Heir of Beren? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Gil-Galad · 01-07-2004, 05:44 PM

i read somewhere that Beorn was a shapeshifter, and decendent from a men in the first age, yet the only real shapeshifter of man was Beren, so did maybe an unknown child of beren there was? i would like to see your comment

Finwe · 01-07-2004, 06:20 PM

Beren was never technically a shapeshifter. It was through Luthien's "magic" that he was able to take on the form of Draugluin, not through any of his own abilities. Beorn did indeed have ancestors dating back to the First Age, but I highly doubt that Beren was one of them.

Firefoot · 01-07-2004, 07:12 PM

I would seriously doubt that Beorn was descended from Beren. This is a rather indirect quote that I think would apply.

Quote:

"I have been among [the Riders of Rohan]," answered Aragorn. "...They have long been friends of the people of Gondor, though they are not akin to them. It was in forgotten years long ago that Eorl the Young brought them out of the North, and their kinship is rather with the Bardings of Dale, and with the Beornings of the Wood...

What this is saying is the Beornings (Beorn) are akin to the people of Rohan, who are not akin to Gondorians, and Gondorians are basically descended from Numenoreans. Beren's only great-grandchildren were Elros and Elrond, of whom Elrond became an Elf and Elros chose mortality and became the starter of the line of kings of Numenor. Another thing would be that the people of Rohan came out of the North "in forgotten years" which would be before any of the Numenoreans (Beren's "heirs"), with the possible exception of maybe Black Numenoreans (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not very familiar with this time period), came permanently to ME.

I don't know if that made any sense whatsoever but simply put Beorn almost could not have been descended from Beren.

Gil-Galad · 01-08-2004, 04:38 PM

I know that most think that beorn is decendent from the rohirrim, but it said that his people came from the north...

<font size=1 color=339966>[edited by moderator to remove personal comments]

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 7:12 PM January 09, 2004: Message edited by: Estelyn Telcontar ]

Ainaserkewen · 01-09-2004, 05:16 PM

Beorn is one of those puzzling characters that doesn't have an accessable history to look up, and isn't at all clear where he came from. Tying him with Beren, who became an animal, and then with his children, the offspring of a mortal man and a half god(you know what I mean) would make the most sense. Although throughout all the data and written history, there are no ties. A theory could be thought up to explain an unknown tie, I can't think of one at the moment. Though I sure would like to know why Beorn is so special.

<font size=1 color=339966>[edited by moderator to remove personal comments]

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 7:14 PM January 09, 2004: Message edited by: Estelyn Telcontar ]

***Sharkû*** · 01-09-2004, 05:31 PM

The Beornings and the people of the vales of the Anduin are of course related to the Eotheod, the ancestors of the Rohirrim, who came south to Calenardhon/Rohan assuredly not in 'forgotten times' but a (comparatively) meagre 500 before the Ring War. And they are quite certainly somewhat related to the Numenoreans in that they are most likely Edain who did either not cross into Beleriand before the end of the FA, or who did not go to Numenor. THis makes these people remotely akin; a relation which was realized by both parties (cf. HoME XII,2,X Of Dwarves and Men and UT - Cirion and Eorl).

The Numenoreans came to ME during the Second Age, and, as the seven ships of Elendil &co, at the beginning of the Third, which was six times as long ago as the Rohirrim.

The fact that Beorn was 'a shapeshifter', and that 'his people had lost the ability to shapeshift in later generations' means that he most likely wasn't the only one, either. I don't see what that has to do with Beren, though. After a time distance of some six millenia, it's a useless thing to contemplate, certainly so among 'commoners' as opposed to a line of kings.

01-07-2004, 05:44 PM	#1
Gil-Galad Psyche of Prince Immortal Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Above a Parapet Obvious exits are: North, South, and Dennis Posts: 4,733	Heir of Beren? i read somewhere that Beorn was a shapeshifter, and decendent from a men in the first age, yet the only real shapeshifter of man was Beren, so did maybe an unknown child of beren there was? i would like to see your comment __________________ Love doesn't blow up and get killed.

01-07-2004, 06:20 PM	#2
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Beren was never technically a shapeshifter. It was through Luthien's "magic" that he was able to take on the form of Draugluin, not through any of his own abilities. Beorn did indeed have ancestors dating back to the First Age, but I highly doubt that Beren was one of them. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

01-08-2004, 04:38 PM	#4
Gil-Galad Psyche of Prince Immortal Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Above a Parapet Obvious exits are: North, South, and Dennis Posts: 4,733	I know that most think that beorn is decendent from the rohirrim, but it said that his people came from the north... <font size=1 color=339966>[edited by moderator to remove personal comments] <font size=1 color=339966>[ 7:12 PM January 09, 2004: Message edited by: Estelyn Telcontar ] __________________ Love doesn't blow up and get killed.

01-09-2004, 05:16 PM	#5
Ainaserkewen Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A cosmic waiting room Posts: 651	Beorn is one of those puzzling characters that doesn't have an accessable history to look up, and isn't at all clear where he came from. Tying him with Beren, who became an animal, and then with his children, the offspring of a mortal man and a half god(you know what I mean) would make the most sense. Although throughout all the data and written history, there are no ties. A theory could be thought up to explain an unknown tie, I can't think of one at the moment. Though I sure would like to know why Beorn is so special. <font size=1 color=339966>[edited by moderator to remove personal comments] <font size=1 color=339966>[ 7:14 PM January 09, 2004: Message edited by: Estelyn Telcontar ] __________________ Solus... I'm eating chicken again. I ate chicken yesterday and the day before... will I be eating chicken again tomorrow? Why am I always eating chicken?

01-09-2004, 05:31 PM	#6
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,719	The Beornings and the people of the vales of the Anduin are of course related to the Eotheod, the ancestors of the Rohirrim, who came south to Calenardhon/Rohan assuredly not in 'forgotten times' but a (comparatively) meagre 500 before the Ring War. And they are quite certainly somewhat related to the Numenoreans in that they are most likely Edain who did either not cross into Beleriand before the end of the FA, or who did not go to Numenor. THis makes these people remotely akin; a relation which was realized by both parties (cf. HoME XII,2,X Of Dwarves and Men and UT - Cirion and Eorl). The Numenoreans came to ME during the Second Age, and, as the seven ships of Elendil &co, at the beginning of the Third, which was six times as long ago as the Rohirrim. The fact that Beorn was 'a shapeshifter', and that 'his people had lost the ability to shapeshift in later generations' means that he most likely wasn't the only one, either. I don't see what that has to do with Beren, though. After a time distance of some six millenia, it's a useless thing to contemplate, certainly so among 'commoners' as opposed to a line of kings.