued. And so they make "ideal" Ringbearers. Of course, Bilbo is reluctant to give it up, although he is able to do so. And Frodo claims it as his own on the edge of Mount Doom, although only after having succeeded in his struggle with it long enough to get it there. But they were Ringbearers, and so were directly exposed to it (as was Sam during his brief tenure as a Ringbearer, and he is also able to resist it). I doubt that Sam, Merry or Pippin would ever have been driven to try and seize it.

Which brings me to my final question, and one which has puzzled me for some time. Smeagol was originally a Hobbit (sometimes he is described as having come from a Hobbit-like race, but what else could he have been?) So, if Hobbits are supposed to be peculiarly resistant to the Ring, why is Smeagol driven to murder his friend for it by the mere sight of it? This does seem to me to be at odds with the idea of Hobbits as being the race which is most resistant to the Ring.
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Old 02-16-2003, 08:10 PM   #53
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Smeagul is a stoor. A type of halfing, but not a hobbit. Dunno what the real difference is. I think it wasn't Smeagul's racial weaknesses, but his own personal faults that caused him to take the ring. Acording to Gandalf, given enough time everyone succombs to the ring, so it would be only a matter of time before Gimli, Legolas, Merry, Pippen, Sam, ect. fell.
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Old 02-17-2003, 03:32 AM   #54
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Bilbo's Dwarvish companions exhibit no particular desire for it, but then it was not at the height of its powers at that time.
Well, Sauron was not at the height of his powers, but I don't think that the ring has different levels of power. I believe that it is always at the same level. I think it was just as dangerous as it ever was and just as desirable. So, I don't think it matters. But about the dwarves. The fact of the matter is that they didn't even know about the ring. So, we don't know if they would desire it or not had they know of it.

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So, if Hobbits are supposed to be peculiarly resistant to the Ring, why is Smeagol driven to murder his friend for it by the mere sight of it?
Well, as Arvedui III said,
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his own personal faults that caused him to take the ring
I think that a big part of it was because of Smeagol himself. He was sort of the curious and greedy type. But I think an even bigger part of it was his knowledge of the ring. What did Smeagol know about the ring? Nothing. No one told him of the ring and its dangers or risks. It just happened to cross his path. So, the ring takes full advantage of his personal faults and his complete ignorance of the ring. And Smeagol has to kill someone in order to obtain the ring. The ring also happened to cross the path of Bilbo, who also was completeley ignorant to the ring. However, he did not have to kill anyone to obtain it, all he had to do was pick it up. So, we don't know whether he would have killed anyone to obtain it. And then with Frodo and Sam, they were both well informed of the ring and its dangers and risks so they had some more resilience to the ring. And Merry and Pippin also knew of this, so they did not attempt to take it. And the reason why Bilbo could give it up while Gollum could not was because Gollum had to kill someone for it, while Bilbo did not. So right away the ring was corrupting Gollum greatly. And secondly, Gollum had it, alone, just him and the ring, for about 500 years. And Bilbo had it for a lot less. Besides that, Bilbo was living a life, not one at the roots of a mountain all alone. He lived in full interaction with other people, so he was not alone. And he had much help from Gandalf in the fight for the ring while Gollum was all alone.

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A type of halfing, but not a hobbit.
You can't really say a Stoor isn't a hobbit. No one knows, except Tolkien, who happens to be dead. But it is suggested that Stoors are hobbits. They're just a little isolated and distant, but that doesn't make them any less of a hobbit. And Halfling is just another word for hobbit, it's just slang.

But welcome! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
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Old 02-17-2003, 05:36 AM   #55
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I'm not sure where this discussion is going, but I wanted to address a few points...
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True, but it was just coincidence. Sam and Gollum are the type of people who just don't get along. For no apparant reason they just hate each other.
I'm not sure "no apparent reason" is right. Gollum is a nasty, murderous, sneaking, corrupted being who wants to kill his master and take the ring and end their quest. Sam has never met such deplorable creatures, and is filled with disgust and dislike. He doesn't see what Frodo sees because he doesn't have the ringbearer's perspective or Frodo's wisdom. But really, Samis right to be suspicious, even though it is obvious that his insults have a negative effect on poor Smeagol, particularly in one instance of very bad timing that Smeagol doesn't forget. Shame...BUT:

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The main thing is, instead of a minor bad thing happening (Sam insulting Gollum), a major bad thing happens (Sam prevents Gollum's repentence). So Gollum would be a changed ring addict if Sam had been a good little hobbit. Well, that's a little crude, but you see what I mean, right?
Ah, but in the end a major major good thing happens, the distruction of the ring. I don't think Gollum could ever completely be saved, though he may have regained some of his lost "humanity/hobbitity". The ring is just too evil: it IS evil (noun, not adjective). You just can't carry evil around in your pocketses for years and not become corrupt. His sins can be forgiven, if you want, but he can't be saved (no, I didn't mean that to be Christian, just the language works...always appropriating everything...).

