The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > Novices and Newcomers
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-02-2010, 03:53 PM   #1
Laurinquë
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Laurinquë's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 385
Laurinquë has been trapped in the Barrow!
Question Why Entwives? Must trees be bound in matrimony?

I may be grievously ignorant, but it seems odd to me that female Ents should be distinctly referred to as Entwives. Could there be no independent female Ents that did not feel the need to be seen as a 'wife'? What were Tolkien's reasons for their naming? It certainly seems evident from the Ent-lore in the trilogy that female Ents were independent, capable, individuals who were more than happy to do as they pleased without help from male Ents. So why the all the emphasis on matrimony in their name?

Thoughts?
Laurinquë is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2010, 05:13 PM   #2
wilwarin538
Fluttering Enchantment
 
wilwarin538's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,661
wilwarin538 is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.wilwarin538 is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Send a message via MSN to wilwarin538
Maybe he didn't mean it to be 'wife' in the sense of matrimony. The word comes from the Old English 'wif' which from what I can tell only meant 'woman', it didn't necessarily have a connection to marriage. Also if you consider the word 'midwife', that does not necessarily have to apply to someone who is married, and actually literally means 'woman who is with'. So even though we would assume 'wives' means marriage, perhaps Tolkien was not using the word in that sense?
__________________
Comme une étoile amarante Comme un papillon de nuit C'est la lumière qui m'attire La flamme qui m'éblouit
Fenris Muffin
wilwarin538 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2010, 05:19 PM   #3
Rumil
Sage & Onions
 
Rumil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Britain
Posts: 894
Rumil has been trapped in the Barrow!
Eye

Possibly for the same reason as the 'Husbandmen' of Gondor?
__________________
Rumil of Coedhirion
Rumil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2010, 06:40 PM   #4
Laurinquë
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Laurinquë's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 385
Laurinquë has been trapped in the Barrow!
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilwarin538 View Post
Maybe he didn't mean it to be 'wife' in the sense of matrimony. The word comes from the Old English 'wif' which from what I can tell only meant 'woman', it didn't necessarily have a connection to marriage. Also if you consider the word 'midwife', that does not necessarily have to apply to someone who is married, and actually literally means 'woman who is with'. So even though we would assume 'wives' means marriage, perhaps Tolkien was not using the word in that sense?
That is quite plausible, but it still "with"? With what? Ent + with (if we assume wife means a woman who is with) a woman who is with an Ent. They are of the Ent species, so are they with themselves or . . . I think I am confusing myself here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumil
Possibly for the same reason as the 'Husbandmen' of Gondor?
Possibly. But the whole idea just seems so unnecessary. Husbandmen huh?
Laurinquë is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2010, 06:56 PM   #5
Eönwë
Flame Imperishable
 
Eönwë's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Right here
Posts: 3,995
Eönwë is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Eönwë is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Eönwë is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurinquë View Post
That is quite plausible, but it still "with"? With what? Ent + with (if we assume wife means a woman who is with) a woman who is with an Ent. They are of the Ent species, so are they with themselves or . . . I think I am confusing myself here.
I think she means midwife, which I believe comes from the Old English mid (with) + wif (woman).

Entwif, which would be translated as "giant-woman" from Old English, would easily be able to turn into Entwife over time.
__________________
Welcome to the Barrow Do-owns Forum / Such a lovely place
Eönwë is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2010, 06:59 PM   #6
wilwarin538
Fluttering Enchantment
 
wilwarin538's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,661
wilwarin538 is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.wilwarin538 is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Send a message via MSN to wilwarin538
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurinquë View Post
That is quite plausible, but it still "with"? With what? Ent + with (if we assume wife means a woman who is with) a woman who is with an Ent. They are of the Ent species, so are they with themselves or . . . I think I am confusing myself here.
Haha, I actually meant that the word 'midwife' means 'woman who is with', the wife part meaning woman, and the 'who is with' part referring to 'mid'. I was just saying that the word 'wife' is the suffix in that word as it is for 'entwife', but it is used only to refer to women, not necessarily marriage, so perhaps it is the same for entwives.

Basically what Eonwe just said.
__________________
Comme une étoile amarante Comme un papillon de nuit C'est la lumière qui m'attire La flamme qui m'éblouit
Fenris Muffin
wilwarin538 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2010, 04:27 PM   #7
Galadriel55
Blossom of Dwimordene
 
Galadriel55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,299
Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Also, you say "man and wife", not husband and wife. so it makes sense that wife means woman
__________________
You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera
Galadriel55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2010, 05:03 PM   #8
Mithalwen
Pilgrim Soul
 
Mithalwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,916
Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...hlight=midwife

This thread might be of interest.

Originally man mean person and was genderneutral- a man in our usage was a wereman while a woman was a wyfman.
__________________
“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”

Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace
Mithalwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2010, 02:29 PM   #9
Galadriel55
Blossom of Dwimordene
 
Galadriel55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,299
Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
exactly: wyfman = wife man
here you go! wife means woman
__________________
You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera
Galadriel55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2010, 06:05 AM   #10
Morthoron
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
 
Morthoron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,528
Morthoron is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Morthoron is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Morthoron is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Morthoron is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Morthoron is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurinquë View Post
What were Tolkien's reasons for their naming? It certainly seems evident from the Ent-lore in the trilogy that female Ents were independent, capable, individuals who were more than happy to do as they pleased without help from male Ents. So why the all the emphasis on matrimony in their name?
I may be going out on a limb, but I don't beleaf Tolkien was willing to bough to poplar concerns regarding the ent's family tree. But the roots of such naming conventions are not my branch of study.
__________________
And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision.
Morthoron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2010, 04:17 PM   #11
Mithadan
Spirit of Mist
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 3,310
Mithadan is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Mithadan is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Ohhhhh! The pain!
__________________
Beleriand, Beleriand,
the borders of the Elven-land.
Mithadan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2010, 04:59 PM   #12
Raynor
Eagle of the Star
 
Raynor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
Raynor has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
What were Tolkien's reasons for their naming? It certainly seems evident from the Ent-lore in the trilogy that female Ents were independent, capable, individuals who were more than happy to do as they pleased without help from male Ents. So why the all the emphasis on matrimony in their name?
What if wife did indeed mean the spouse of the Ent? What if they were actually supposed to be in harmony with their husbands? Didn't this independent streak (or divisive if you will), plus desire to control and bend the environment develop the more they went East - towards Sauron? Corruption is in all matter, and it does manifest itself sooner or later - why wouldn't their behavior, and the fall of the Ent race as a result, be a sign of that?
__________________
"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free."
Raynor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2010, 06:11 PM   #13
Galadriel55
Blossom of Dwimordene
 
Galadriel55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,299
Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Maybe. I wouldn't say that their going toward Sauron matters very much, but because they've left the Ents are bound to die out.
__________________
You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera
Galadriel55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:05 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.