The Orgins of Ents - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Losthuniel · 07-08-2002, 06:59 PM

In the Sil, it said that Yavanna created the Ents, But in LotR, Treebeard says the ents were ents when the elves spoke to them, and taught them language. and it also says in the Sil thatthe elves met ents in the forests.
niw I'm confused. someone help me sort this out?

The Silver-shod Muse · 07-08-2002, 07:26 PM

Maybe the Ents were more tree-ish when Yavanna first made them, but when the elves met them they learned language and became more like the Elves and less like simple shepherds of trees.

akhtene · 07-08-2002, 07:41 PM

Ents - a people (race ??) created by Yavanna, tree-herds and guardians of ovlar. They have their own language (Entish) but can speak Quenya and other languages as well.

Fangorn tells hobbits about trees which were awakened by elves, taught their language,and became kind of entish. Some of them are quite evil ('have bad hearts'). I think the Old Man Willow is an example of such a tree.
Perhaps entish trees = huorns (I'm not sure) .

Anna Licumo · 07-08-2002, 07:53 PM

I *think* that when she made them, they were trees, and as Manwe said:

Quote:

"When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared. For a time: while the Firstborn are in thier power, and while the Secondborn are young."

So the Elves awoke the sleeping Ents by awakening themselves and letting the Song of Yavanna in. Also, the Ents go when the Elves do. Hope that helps. I could be seriously wrong; I don't have the book on hand, and I tried my best for a correct quote, but who knows?

Aldagrim Proudfoot · 07-09-2002, 08:27 AM

Didn't Eru allow the Ents to be made to protect the trees from the Dwarves?

Daniel Telcontar · 07-09-2002, 08:47 AM

Yes, because Yavanna feared that the dwarves, as well as other races, wouldn't care for the trees but cut them down as they saw fit. So Yavanna was kind of the first greenpeace member. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Evisse the Blue · 09-02-2002, 03:13 AM

I'm bringing back this topic because I got a question. Treebeard says at least twice that he is the oldest thing in ME ( I don't have the exact quote though)
How do you reconcile this with Tom Bombadil being the oldest and the Elves being the First born?
ALso, what exactly is the relationship between trees and ents? Ents are said to be the 'shepards of trees' but they themsleves can become trees and vice versa. Hoomm, confusing...

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 09-05-2002, 12:33 PM

I have been wondering why Iluvatar at first didn't want Aule to create the Dwarves, then let Yavanna create Ents with apparently no objection.

Surely Iluvatar would have known that Men, let alone Dwarves, would cut down trees, yet he didn't do anything about it at first.

doug*platypus · 01-11-2004, 06:48 PM

Quote:

I have been wondering why Iluvatar at first didn't want Aule to create the Dwarves, then let Yavanna create Ents with apparently no objection.

Yavanna's motives were considerably less selfish. Aulë wanted minions, almost, while Yavanna wanted to protect the things that she had already created with the will of Ilúvatar.

I was under the impression that the Ents weren't created or awoken by the Eldar. The Elves only taught them to speak, if I remember correctly.

Finwe · 01-11-2004, 07:50 PM

Yes, but Iluvatar wanted the Elves to be the Eldest of the Children of Iluvatar (both "biological" (Elves and Men) and "adopted" (Dwarves and Ents)), so he told Yavanna that the Ents would have to wake up at least at the same time as the Elves, so as not to mess up his plan for the seeming greater good of Arda.

Lost One · 01-12-2004, 04:31 PM

I find it interesting that Yavanna is said to have sent spirits among the kelvar and olvar, i.e. to inhabit animals as well was plants, which suggest (or even downright states) that is isn't just the ents being brought into existence here. Perhaps this gets us out of all the agonising about Thorondor, Gwaihir, Huan and all the other apparently sentient animals.

Eruantalon · 01-12-2004, 11:44 PM

All was quit and like a seed. All things waited for the first born. The Quandi, Eldar, Elves, Pointy ears!

They could not come before the Eldar. Yet the where not children made by Eru. Aule had skill with speach and words. Where Yavanna didn't.

Aule didn't want minions. He was anxious to have some one to teach his wonders too. He just wanted people to show the beautrys of knowledge and the earth too.

Yet Eru being the boss wouldn't want anyone comming before his Eldar. So they have to wait.

Yavanna sits there thinking too herself now....." There will be Dwarfs, Men, Elves and animals all in my forrest. Maybe I should have something that tends to it. But I have talk to Manwe first."

Manwe and Yavannas music in the great void mingled at times. When her great trees streched out to the skys. Birds came to here trees. He like the earth and the forrest too. And didn't think it was fair.

So she made them. Aule made his own people. Yet you have to remember there not Eru. So they can't actualy give beings a lot of things that Erus has.

Language and awareness or real life apart from what they have made. They all have there seperate talents. They all have to work togther to get things done. Sorry if I drone on. The Ents are my favorite parts of the story!

Aule being an earth Valar gives Dwarfs his talents and language.

Yavanna gives ents her talents. Also great strenth. Since they come from the earth and grow slowly with great strength.

Bombadillo being an Aniu ( I think) would be older than Treebeard. Yet Treebeard would be the oldest "living thing" ( as in planted or grown.)

Hope that helps?