As for the ring, I always saw it having somewhat of a will of it's own, probably because lots of Sauron is wrapped up in it, and so it can actively play tricks and lose itself or be found or call evil things to it, but it can't really make it's owner do anything specific, only corrupt him. As for it's effect on those who haven't touched it (which is where the thread started [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] ), I think even for those who don't know what it is, it radiates evil and provokes desire for it. Those who have vices or vulnerabilities are obviously easier to corrupt, as well as those of less will-power. The heros in the fellowship are all remarkably strong people, especially the Hobbits. Boromir is the one with the chink in the armor that is his love and pride and desire to save his country, and his dispair and lack of hope and fear--all negative emotions which the ring can easily work with.

Last thought: perhaps the ring did have a little effect on the party of dwarves? I mean, it seems to be the greed for gold that almost starts a battle between men, elves and dwarves, but who knows? But really, the ring wasn't fully developed in the Hobbit, so it shouldn't be looked for for too many examples, I think...

Sorry, lot to catch up on!
In your last post, MLD-G-K-W, I think that good points are made. Smeagol got the ring by murder, and Bilbo by chance--Gandalf makes this point, and it's a good'un. It's not clear why Smeagol would be so suddenly captured by the ring that he would immediately kill for it, though. If a Stoor is a proto-Hobbit, Smeagol must have been a pretty weak and flawed one--but it was all downhill afterwards because of the way it started.

[ February 17, 2003: Message edited by: Dain ]
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Old 02-17-2003, 03:31 PM   #56
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Welcome Dain! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

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I'm not sure "no apparent reason" is right. Gollum is a nasty, murderous, sneaking, corrupted being who wants to kill his master and take the ring and end their quest.
I don't think Gollum always wanted to kill Frodo. Maybe when he was tracking them he did want to so he could get the ring, but when Frodo showed him mercy, love, compassion, and acceptance, I think he changed his mind. He still wanted the ring of course, and that's why he led them to the Shelob. In the time the ring had been lost from his possesion and in the time Frodo gave him a chance, I think that part of his mind that was still Smeagol's was still reletively small, but I think it was growing. So, he wanted to do the right thing, but he also wanted the ring. I think that Frodo had become a friend to him (or at least he thought so). So what does he do? He brings them to Shelob because he does not want to kill Frodo but he desperately needs that ring. He has Shelob kill Frodo to get the ring. And he kills Sam to get revenge. And by having Shelob kill Frodo, it is not a repeat of Deagol, which I think greatly tormented him for years and years. Also, I think the ring used that to corrupt Smeagol and to keep Gollum under its control. And he even used that story of the birthday present so many times that he kind of began to believe it. So, you can see how he greatly desires the ring but does not want to kill his friend, Frodo, for it.

Usually if you are like Sam and you meet someone like Gollum, you usually don't like them at all. However, you really don't hate him. If you hate him, he has to have done something to you that sparks the hatred. Atleast that's what it is like for me.But, you do bring up some good points about that when you said
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Sam has never met such deplorable creatures, and is filled with disgust and dislike.
I'm sort of used to that thing, but obviously Sam isn't.

and

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He doesn't see what Frodo sees because he doesn't have the ringbearer's perspective or Frodo's wisdom.
Although Sam does have the ring momentarily, he does not have it long enough to have the understanding that Frodo and Gollum have. Although he does have a glimpse, and that's why he does not kill Gollum on Mount Doom. So if Sam had that glimpse of bearing the ring while Gollum was still guiding them, do you think that Gollum's and Sam's relationship might have been different, if only slightly?

So, "no apparent reason" isn't the best way of putting it. And I have a bad hobbit (oops, I mean habit [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] ) for not putting things in their best way.

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Ah, but in the end a major major good thing happens, the distruction of the ring. I don't think Gollum could ever completely be saved, though he may have regained some of his lost "humanity/hobbitity". The ring is just too evil
Yes, the ring was destroyed, but that was coincidence. If I were in Sam's shoes, I would have helped Gollum, even if the ring would not be destroyed because I wouldn't even know that would happen anyways. So yes, good came out of it, but it was unintentional. It's really confusing and hard to explain, but do you see what I mean?

And I still believe that Gollum could have been saved. I'll argue that to the death. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

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As for the ring, I always saw it having somewhat of a will of it's own
Check out this thread Do you consider the ring a character in LotR?. I think you'll enjoy it. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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Old 02-17-2003, 03:47 PM   #57
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I think I agree with you on most points. I was just illustrating Sam's point of view at the time when he made the most hurtful remarks (accusing Gollum of sneaking when he wasn't, which turns Gollum back to the bad path). He's just very protective of Frodo and can't see Gollum's better side (well, he sees slinker and stinker, but likes neither all that well). I think the revulsion that most people (elves, Faramir's men) feel at the sight of Gollum is an indication of how bad Gollum seems--not just ugly but evil. He's rather cute in some of his funny lines in the book and the film, but really he isn't a very nice peice of work, and that's why Sam (and most) are so repulsed by him. We pity him, and forgive his faults, but we shouldn't forget his bad side. I agree that Sam should have been more accepting, but Gollum had that nagging desire for the ring in the back of his mind, even when he was Smeagol serving "nice master", so his suspicion isn't completely unfounded. Of course, it isn't productive either, and that's the shame of it. Sorry I went all over this again, I think we basically agree on this.

I'm not so sure about Gollum being "saveable," though. I don't know why, but I think even though he might be brought back to 90% of Smeagol and remember how to be partly his old self again, the effects of the ring cannot be completely washed off him. That's not his fault, and I think that saves him in a way, but he can not be brought back, if you see what I mean. It's not very clear what I mean, is it... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ February 17, 2003: Message edited by: Dain ]
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Old 02-17-2003, 03:51 PM   #58
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You explained that just fine, Dain. As with Frodo, the Ring's corruption would never be worn off, especially since he lived for 500 years in the mountains with the Ring!
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Old 02-17-2003, 04:54 PM   #59
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the effects of the ring cannot be completely washed off him
Ok, now I see what you mean. Yes that's true, there are some permenant effects of bearing the ring, especially for 500 years. But what I meant by being saved was that he didn't have to be his old self again, but be enough of his old self to be able to give up the ring. It's really hard to explain. Maybe what I mean is that he has to recover past 50% so that he has the majority of himself. I'm really not sure what I mean myself, sorry.
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Old 02-17-2003, 06:19 PM   #60
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Well, Sauron was not at the height of his powers, but I don't think that the ring has different levels of power. I believe that it is always at the same level. I think it was just as dangerous as it ever was and just as desirable.
Fair enough, Willie. I did not express it very well. But the Ring's power does vary, both in response to its Master's increasing power and in response to its proximity to Mordor. For example, it is Sauron's increasing power that causes it to abandon Gollum after some 500 years. As Gandalf says:

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So now, when its master was awake once more and sending out his dark thought from Mirkwood, it abandoned Gollum.
I always imagine the Ring to be a much more dangerous object at the time of Frodo's tenure as Ringbearer than at the time Bilbo was in possession of it. Bilbo's use of the Ring in the Hobbit has markedly less effect on him than it does on Frodo, when he uses it. I know that the idea of the Ring was not really developed when the Hobbit was written, but the concept works nevertheless. The Ring's effects on its bearer become much more marked with Sauron's growing power, and also the nearer the Ring comes to its Master and the fires in which it was forged. Sam experiences this in the Tower of Cirith Ungol:

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As it drew near the great furnaces where, in the depths of time, it had been shaped and forged, the Ring's power grew, and it became more fell, untameable save by some mighty will.
Dain, you said:

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As for the ring, I always saw it having somewhat of a will of it's own, probably because lots of Sauron is wrapped up in it, and so it can actively play tricks and lose itself or be found or call evil things to it, but it can't really make it's owner do anything specific, only corrupt him.
That, for me, is spot on. Gandalf makes the point that it is trying to get back to its Master, and this is why it slips its bearer at various points. And no, it can't directly force its bearer to do anything specific, but acts on its bearer's mind, trying to seize on perceived weaknesses, to make him act in a certain way. In particular, it seeks to make its bearer use it in such a way so as to make itself more apparent to its Master and his servants, for example by wearing it.

The analogy with a drug is a good one, since it can almost have a hallucinatory effect on its bearer's mind. We can see this most markedly when Sam wears the Ring:

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The world changed, and a single moment of time was filled with an hour of thought. At once he was aware that hearing was sharpened while sight was dimmed ... All things about him were not dark but vague; while he himself was there in a grey hazy world, alone like a small black solid rock, and the Ring, weighing down his left hand was like an orb of hot gold.
Then, later, in the Tower of Cirith Ungol:

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As Sam stood there, even though the Ring was not on him but hanging by its chain about his neck, he felt himself enlarged, as if he were robed in a huge distorted shadow of himself ... Already the Ring tempted him, gnawing at his will and reason. Wild fantasies arose in his mind; and he saw Samwise the Strong, Hero of the Age, striding with flaming sword across the darkened land, and armies flocking to his call as he marched to the overthrow of Barad-Dur. And then all the clouds rolled away, and the white sun shone, and at his command the vale of Gorgoroth became a garden of flowers and trees and brought forth fruit. He had only to put on the Ring and claim it as his own, and all this could be.
Very trippy! These passages, I think, best reflect the effect of the Ring on the bearer at the time when it is at the height of its powers, in the sense that Sauron's might is at its greatest since the Last Alliance and the Ring is as close to him and to its place of birth as it has been since then. And Sam was not even wearing the Ring when it sought to tempt him to seize it as his own.

But, as Dain pointed out, this thread is really about the effect on the Ring on those who do not touch it. That Boromir was the first of the Fellowship to succumb is not surpring, and the reasons have been explained in a number of posts above. But I still think that it could have corrupted any of them given sufficient time, and particularly the nearer they came to Mordor. And I get the sense that the Hobbits would have been the last to succumb, given their particular resilience to it.

Which brings me back to Smeagol/Gollum again, and to the question of why he succumbed so quickly, which I don't think has been fully explained yet. Yes, Willie, I agree that Smeagol/Gollum is particularly corrupted by it as its bearer and less able to give it up than the likes of Bilbo, because he came by it by murder. But that does not explain why he committed the murder in the first place, having practically just set eyes upon it.

It is said that Smeagol was a Stoor. But Stoors were Hobbits. As the prologue to LotR explains:

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Before crossing the mountains the Hobbits had already become divided into three somewhat different breeds: Harfoots, Stoors and Fallohides.
In fact, Gandalf guesses that his people were "of the hobbit-kind: akin to the fathers of the fathers of the Stoors". And I think that we can take Gandalf's guess as pretty accurate.