07-08-2002, 06:59 PM	#1
Losthuniel Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: The Helcaraxë- aka Canada Posts: 261	The Orgins of Ents In the Sil, it said that Yavanna created the Ents, But in LotR, Treebeard says the ents were ents when the elves spoke to them, and taught them language. and it also says in the Sil thatthe elves met ents in the forests. niw I'm confused. someone help me sort this out? __________________ ~* Losthuniel "Lord, what fools these mortals be!" Puck, Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream Abhorsen's House -- Lirael/Sabriel fanboard

07-08-2002, 07:26 PM	#2
The Silver-shod Muse Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: The shoulder of a poet, TX Posts: 388	Maybe the Ents were more tree-ish when Yavanna first made them, but when the elves met them they learned language and became more like the Elves and less like simple shepherds of trees. __________________ "'You," he said, "tell her all. What good came to you? Do you rejoice that Maleldil became a man? Tell her of your joys, and of what profit you had when you made Maleldil and death acquainted.'" -Perelandra, by C.S. Lewis

07-08-2002, 07:41 PM	#3
akhtene Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2002 Location: stronghold of the North Posts: 390	Ents - a people (race ??) created by Yavanna, tree-herds and guardians of ovlar. They have their own language (Entish) but can speak Quenya and other languages as well. Fangorn tells hobbits about trees which were awakened by elves, taught their language,and became kind of entish. Some of them are quite evil ('have bad hearts'). I think the Old Man Willow is an example of such a tree. Perhaps entish trees = huorns (I'm not sure) . __________________ Где найти мне сил, чтобы вернуться через века, Чтобы ты - простил?.. А трава разлуки высока...

07-09-2002, 08:27 AM	#5
Aldagrim Proudfoot Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hobbiton Posts: 328	Didn't Eru allow the Ents to be made to protect the trees from the Dwarves? __________________ I do not suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it!

07-09-2002, 08:47 AM	#6
Daniel Telcontar Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 713	Yes, because Yavanna feared that the dwarves, as well as other races, wouldn't care for the trees but cut them down as they saw fit. So Yavanna was kind of the first greenpeace member. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ Two beer or not two beer, that is the question; by Shakesbeer

09-02-2002, 03:13 AM	#7
Evisse the Blue Brightness of a Blade Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: wherever I may roam Posts: 2,685	I'm bringing back this topic because I got a question. Treebeard says at least twice that he is the oldest thing in ME ( I don't have the exact quote though) How do you reconcile this with Tom Bombadil being the oldest and the Elves being the First born? ALso, what exactly is the relationship between trees and ents? Ents are said to be the 'shepards of trees' but they themsleves can become trees and vice versa. Hoomm, confusing... __________________ And no one was ill, and everyone was pleased, except those who had to mow the grass.

09-05-2002, 12:33 PM	#8
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	I have been wondering why Iluvatar at first didn't want Aule to create the Dwarves, then let Yavanna create Ents with apparently no objection. Surely Iluvatar would have known that Men, let alone Dwarves, would cut down trees, yet he didn't do anything about it at first. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

01-11-2004, 07:50 PM	#10
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Yes, but Iluvatar wanted the Elves to be the Eldest of the Children of Iluvatar (both "biological" (Elves and Men) and "adopted" (Dwarves and Ents)), so he told Yavanna that the Ents would have to wake up at least at the same time as the Elves, so as not to mess up his plan for the seeming greater good of Arda. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

01-12-2004, 04:31 PM	#11
Lost One Haunting Spirit Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 67	I find it interesting that Yavanna is said to have sent spirits among the kelvar and olvar, i.e. to inhabit animals as well was plants, which suggest (or even downright states) that is isn't just the ents being brought into existence here. Perhaps this gets us out of all the agonising about Thorondor, Gwaihir, Huan and all the other apparently sentient animals.

01-12-2004, 11:44 PM	#12
Eruantalon Wight Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Gondor Posts: 139	All was quit and like a seed. All things waited for the first born. The Quandi, Eldar, Elves, Pointy ears! They could not come before the Eldar. Yet the where not children made by Eru. Aule had skill with speach and words. Where Yavanna didn't. Aule didn't want minions. He was anxious to have some one to teach his wonders too. He just wanted people to show the beautrys of knowledge and the earth too. Yet Eru being the boss wouldn't want anyone comming before his Eldar. So they have to wait. Yavanna sits there thinking too herself now....." There will be Dwarfs, Men, Elves and animals all in my forrest. Maybe I should have something that tends to it. But I have talk to Manwe first." Manwe and Yavannas music in the great void mingled at times. When her great trees streched out to the skys. Birds came to here trees. He like the earth and the forrest too. And didn't think it was fair. So she made them. Aule made his own people. Yet you have to remember there not Eru. So they can't actualy give beings a lot of things that Erus has. Language and awareness or real life apart from what they have made. They all have there seperate talents. They all have to work togther to get things done. Sorry if I drone on. The Ents are my favorite parts of the story! Aule being an earth Valar gives Dwarfs his talents and language. Yavanna gives ents her talents. Also great strenth. Since they come from the earth and grow slowly with great strength. Bombadillo being an Aniu ( I think) would be older than Treebeard. Yet Treebeard would be the oldest "living thing" ( as in planted or grown.) Hope that helps?