Willie, you said:

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I think that a big part of it was because of Smeagol himself. He was sort of the curious and greedy type. But I think an even bigger part of it was his knowledge of the ring. What did Smeagol know about the ring? Nothing. No one told him of the ring and its dangers or risks. It just happened to cross his path. So, the ring takes full advantage of his personal faults and his complete ignorance of the ring.
Well, Gandalf describes Smeagol as the "most inquisitive and curious-minded" of his family (which was a family of high repute amongst his folk). And greed is suggested by the fact that he is said to have murdered Deagol for the Ring "because it looked so bright and beautiful". But nowhere is it suggested that he was particularly evil or malicious before taking possession of the Ring.

I am still puzzled as to how a being of the Hobbit-kind, even an inquisitive and (possibly) greedy one, can be moved to murder his friend almost the instant he sees the Ring, simply because it is "bright and beautiful". The only explanation that I can think of is that his kind were less resistant to the Ring than Hobbits later became. But that to me is not a wholly adequate explanation. Does anyone have any further thoughts?
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Old 02-17-2003, 07:19 PM   #61
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Does anyone have any further thoughts?
On that subject just two. One came from earlier in this thread, a quote from one of Tolkien's Letters:
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The domination of the Ring was much too strong for the mean soul of Smeagol. But he would have never had to endure it if he had not become a mean sort of thief before it crossed his path. (letter #181)
The second thing that sticks with me, although it is short I believe it fits well with the Semagol/Deagol incident. It is from Elrond speaking at the Council in Rivendell:
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The very desire of it corrupts the heart.
The meaning of that sentence is quite clear. But what is not clear is whether or not that applies to one who does not know it is a Ring of Power, but rather thinks it's just a ring of beauty/value. I would guess it applies anyway because of the intelligence/power of the Ring, calling out to even the ignorant mind. It may have called to Smeagol, as if sensing his desires and his suitability for corruption. Perhaps being 'suitable for corruption' was not the case with Deagol and the Ring chose Smeagol, just a thought. Also, we have a plea in murder cases these days called crime of passion. His lapse may have been minute and due to overwhelming desire, but as to whether he regretted it, who knows, I don't think he did regret it. And if he didn't, then that throws out 'crime of passion' or 'momentary insanity' theories out. Because how could the Ring be 100% control in such a short (less than a day) period of time? It wasn't. So my conclusion is that Smeagol was a mean little sort who was not against murder for the right reason, the Ring pushed him just enough by amplifying his desires, the murder took place and Smeagol went about his business of being mean again. His tricks got worse and worse due to the Rings influence, his heart got twisted more and more, and eventually he was booted out by his Grandmother. Then eventually came isolation and unfathomable torture for the next 500 years at the whims of the Ring.

Kinda rambled on at the end there, but that's my take. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ February 17, 2003: Message edited by: Tar-Palantir ]
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Old 02-17-2003, 07:34 PM   #62
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Thanks for the reference to the letter, Tar-Palantir. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] It is the first solid evidence that I have seen that Smeagol was an unsavoury character before taking the Ring. And it certainly does help in explaining the almost instantaneous effect of the Ring on him, although it also upsets my image of pre-Ring Smeagol. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

Clearly, he becomes twisted (further) under the Ring's influence, although Gandalf does refer to the murder of Deagol haunting him(the reason for him creating the pretence of it the Ring being his birthday present), which suggests that he may have felt some remorse.
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Old 02-17-2003, 07:38 PM   #63
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Willie, I think I understand what you mean about Smeagol being saved, and I agree. Not 100% recovery, but enough to realize, maybe, the evil that he has become and the desire to change and give up the precious (which we basically see in the two-faced debate in the film, but I can't remember that being as strong in the book).

Here's a thought on why the ring took Smeagol so quickly: it had been lying there so long (2400 years!), perhaps it was releasing all it's pent-up, evil, "come-and-get-me" power into the first promising thing to disturb it? I mean, I also thought that Smeagol was a bit bad before he got the ring, and that that helped. However, the ring was probably so desparate for attention at that point that it just warped the poor hobbit's mind so fast he didn't know what hit him. (Sorry the word choice is a bit vague and colloquial, but I think you get the gist of my idea). Do you think the ring preferred Smeagol to Deagol in any way? Maybe it sensed an easier target, or maybe it had no idea and didn't care. Interesting...
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Old 02-17-2003, 08:21 PM   #64
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it had been lying there so long (2400 years!), perhaps it was releasing all it's pent-up, evil, "come-and-get-me" power into the first promising thing to disturb it?
That's a very interesting thought. I think that might be the case, however we cannot be sure. And it brings me to another thought. Thinking of the ring as another character again, do you think it has sort of a stamina? If the ring had all that power building up, it could have been sort of training. It might have just been thinking of how it was going to get back to its master and preparing itself for the first chance that comes along. So it was ready for Deagol and Smeagol. But when Smeagol took it to the mountain, I think that the ring began to battle with Gollum's mind. It kept fighting to get out of the mountain I'm sure. And it probably did some serious damage by corrupting Gollum's mind, even though he put up a tough fight. So the ring slips off Gollum and is picked up by Bilbo. Now maybe the ring didn't really corrupt him because the ring was exhausted from the battle with Gollum. It's just a thought, but I find it rather interesting.

And
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Do you think the ring preferred Smeagol to Deagol in any way?
That is one thing I have always wondered myself. I wonder if the ring wanted Smeagol to take the ring, or if Smeagol all by himself did and the ring didn't expect that. Hmmm...

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But the Ring's power does vary
Yeah, you're right. But it wouldn't matter anyways since the dwarves didn't know about it.

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I always imagine the Ring to be a much more dangerous object at the time of Frodo's tenure as Ringbearer than at the time Bilbo was in possession of it.
Do you think this has anything to do with the stamina idea? I think that that could be a factor, since teh ring had time to recover strength. But, also in The Hobbit, the focus of the story is no the treasure and Smaug, not the ring. But in LotR, the focus is on the ring, so it is more suspenseful there, whereas in the hobbit it wasn't. And besides that, the ring wasn't as developed in The Hobbit as you mentioned.
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Old 02-17-2003, 08:45 PM   #65
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I'm not sure the ring has stamina, really. And I don't see it as being controlling in a way that it could have made Gollum leave the mountain, but it could get lost in the hopes of leaving the mountain itself, and draw Bilbo and his groping fingers right to itself. I think what I meant was sort of that it would have tried to glow really really brightly and beautifully and temptingly (figuratively) when the unfortunate pair found it because it wanted to be found and this was it's first and last chance for a while, besides the nassty fishes.

I think the strength of the ring depends mostly on whether Sauron is back and looking for it, eh? I mean, that's why it left Gollum, anyway. But then, Sauron was kicked out of Dol Goldur and the ring went back to low-power standby for a while, and was also luckily in the hands of some rather innocent, simple, unknowing and downright good folk, so it was thwarted for years. I forget what the real timings were like (film confusion, ack!), but if anybody had been using it when Sauron was really getting going in Mordor again, I bet it would have exerted a stronger corrupting influence and/or found someway to lose itself. I don't think it could have made Bilbo march to Mordor, but Bag End might have turned into a little Gollum-cave... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Does the timing work at all? When did Bilbo surrender the ring and how strong was Sauron then compared to the long years when he had it?

[ February 17, 2003: Message edited by: Dain ]
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Old 02-18-2003, 10:38 PM   #66
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Regarding Gollum's capacity for redemption: Dain wrote:

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Ah, but in the end a major major good thing happens, the distruction of the ring. I don't think Gollum could ever completely be saved, though he may have regained some of his lost "humanity/hobbitity".
In The Letters of JRR Tolkien Tolkien wrote that if Gollum had managed differently to get the Ring from Frodo that the focus would have shifted from Frodo to Gollum. Tolkien said that, logically, Gollum would have then been able to see the futility of the whole thing--he would never be able to withstand Sauron given his location. Add to this Gollum's fear and hatred of Sauron, his love for Frodo, thwarted as it may have been, and his desire to keep the Ring, the only thing to do would be to keep the Ring and jump into Doom. Tolkien suggests that all this may have actually occurred to Gollum as he began to fall.

There are several replies I want to make, so instead of one, long gargantuan post, I'm going to do 2-3 shorter ones.

On to #2.
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Old 02-18-2003, 10:51 PM   #67
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Regarding Sam's seeming extreme animosity toward Gollum, Grounds-Keeper Willie wrote:

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Usually if you are like Sam and you meet someone like Gollum, you usually don't like them at all. However, you really don't hate him. If you hate him, he has to have done something to you that sparks the hatred.
This is another reference to Letters of JRR Tolkien again--Tolkien made a brief mention of Sam's being jealous of Gollum. I think that if I had slogged through muck & mire slogging and toiling away on his behalf and Frodo was getting a bit testy w/me, and then I see Frodo trusting and having all that pity and special consideration for Gollum, I might be a tad sharp-tongued myself.

And when I am tempted to be sharp with either pen or tongue in "real" life, it helps me to remember the effect of Sam's behavior toward Gollum.
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Old 02-18-2003, 11:54 PM   #68
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Here's #3 and the last one for now.

Re how/why certain characters responded differently to the Ring ...

This question assumes that the Ring, the embodiment of evil, has a linear, black and white cause-and-effect relationship to those around it/carrying it. It presumes that evil always looks/feels/is a certain identifiable way--that it has logic and reasoning.

Evil is insane, subtle, baffling, and yet strangely simple. If I understand Tolkien's & CS Lewis' approach towards evil, it is that it is more like a 2 year-old on a 2 week tweak-out. It has no sense or even reference point for right or wrong, good or bad--it only wants what it wants with an intense single-minded intent on having it. It works best in the dark alone with its object. And when it goes unchecked, it will eventually destroy its host. This leads back to the questions re Gollum & Boromir vs. Frodo & Bilbo and others in proximity to the Ring.

Both Gollum & Boromir were similar in that they were solitary types who kept their own counsel. They were also primarily concerned with self and what they wanted. Frodo & Bilbo were very connected to other people and to the earth as were all the others who resisted the Ring. Gollum and Boromir did not look much further past their own desires; the Frodo & Bilbo, et al, sought connection and harmony w/the earth. Saruman fits in with this tack as well--a loner, concerned with his own ambition/desire, he is corrupted by desire for the Ring under Sauron's influence.

Dain wrote:
Quote:
Here's a thought on why the ring took Smeagol so quickly: it had been lying there so long (2400 years!), perhaps it was releasing all it's pent-up, evil, "come-and-get-me" power into the first promising thing to disturb it?
This same idea occurred to me as I was reading through the latest posts on this thread (and I've read all of them). I think there's something to this.

In 2460 (Third Age), the Appendix to LotR says that "Sauron returns with increased strength to Dol Guldur." In 2463, Deagol "finds" the Ring. And, as was also mentioned earlier, the Ring left Gollum in the Misty Mountains at the same time Sauron emerged from Mirkwood. Clearly, the Ring makes a strong effort in response to Sauron's energy. It would make sense that after over 2,000 years at the bottom of a river the Ring would exert a considerable influence since Sauron had moved out in the open.

I guess my intention with all of this is to emphasize that the question of who/how responded in what way to the Ring is an interesting and worthy question, but it is when we examine our assumptions about evil and Love that it becomes a matter of profound importance.

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Old 02-18-2003, 11:59 PM   #69
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Frodo & Bilbo, et al, sought connection and harmony w/the earth
Ahem ... this should have read, " ... sought connection with others with others and harmony w/the earth." [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
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Old 02-19-2003, 02:52 AM   #70
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Both Gollum & Boromir were similar in that they were solitary types who kept their own counsel. They were also primarily concerned with self and what they wanted. Frodo & Bilbo were very connected to other people and to the earth as were all the others who resisted the Ring. Gollum and Boromir did not look much further past their own desires
I think you are being a bit unfair to Boromir. He was a bit of a loner in the Fellowship because he was the only representative of his people and the rest were friends already (bar Gimli, but Legolas seemed to fit in). If we hear about his exploits in Gondor, he was not selfish, necessarily, but proud and headstrong, and a very valiant warrior and beloved captain. He was just overcome by fear and years of constant fighting with little or no hope, and then the thought of sending a Hobbit (something he'd never seen before, but looked like a child) into Mordor with it seemed like a terrible idea to him. He was looking for a way to save his people, and I think that's how the ring got to him, not because he thougth only of himself and not of others--on the contrary he was always thinking of Gondor. But, that's probably another thread.
Quote:
It would make sense that after over 2,000 years at the bottom of a river the Ring would exert a considerable influence since Sauron had moved out in the open.
I agree. The fact that the ring is found three years after Sauron's return is a big clue to how it responds to his power, and backs up my earlier post, I think.

[ February 19, 2003: Message edited by: Dain ]
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Old 02-19-2003, 12:03 PM   #71
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Gollum and Boromir did not look much further past their own desires
Whoa, I don't agree that Boromir didn't look past his own desires.
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Old 02-19-2003, 12:53 PM   #72
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SaucepanMan:
Did Dwarves have any particular resistance, or would Gimli have succumbed? Bilbo's Dwarvish companions exhibit no particular desire for it, but then it was not at the height of its powers at that time.

The answer to that is quite simple. Gimli of course, could have succumbed. He would have succumbed because the ring does have somewhat of a degree of power over each and every race. You will remember the only thing in ME that it has absolutely no affect on is Tom Bombadil, and lets face it, NO ONE knows who or what he is at all. Gimli, however, would have without question been the last to succum to the rings power. My evidence to this effect is because each of the rings given to the dwarves were not specifically meant to govern their race but to give power to shape gold and craft jewelry, ETC. Since most of the power of the dwarven rings were devoted to the shaping of gold that was how the ring would have corrupted dwaves: through desire of gold. This would cause Gimli to have fallen last since it would have least effect on him. Some may argue the Legolas would have fallen last for somewhat the same reason (since the Elvish rings were moreso meant to heal hurts of the land than to govern elves and since Sauron never even directly touch the Elven rings and since he had no part in making them) this point is valid but is negated because when Sauron crafted the one ring he obviously had elves in mind knowing that they would be his biggest opponents in ME. This specific targeting of elves by the power of the ring is shown by the effect it had on Galadriel herself "I do not deny that my heart has greatly desired this." Since she was the greatest of the Noldor, equalled in greatness only be Faenor himself and being wiser (Faenor only being considered her equal because of his skill with weapons and crafts) her barely passing the test shows that Legolas would not nearly have the stuff to pass it being not even of Noldorin origin. Well, there is my arguement, let the logic-holes be pointed out ASAP please *grin*.

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Old 02-20-2003, 01:04 AM   #73
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Dain writes: [quote] I think you are being a bit unfair to Boromir. He was a bit of a loner in the Fellowship because he was the only representative of his people and the rest were friends already (bar Gimli, but Legolas seemed to fit in). [QUOTE]

What was Aragorn ... chopped liver? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Dain continues:
Quote:
If we hear about his exploits in Gondor, he was not selfish, necessarily, but proud and headstrong, and a very valiant warrior and beloved captain. He was just overcome by fear and years of constant fighting with little or no hope, and then the thought of sending a Hobbit (something he'd never seen before, but looked like a child) into Mordor with it seemed like a terrible idea to him. He was looking for a way to save his people, and I think that's how the ring got to him, not because he thougth only of himself and not of others--on the contrary he was always thinking of Gondor.

and Hilde writes:
Quote:
Whoa, I don't agree that Boromir didn't look past his own desires.
Yes, Boromir is concerned about Gondor, but not quite to the altruistic extent portrayed in the movie.

Let me amend my previous post's statement slightly ...
The glory of Gondor was Boromir's [I]personal agenda[I]. He was undeniably brave and valiant, but he was undeniably afflicted by envy, pride, and vanity. Refer to "The Council of Elrond" ...

Quote:
...a hundred and ten days I have journeyed all alone
so he has been in isolation for a fair amount of time. (This addresses the solitary aspect in common w/Gollum mentioned earlier.)

Then there is his recitation of Faramir's recurrent dream, which Boromir had only once, and although both the dream and their father supported Faramir to go to Rivendell, Boromir usurped Faramir's appointed task. Listen to his choice of words and what they imply about his personality:

[quote] Therefore my brother, seeing how desperate was our need, was eager to heed the dream and seek for Imladris; but since the way was full of doubt and danger, I took the journey upon myself. Loth was my father to give me leave, and long have I wandered by roads forgotten, seeking the house of Elrond, of which many had heard, but few knew where it lay. [QUOTE] There's a note of overweening pride and a bit of an inferiority complex. He seems almost obsessed with proving himself. He's also whining a bit. If anyone has a right to sing the blues, it's Aragorn, who does relate his case. But the tone is markedly different--no whining or pride.

Then we see his doubt and suspicion of Aragorn's claim--which, unlike his skepticism about the hobbits, is unjustified.

Quote:
I was not sent to beg any boon, but to seek only the meaning of a riddle,' answered Boromir proudly. 'Yet we are hard preseed, and the Sword of Elendil would be a help beyond our hope--if such a thing could indeed return out of the shadows of the apst.' He looked again at Aragorn, and doubt was in his eyes.
This does not seem all that important until you read the appendix. Here we learn the background behind why Boromir looked at Aragorn with suspicion at Rivendell. In fact, to Boromir, Aragorn is an actual threat. Check out the section in Appendix A toward the end of "The Stewards" that begins with "Ecthelion II, son of Turgon ..." When you figure out who Thorongil was, and considering how Boromir felt about his father you begin to get a different picture of Boromir. In the book, he is not quite the lovable guy Sean Bean played so very well (best death scene of all time, IMO).

The last part of this section of Appendix A says:

Quote:
...Boromir, five years the elder, beloved by his father, was like him in face and pride, but in little else. Rather he was a man after the sort of King Earnur of old [who went off to battle Sauron mano a mano and was never heard of again, leaving Gondor without a king], taking no wife and delighting chiefly in arms; fearless and strong, but caring little for lore, save the tales of old battles.
Again, note the implication of being a loner--no wife.

It then talks about Faramir saying a little further on:

[QUOTE] ... by many in those days his courage was judged less than his brother's. But it was not so, except that he did not seek glory in danger without a purpose.[QUOTE]

At one point, Boromir urges his father to renounce stewardship and claim kingship of Gondor. Even Denethor sees the hubris in this and chides Boromir by saying that "10,000 years is not enough time" to weaken the oath of Stewards of Gondor; other, lesser houses may do such things, but not those whose heritage is Numenor. (Maybe someone knows where this is? I just saw the whole quote last night, but for the life of me, I cannot find it now!)

There is also mention in one of the reference books to LotR of Denethor and the preceding stewards scorning the possibility of Isildur's heir (whomever he might down through the generations) resuming kingship. Probably because they felt they had stayed faithful to Gondor while its kings abandoned Gondor either for vainglorious reasons like Earnur or the heirs of Isildur hid out with the elves and then left to run off with the Dunedain up north.

At any rate, no ... Boromir was not an evil man, but, yes ... he had a weakness and it was pride and desire for glory through power (kingship, being the "bossy brother" cited in Appendix A, etc.). This was how he did not see past his own desires and this is what he had in common with Gollum.

I know it seems mean to liken Boromir to Gollum, but evil is an equal opportunity slavemaster. And, again, we're talking about the book Boromir.

I tried to clean up the messy quote separations. I've got the hang of cut/paste/copy etc., but dial-up is heck! I apologize for the crazy quiltedness.

Peace.

[ February 20, 2003: Message edited by: dininziliel ]
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Old 02-20-2003, 03:17 AM   #74
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I admit, it's a little while since I read FotR, so I may have been overly influenced by wonderul Sean Bean. When I said Boromir was the only representative of his people, I meant Gondor, and possibly his point of view on it. I mean, Aragorn is, as you noted, a sort of threat to him--but the film portrayal also brought out the fact that Boromir didn't think much of Aragorn for staying away. So, the only two men in the party don't have much chance of getting along, which further isolates Boromir. He, who used to command, now has to follow Gandalf and then Aragorn and listen to the council of Elrond, all of whom he respects, of course, but he's so obsessed with Gondor and it's struggle that he has problems with anyone he sees as not actively helping. Basically, Boromir is a much more "ordinary" man than Aragorn or Denethor or Faramir, who are all embued with the last sparks of the greatness of Numenor.

About Dwarves, I don't think Gimli would have had any better chance at resisting. The Dwarf rings were tainted and made Thrain and Thror eventually go mad, and I don't know what the one would have offered a Dwarf, either. See my earlier posts about Dwarves and the ring in the Hobbit. Anyway, it just wasn't his (or Legolas) burden to take up, so I think that's the main reason they didn't pick it up. Plot-wise it would have been very silly; the hobbits were meant to do it.
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Old 02-20-2003, 12:09 PM   #75
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Dininziliel, I still do not agree with your assessment of Boromir. Yes, yes, I remember those passages, but feel your interpretation of them is tainted by preconceptions. Perhaps my own is as well.

There is a big difference between a proud man who is obsessed with what he feels his duty is, and a bossy and self-serving one. Most people, even heroes are flawed.

I do feel that Boromir was in a bad place at a bad time, yet he was the next in line to the steward’s role. He hadn’t the subtlety or temperament to handle it, but he tried to do what he thought was right with great vigor. Possibly modeling himself on those he could identify with or admire. And he had been trained to be self reliant.

As far as Thorongil was concerned, he was under cover and left Gondor long before Boromir was around. I don’t see anyway that he could have made the connection to Aragorn or possibly have known how well traveled and experienced he was. (I do think Aragorn was concerned that Denethor might recognize him and this was one of the reasons he tried to avoid entering Minas Tirith prematurely.)

Boromir was like his father in pride. I think that his behavoir in Rivendell echoed this.

Sorry this is so rushed but I wanted to respond.

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Old 02-20-2003, 07:22 PM   #76
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SaucepanMan: Did Dwarves have any particular resistance, or would Gimli have succumbed? ...

The answer to that is quite simple. Gimli of course, could have succumbed. He would have succumbed because the ring does have somewhat of a degree of power over each and every race.
Quote:
About Dwarves, I don't think Gimli would have had any better chance at resisting.
I thoroughly agree. As I said earlier:

Quote:
But I still think that it could have corrupted any of [the Fellowship] given sufficient time, and particularly the nearer they came to Mordor. And I get the sense that the Hobbits would have been the last to succumb, given their particular resilience to it.
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Old 02-20-2003, 08:50 PM   #77
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I like Faramir's summation of Boromir's traits the best:
Quote:
If it were a thing that gave advantage in battle, I can well believe that Boromir, the proud and fearless, often rash, ever anxious for the victory of Minas Tirith (and his own glory therein), might desire such a thing and be allured by it.
Parentheses are from the text, not my commentary. Add to this the insidiously alluring nature of the Ring and you have an explosive mixture.
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Old 02-20-2003, 11:34 PM   #78
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What he (Tar-Palantir) said ... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Also, Boromir (Denethor, too) should have been welcoming Aragorn with open arms (no pun intended) and all due propers despite their historically-based attitude. But they were unwilling to do that because they had already been corrupted by pride & fear. Well, actually, pride is a product of fear, but we've already been there and done that re greed & fear.

I was most interested in the movie portrayal of Boromir. It was very important that he be written for the screen as in the book. He was the character easiest for us Fourth Agers to relate to. In fact, now that I think of it, he may be the only character in all of LotR, Hobbit, Silmarillion who is so accessible to us.

I have a special fondness for Boromir, though it may not have seemed like it. It is because I can see how I would have done what he did (well, maybe not the fighting 'cause I'm just a goil [img]smilies/redface.gif[/img] ). And because his final redemption and the part he played in Frodo's doing what Frodo had to do just about broke my heart--book and movie.

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Old 02-21-2003, 07:21 PM   #79
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Quote:
Also, Boromir (Denethor, too) should have been welcoming Aragorn with open arms (no pun intended) and all due propers despite their historically-based attitude. But they were unwilling to do that because they had already been corrupted by pride & fear. Well, actually, pride is a product of fear, but we've already been there and done that re greed & fear.
I was turning this over in my mind and wondered how I would feel if it suddenly made sense for the US to be ruled by the UK again. (I know it's vastly different) But British rule was just yesterday compared to the stretch of time from Elendil to Denethor! I don't know...it's just another point to ponder. Both may have had common language etc. but the culture and politics are different. Don't you suppose Boromir and Denethor might have seen a king of the Arnor line as an outsider?

Quote:
On the death of Ondoher and his sons, Arvedui of the North Kingdom claimed the crown of Gondor, as the direct descendant of Isildur, and as the husband of Firiel, only surviving child of Ondoher. The claim was rejected. In this Pelender, the Steward of Ondoher, played the chief part.

The Council of Gondor answered: "The crown and royalty of Gondor belongs solely to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anarion, to whom Isildur relinquished this realm. In Gondor this heritage is reckoned through the sons only; and we have not heard that the law is otherwise in Arnor."

Appendix A of LoTR
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Old 02-21-2003, 07:37 PM   #80
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Don't you suppose Boromir and Denethor might have seen a king of the Arnor line as an outsider?
I agree, it's hard to expect them to be happy about the man who's going to come and take back the thing they've dedicated their lives to protecting, and relagate them back to vassaldom. Yes, theoretically they should welcome Aragorn with open arms, but you can't fault them for being a little resentful--especially of some dirty ranger out of the north. I must say again that I loved the way Sean Bean played it in the films--sometimes resentful and jealous, sometimes excited about the return of his king. I can't remember how exactly it came off in the book. Anyway, it's all a bit OT, this Boromir discussion (not saying I mind, but...). Does that mean we're all satisfied with the ring discussion? I know I've enjoyed it. Cheers!
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